Monday, 04 March 2013
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Recovering Catholicism: The Delicate Balance of Tradition and Personal Beliefs
With Pope Benedict XVI's recent resignation, I cringed. I always cringe when I see anything in the headlines concerning the Catholic Church. It's not just because it all tends to be negative as of late or because it calls to question my Catholic past -- because I'm not ashamed of it or try to hide it. I always get asked by someone, "Are you still Catholic?" My response to the question always brings on additional questions: "Yes and no."My history with the Catholic Church started before my conception. My parents were introduced via an early 1980's equivalent of a Catholic "Christian Mingle" pen pal program. My dad had immigrated from Nigeria almost 10 years prior and was living in Boston; my mom was a well established registered nurse in Chicago. In 1984 they were married and in 1986 yours truly popped out.
In line with Catholic tradition, I was baptized as an infant by sprinkling. I attended Catholic schools and continued with taking sacraments -- for non-Catholics, the seven are Baptism, Eucharist, Penance, Confirmation, Marriage, Ordination, Last Rites. Also in line with Catholic tradition, I was taught to listen to priests, but was never encouraged to read the Bible. Even though I went to a Catholic school, not once do I remember ever opening a Bible there. We had texts and workbooks created by the Catholic Church with verses and concepts in it. Words like "devotionals," "relationship," "discipling," "scripture memorization," "seminary," "fellowshipping" and "vocational bible school" weren't even in my vocabulary.When I turned 13, I started to question my allegiance to the denomination that my family clung to. I vividly remember having questions about my faith and the doctrine of the church that I wanted answered but, due to the lack of a properly trained and patient apologists in my social circle or parish at the time, I rebelled and decided to take a break from partaking in further Catholic sacraments until I felt rooted in the whole religion thing.
I'm beyond grateful to my mom for letting me figure it all out myself and not imposing her beliefs onto me. I'll totally admit I went into the whole situation blindly. I didn't really have someone to guide me on such a journey. A lot of church-hopping and denomination exploration later, I found myself in a series of churches that taught me how to establish my own relationship with God and not adhere to what was dictated by a man in another country or the Pope.Being a "recovering Catholic" is an on-going process. Technically I'm still a Catholic and I have no intentions of going through the entire process of even trying to get officially excommunicated, because it isn't that important to me or my relationship. I am still learning new "Christian" vocabulary and concepts that I wasn't exposed to as a youth. I'm gaining new "recovering Catholic" and Christian friends and fellowshipping regularly.
When it comes to my family, for the most part they are aware of my "recovering Catholic" status and they respect it. Out of respect to my staunch Catholic father, I don't publish my non-Catholic status. I will still go to a mass for special occasions, like funerals. When I go, I even take communion, though I don't adhere doctrinal to the transformation of the wine and host. Rituals like "Ash Wednesday" and "Lent" I do incorporate into my "relationship" and use the times to remember my physical mortality and fast.
If anything, taking a "break" from Catholicism helped me to appreciate the ritualistic components of the very traditional faith. Some churches outside of the denomination even call to question my baptism and it's validity. I know recovering Catholics and other people who have changed denominations that were baptized as children seek another baptism as an adult and I feel it's fine personally. Do whatever you need to do for your relationship. For me, I'm perfectly ok with the idea of "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."As I get older and will eventually get married, I'm sure I'll be faced with the idea of if I'll raise my kids in a Catholic church. While I'm not opposed to the idea, I've decided to cross that bridge when I get there. I feel as if my mom did what was best. She made the introduction and let me figure out the whole relationship for myself. What more could I have asked for?
Have you ever heard of the term "recovering Catholic"? Have you ever switched Christian denominations or done a religious conversion? Were you raised Catholic but currently practice something else? How do you reconcile your religious past with your present beliefs and circumstances? What is the best way to respect your spiritual upbringing if you've chosen to go on a different path?
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- From: LadyofIlluminati@xanga
- About Me: I'm Nina. Currently working on my Masters along with doing some plus sized modeling when I get time. I'm taking the road less traveled when it comes to life, love, and the pursuit of happiness. Got Jesus in the driver's seat and I'm riding shot gun!
