Saturday, 11 August 2012
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The Role of the Church in "God Punishing America"
I appreciate Reverend Billy Graham. I heard him speak many years ago when he came to my college. I was struck by his humbleness and grace -- and met God there. I also appreciate the heart-felt concern he expresses in his recent open letter to America, and have noticed the behaviors he mentions. I'm disconcerted though by his carefully worded implications.His letter references old testament Bible verses and implies that the behavior of Americans is similar to that of residents of Nineveh and Sodom, ancient cities that God threatened to or did destroy according to the Old Testament. He implies -- but doesn't directly state -- that America faces similar punishment from God. His solution to America's current problem is to evangelize the unchurched in every neighborhood in America, inviting them to repent.
Graham has a long history in 'tent evangelism' and has touched many lives, my own included, and he's totally gifted in that style of ministry, but does God punish 'nations' today and is repentance by the unchurched what God requires to withhold his punishment -- or to bless the people of a nation?punish (M-W definition): to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation; to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
The idea that my suffering is my own fault and God's punishment for my sin is tempting to believe. If true, then it also must mean I have control over the circumstances of my life here on earth, but anyone with any significant life experience knows that's not true; bad things happen to good people, and take a look at the Psalms. So I've found total benefit in relationship with a living God, but freedom from punishment for my sins is not one of them. That I've noticed through experience or Bible study.
I believe that God forgives my sins, offers freedom from condemnation, rest while in relationship, and as I continue to follow Him into risk filled adventure -- a deeper faith and freedom from fear leading me to see life giving choices as alternative to sin. He has opened my eyes to feel the shame of my own sin and to recognize my desire for intimacy with Him and others, praise the living God.Saying a prayer of salvation was merely a first step on my journey -- Paul offers some precedent for the idea, but it doesn't come up in the Gospels -- as was water Baptism, Baptism in fire, and I've discovered something hugely important: transparency every day in relationship with God and others as I walk out risky choices by faith. That last one I'm finding is what leads to holiness (i.e. authenticity).
So I'm learning humbleness, patience, communication skills, more intimacy with myself and God and effective boundaries with others that I hope is the means for deeper intimacy. As I read the Bible, this personal holiness and intimacy is what God desires. Blessing and suffering, or as some mystics called it: consolation and desolation, are the circumstances God uses to invite us to deeper intimacy and maturity and perfection. This also seems the fulfillment of the law -- no longer are we punished for our sins, because Jesus took our punishment -- but the law was and is merely a tutor showing us the way to holiness. Holiness, where the law is written on our heart and as the law punishes murder, our heart reminds us that even saying Raca to our brother is the same as murder.So does calling for the unchurched in America to repent lead to freedom from punishment for a nation? That doesn't seem unworthy, but perhaps if the church (me) repented of sin, saw injustice, allowed myself to learn how to love, fed the widows and orphans and pursued holiness, then God would do the rest: call the unchurched, bless us as His children, see our own shame and unconstrained desire for Him, and experience His love individually and in community.
I, of course, think He's already doing all this; just as He called me and first loved me, he's doing the same for others. As I seek His face, He's revealing His love for me, and my lack of control. So perhaps as we, His church, become Holy -- and discover that's a life-long individual journey and a communal one too -- He will teach us how to love others rather than evangelize or condemn, fill us with His grace and continue to fulfill His plan for the earth and all His children in spite of all our plans, certainty of who God is, and lack of grace towards our fellow sinners and pilgrims on the journey.
Did you read Billy Graham's open letter? Do the sins of the unchurched lead to punishment for a nation? Is it correct to assume that God holds the nonbeliever to the same standard as the believer? What is the role of personal pursuit of Holiness in a church community? And do you think that is helpful to transforming communities or a nation?
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Comments (44)
One of the properties of a republic is that it can only function if its people are virtuous. There is a huge secular movement in America that has deliberately rejected Christianity and its moral teachings.
And that is devastating our culture.
America's Founding Fathers understood that religion was absolutely necessary for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
In short, without Christianity our human rights will disappear.
Tyranny and misery are the natural fates for people who intentionally throw away their morality and their liberty.
Simply put:
The first message preached by John the Baptist (Luke 3:3), Peter (Acts 2:38) and Paul (Acts 17:30) was "Repent and Believe". Only makes sense since it was also Jesus first message.... Matthew 4:17.
It's a message as old as time --- Proverbs 28:13 He who covers his sins shall not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall obtain mercy.
and indeed the message Jesus sent His disciples out with when they went to the villages and cities of Judea. (Mark 6:6-12) Thus it ought to be the same message we carry outwards to all nations.