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Comments (42)
I've actually had the opposite experience. I've heard the term "recovering Protestant" from many friends who are former Protestant pastors, ministers, missionaries, and people who were raised in Protestant families, etc. but became Catholic after learning about what the Catholic church actually believes, but never the other way around. I'd say it's important to make sure you understand what you believe and what your past beliefs were about so you can explain it to those who have questions. Make sure you understand that different people encounter God through different paths. Show respect to those who may not respect your decision, and hopefully they will be moved by your kindness and love.
Nice post! I've heard the term, but perhaps oddly don't consider myself a 'recovering Catholic' even though I was raised Catholic and have found life-giving relationship with God through the Protestant tradition.
Maybe its b/c I've found benefit in many Christian (and other faith) traditions. I appreciate the protestant tradition for introducing me to a dynamic relationship with God and appreciate the Catholic tradition for offering deep insight into the spiritual journey. I've heard Richard Rohr say that the protestants have done a good job introducing people to Christ and Catholics do a good job exploring the life-journey after the initial introduction. And its interesting to notice the unique experience offered in the different protestant traditions...and somewhat similarly though fewer in the various Catholic movements, eg Charismatic.
And while I still attend a protestant church (a relatively new one for me), I find more encouragement from the Catholic experience of the spiritual journey (I guess really the mystics, many of whom lived life in Catholic community and tradition).
I've heard of the term before for sure. I hope that you recover soon; we miss you!
Please also pray and ask Jesus about whether or not to receive the Eucharist when you occasionally attend Mass. If you do not believe that the Eucharist is truly His Body and Blood, and if you do not consider yourself to be in full communion with the Church, how can you say "Amen" to the minister's statement "The Body of Christ" when you do not actually believe it? How can you take communion when you are not in communion? Jesus asks the people of God to worship "in spirit and truth" (John 4:24); while I understand you take communion for the sake of your parents, please consider putting God first in this. There is nothing wrong or shameful with crossing your arms over your chest and asking for a blessing instead. If your father asks, tell him, "I haven't been to confession first"; hopefully this will be satisfactory enough for him and it wouldn't be a lie, either. I'm not a priest yet, so of course I have no authority in this matter; I'm asking you to pray about all this as a brother and someone who wants to help you love Christ more. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life after all, so please seek the Truth and live it in everything that you do. God bless you; I will be praying for you.
-Jacob
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga -
I agree with this comment. As a recovering Catholic myself it's really important to look at the doctrine of the Church, especially when discussing sacraments. Catholicism does stand, itself, apart from other Christian religions. It may seem similar, but it is in fact an entirely separate religion whose teachings and philosophies greatly differ from our brother Protestants. Out of respect for the Church, and it's belief in Transubstantiation, I would encourage you to cross your arms in any Orthodox church, instead of receiving communion. Catholics themselves are asked to abstain from receiving if they are not in a proper state to receive. This can mean that they are in a state of mortal sin, or it can be as simple as they are doubting the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It takes true inward reflection, a deeply personal decision on whether or not you receive. But if you cannot consider yourself a full-on YES as Catholic, you should not receive the Eucharist. This isn't meant to exclude you, it's simply a belief that the Church holds as sacred. It is one of the MOST important aspects of our faith. It's very disrespectful to us for you to receive if you don't believe.
That being said....
As you continue your journey of discovery in different churches, I'd invite you to really truly dive deeper into Catholic beliefs. It may feel like Scripture isn't as huge for the Church, but it is. It truly is. And there are a lot of books, a lot of study, and research into scripture that could really change your heart. It is unusual that you would not have been asked to open a bible in your upbringing--it is a huge part of the religion; as big a piece as tradition.
There are a lot of outstanding questions that this journey will surface. I think the only way to reconcile some of these inconsistencies is to pray in deep mediation, and look for your peace. Where does it come from? Is it from your personal relationship with God? If it is, let Him guide you. Let him place you where He desires you, not where you desire you.
My last piece of advice is to find a spiritual director--yes, a Catholic spiritual director. Especially one who would be willing to go to those places of doubt; someone who can be the voice of truth to you. Someone you can be honest with--someone you can say "quite frankly I don't believe that" to, and who will still be gentle with you.
Many prayers, and much love.
The only time I've heard the term "recovering Catholic", and the definition most relevant to me, is those who become an atheist or leave Christianity all together. I'll admit, were it not Catholicism, or the Orthodox, I couldn't imagine remaining in Christianity; but that's just me.
You mention, in passing, that a problem for you is the perception that what you ought to "adhere to[…]was dictated by a man in another country or the Pope." Remember that the Church is the Bride of Christ; when the Church speaks on matters of faith and morals, She is guided by the Holy Spirit. This is why nearly all Christian denominations recognize the first seven Ecumenical Councils. Likewise, the Pope, as the successor of Saint Peter, has similar powers of inerrancy. Remember the Christ's words:
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Now, this isn't to say that those within the hierarchy aren't capable of sin or error, simply that, when speaking dogmatically on issues of faith and morals, they are inerrant because they are guided by the Holy Spirit, much as those who wrote scripture was (after all, I don't think any Christian would view Isiah or Moses as simply men dictating how to adhere to our Faith).
This is why there was no immediate need to do bible studies in Sunday school – you have your whole lifetime for that; the far more important thing is to bring you understanding of what the Church, has come to know for certain in Her 2,000 some years of existence.
Lastly, no bible reading in Sunday school does not mean a negation of bible reading. Catholics read the entirety of the bible, front to back, every three years or so. There is a reading from Old Testament, New Testament sans Gospel, and the Gospel every single Mass.
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga – Wonderfully put; I agree wholeheartedly.
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga - I'm not trying to start any kind of trouble, but the Protestant perspective is almost uniformly opposite the Roman Catholic perspective on Communion. For Nina to take Communion anywhere with any body of believers is encouraged. When I attend a Catholic Mass I do not take Communion, but this is the Roman Catholic Church separating itself from the rest of Christendom. I do not have a problem with my brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church, I am and have always been accepting of them, as true Christian family. It is not they, Nina, or I, or even the Protestant Reformers, but rather a modern Roman Catholic Church. I would never deny, a truly regenerate believer in Jesus Christ, the Lord's table. That would be to misjudge the body of Christ, and I believe a grave wrong. You may request I respect the RCC's polity, and I always will, but I will always say it is wrong.
I've known a great many recovering Roman Catholics. I'd like to ask them to look for the depth in one of the oldest denominations and reconsider. I have even tried in the past, but I'm finding fewer and fewer reasons to ask for reconsideration.
Have you ever heard of the term "recovering Catholic"? No.
Have you ever switched Christian denominations or done a religious conversion? No.Were you raised Catholic but currently practice something else? I have always been Catholic.How do you reconcile your religious past with your present beliefs and circumstances? Actually what I struggle with is the fact that I am in a serious relationship with a non-Catholic. What is the best way to respect your spiritual upbringing if you've chosen to go on a different path? Do not bash it in front of people who are still a part of it. It is hard for me that non-Catholics say we are never doing enough of the right things. There are Catholic versions of the protestant words, for example "devotionals," and "scripture memorization,"translates to "meditations." "Relationship," could be "walk with God," or "prayer life." "Discipling," might be related to "formation," "practicing the sacraments," or "living the Gospel," or "fasting." I had heard of "seminary," for those considering the vocation of the priesthood because my father had gone before discerning out into marriage. "Fellowshipping" might be "prayer partners," "accountability partners," "retreats," "women's, men's, or different age discussion groups" or "meeting in the church social hall." "Vocational bible school" might have been "CCD," or "discernment trips." Vacation bible school was something I attended but with my non-Catholic friends. There are Bible studies and Theology study groups happening with my church, college, and young adult groups every week.@nixxyknox@xanga - can you help me understand why you as an RCC member would be offended if I as a faithful follower of Jesus, who doesn't 'get' transubstantiation, would choose to receive communion? I understand @Ancient_Scribe@xanga - encouragement to pray about it, but not your feelings of offense. I've researched and prayed about transubstantiation and totally honor the RCCs beliefs (after all God is a mystery), but I don't buy it.