As to the matter of "transparency in all matters" --- my former pastor used to say: "Honesty, without integrity, is pointless. You can be an honest thief." Just because we're honest doesn't make us righteous.
and Lastly, as to judgment / punishment, God's word declares that men are "storing up wrath against the day of judgment" (Romans 2:5-11). Even Jesus mentions a judgment coming, a separation of sheep from goats, wheat from tares, when the ill-prepared will be left out in the darkness, gnashing their teeth. (A great metaphor for intense anger if there ever was one). If God declares a day of judgment coming --- and every book in the New Testament deals with judgment in some fashion --- doesn't it make sense that we ought to believe that God means what he's said?
Better to believe and be found faithful, than to disbelieve and be found foolish.
I'm just saying.
The idea is hard to take seriously, and it's laughable for an adult to stand up in front of an audience and say it deliberately.
For one, when it comes to morality, you should access people for their actions, not their beliefs. If your criteria for how moral someone depends on how much they follow your religion, then you're not in a place to make moral judgements. And despite economic woes, America has seen great strides recently in ethically-relevant areas. We used to take twelfth place on the UN's index of human development, and our recent actions to taking care of our poor and uneducated have brought us up to 4th place.
Secondly, what type of unjust god would punish people for the actions of others?
Sounds like Billy has gone a tad bit more to the right. I don't think nations can be strong and well structured simply because they become Christian. I mean, look at the millions of people denied health care, and the millions of Christians who think people like that deserve to be treated that way. That isn't making our nation stronger, and when people go to the E.R., and can't pay, who do you think pays? You're already paying, just denying many hard working people access to preventative care. Like my hair dresser who hates Obama care, but got a mastectomy through a government grant. You are already paying. Turning back the clock won't change what you pay, through higher health care costs. I came to Christ through Billy Graham, 24 years ago. His message of simplicity somehow left me crying for hours one night. Thereafter, every chance I got to see him on t.v., I was right there. I believe he's a wonderful, God seeking and loving man, and I've read all his books, including Franklin's and Ruth's. And I respect a man who will support his Presbyterian wife in raising her children in that church because that's where her heart was. Doesn't get much better than that, right? I think he's just trying to shake us up a bit, make us check our hearts, and serve our community. I don't think he's speaking in a bias form, though it sounds like it. I left mormonism because of him, and will always hold him close to my heart.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - "There is a huge secular movement in America that has deliberately rejected Christianity" Do you have any sense why this might be? Its interesting to me and subject of lots of debate.
Can your last statement be true without your first one being true? And why do you think the first statement is true...do you have an example in mind?
"without Christianity our human rights will disappear."
"Tyranny and misery are the natural fates for people who intentionally throw away their morality and their liberty."
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - Thanks for your perspective! Interesting stats too.
@Pollypinks@xanga - I know...I totally appreciate Billy from my hearing him speak...roughly 30 years ago (good gracious).
My conclusion (I realized after I'd written the post) on his letter is that its a pretty standard fund raising letter: define the problem, explain your solution, show early successes of your solution, and make the ask.
What stirred me is that I saw commentary about the letter in the Huffington post and they stated the implications in his letter linked to the old testament punishment verses without critical analysis. It seems a bandwagon topic to some who are willing to jump on it so thought I'd explore it with you all.
Thanks for adding to the conversation.
@JulieMillerFan@xanga - regarding 'repent and believe' right on!! ...and that's a message for each of us, churched and unchurched.
"Just because we're honest doesn't make us righteous." not sure what you mean by this...not sure if I've ever met an honest thief.
And for judgement, yes! We each both jew and gentile, churched and unchurched will be judged (perhaps after death...Jesus did not come to judge us here on earth Jn 12:47). And check out Rom 2:5-11 in the ASV (below). It seems Paul is talking about harsh judgement for those who are fractious or partisan and offers eternal life for those that are joyful (one definition of the Greek word used there), which is interesting to me as a separate thought. I've noticed some in the churched can be tempted to be fractious, eg, 'if you're not a Christian you're going to hell.' That seems very partisen...you're either in the club or your not.
One thought in the post, however, is to suggest that behavior of the unchurched doesn't lead to punishment for the 'nation.' It may lead to individual punishment (perhaps in the next life) as I interpret the Romans verses, but I don't see that it necessarily means punishment here on earth...nor for an entire nation.
Be interested to continue the conversation...thanks for commenting.
but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
Billy seems to have gone back to his early days. I think maybe when Ruth was alive she had influence on him, because Presbyterians just don't play those legalistic games, and further, don't believe all the Bible literally. People thought he was slow in the brain. I just thought he was kind. Maybe I'm the slow one.
@JulieMillerFan@xanga - And I'm not saying there's not huge value in reaching out to people who are unchurched with a message of belief and repentance...and I'm confident that Billy Graham is focused on doing that with love!
I guess I noticed that Graham's message felt manipulative to me by implying connection between behavior of unchurched with OT punishment of a nation...and wanted to explore my feelings about that you all!
Thanks again!
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - Actions are the result of beliefs. So if you determine a lack of morality (being unchurched, as Billy Graham put it) then actions will also lack morality.
@god_stories@xanga - The Bible contains story after story of people and nations who have rejected God's moral teachings.
They do so because they are in a state of rebellion against what is right and good. Secular people refuse to accept moral limits on their thinking and behavior.@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - "In short, without Christianity our human rights will disappear. "
Yes. It's hard to show this to those who are indifferent to Christianity, though. When people push God out, things
willget worse and less free. Germany in the late 1800's was called the freest country... then look what happened.
@monobeam@xanga - It it were not for Christianity the world would look like Afghanistan.
That is an obvious lesson from history.It is such raw ignorance to cast Christianity as THE impediment to the development of science, art and civil society.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga -
"Actions are the result of beliefs."That's true. But no action is exclusive to people of a certain belief (or vise versa).
Contrary to what you constantly pontificate, Christianity didn't invent morality. Not even close.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - YES
why is this such a troublesome concept for a believer? I understand why unbelievers would reject it, but then that hardly has bearing since by definition the unbeliever would reject everything attributed to God. but let's take a look at some fundamental questions, asked between believers to determine if such implications should be dismissed out of hand or scorned in the first place.
1) has the nature of God changed since the writing of the Old Testament? 2) has the nature of man changed since the writing of the Old Testament?3) did Christ abolish the law of God, rendering any judgement or punishment moot?
the answer to all three of these questions is an irrevocable "no!"
If God, before establishing a way of reaching out to men through other men, chose to destroy a city (or several) of unbelievers, people who may have never heard of Him, and after establishing the nation of Israel, put another such nation on the chopping block giving them the opportunity, through Jonah, to repent then why is it so horribly outside of the pale of possibility that his judgement and wrath could fall on a nation today which has been given the blessing of his gracious hand and revelation and rejected it? The God who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and threatened to destroy Nineveh is the same God who through Ezekiel (Ezekiel 18:30-32) pleaded with man to repent and turn from sin and declared that He took no delight in the death of ANYONE, some translations saying the Lord takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
All things (and people) were made by Him and for Him. Sin is the denial of that ownership and origin. Any concerted effort to live as though God doesn't matter is living in sin and at enmity with our Maker. If we deny the truth and make up our own version of morality without God, we will suffer the consequences of living outside of our design and true purpose - to love, serve, and enjoy God.
"Be sure your sins will find you out" is the warning God gives us. Knowing Him is blessed, eternity without Him is hell.
My god you people are brainwashed morons. So sad.
@god_stories can you believe i knew this was your writing before I looked to the side to see the author?
I believe that God forgives my sins,
offers freedom from condemnation, rest while in relationship, and as I
continue to follow Him into risk filled adventure -- a deeper faith and
freedom from fear leading me to see life giving choices as alternative
to sin.Loved this
I think love is the answer. I feel like the whole desire to get converts is bull crap. We have failed to represent Christ and tried to clean each other up rather than simply being authentic, loving people. We hide behind our talents and things we find acceptable and choose not to disclose our imperfections. The view on non-christians by this 'secular move' is our own fault for not being transparent people. I don't think we take responsibility for our actionsas a people.
I do not think God is punishing America because, as a nation, we are not serving Him. I think, since the new covenant, we are not under this curse... It is just where I am now in my understanding. I'm sure I could brush up a little bit on the topic.
@monobeam@xanga - In reference to your comment on "When people push God out . . .". things do get worse. Just look at what happened in the school systems accross the nation when the Bible was "put out". It has allowed the teaching of immoral tolerence and even made laws under the name of "civil rights", supporting what God has definitely called Immoral.
@xXrEMmUsXx@xanga - I aggre with two things you have said. . .
1) The answer is definitely love. "For God so loved the World". The love of Christ is all anyone needs. Putting my faith in Christ was my first step in having "life more abundantly", "everlasting life". The chance to live forever. Given in "love" and accepted by "faith". I do wish I could convert the whole world to have this type of love. So, seeing someone convert to Christianity is no BS.
2) I also believe that we are not under the curse of God at this time. Things that happen, happen to the good and the bad. This is brought on by the fact that Satan is called "the prince and power of the air, the spirit that worketh in the children of disobience". I do believe in the final judgement of God on this earth because He will set up a new earth when He returns. God will clean it all up, oh happy day.
@mr_randyc - Ok, so saying conversion is total crap may have been a bit extreme on my part.
it is obvious i don't agree with the way we 'convert' people. There is scare tactic... fear rather than love that just makes me crazy. I am completely finished with this was of evangelism that produces anxiety ridden Christians looking for a way out of hell and fearing every little mistake that will cause them to be separated from God.
My apologies. I guess what I really mean is that, I'm tired of conversion for that sake of conversion. I'm ready to see people fall in love with God, for who He is... rather than salvation from something worse.