I've had a few spiritual directors over the years, some catholic some not. My current spiritual director is a catholic nun. I personally think your recommendation is great advice, and perhaps I'm reading into what you wrote, but it seems you think somehow a spiritual director will reveal the truth you believe about the RCC. That's not been the case for me...yet
I do see the value in many Christian denominations (and honestly other faith traditions too, perhaps similar to Thomas Merton)...and glimpse shadow and light in each (through the lens in which I experience truth). I suspect that'd be the case for anyone honestly pursuing the spiritual journey as any doctrine/teaching necessarily can not reveal all truth...as the kingdom of God resides within...and not on any piece of paper (upon which doctrine is written).
Perhaps the catholic (universal) Church referenced in the NT can be extrapolated to mean all communities seeking relationship with God rather than just RCC (as there were a handful of Christian communities existing at that time including Rome). But that would depend on one's views about Jesus...advocating freedom or exclusivity! btw - every Christian denomination can trace its roots back to Peter...whether through the RCC or another orthodox church...all sprang from the same root (see pentarchy for more details).
God bless you on your own personal spiritual journey...we've each our own.
@Such_are_you@xanga - I realize that the Protestant perspective is almost uniformly opposite that of the Catholic; hence the term "Protestant" and the lack of communion between the two Christian bodies, sad as this is.
Asking that those not in full communion with the Church refrain from receiving the Eucharist is hardly a "modern Roman Catholic Church" practice; this goes back to the earliest days. Only the baptized within the Church were allowed to partake in communion, and this is still the practice; those who followed heretical perspectives of Christianity (Arians, etc.) were not permitted to receive communion, and after the Orthodox break neither group allowed communion for the other because there *was* no full communion between them. Again, even within the Church herself those who are in a state of sin or are otherwise not in full communion (perhaps because of some spiritual struggles they are experiencing or other personal reasons realized after personal discernment) are asked not to receive. None of this is done with the intention of excluding others but rather encouraging all people to worship in "spirit and truth" as Jesus asks of us. How can someone who is not in full communion with the Body partake in the very Sacrament that makes us One Body?
The Eucharist, in the Catholic Church, is more than simply the Lord's Table, around which ALL a permitted to gather, even non-Catholics. But the bread and wine are also the Lamb of God, the Body and Blood of Christ; just as in the Old Testament, only members of the household were permitted to eat of the Passover lamb and to share that sacred meal. This was not intended to exclude others but rather to recognize that the meal was for those who were in covenant with God and were sharing in His covenant. Today we have the sad situation of a Christianity united, for the most part in one baptism--which the Church recognizes as completely valid (converts to Catholicism rarely are re-baptized) but then most Protestants don't believe that the Eucharist is even a Sacrament, let alone His true and real Body and Blood. What's more is most Protestants reject the notion of Holy Orders being a Sacrament, that the very authority a priest has to even minister the Eucharist is not true and valid. I do not say these things to exclude, reject or otherwise injure my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I say them because it is a painful but true reality we must, for the sake of Christ, not sweep under the carpet.
At the Catholic Mass, when a minister holds up the Host and says to you, "The Body of Christ," this is exactly like the moment in the Gospel when Jesus says to Peter, "Who do you say that I am?" When a Catholic says, "Amen," they are saying, "You are the Christ." How can a Protestant say that with any honesty? The reason why an Orthodox Christian is able to receive the Eucharist in the Catholic Church (in certain circumstances) is because their Amen is an authentic one; their "amen" is the same as ours. By closing communion and restricting it to those in full (or very nearly full, as with the Orthodox Churches) we are not attempting to bar anyone from Christ for the sake of exclusion or because we perceive anyone as inferior; rather we seek to keep people honest before God so that they are not eating and drinking their own condemnation (1 Cor. 11:27-29) by basing their moment of communion on dishonesty, rather than truth. The Church (myself among her) requests this of those not in communion with her not because she wishes to exclude, but because she loves such people. I offered my thoughts and comments to Nina because I love her and I care about her and her soul. To encourage those who are not in full communion with the Church, especially those who do not share her beliefs regarding the Eucharist to begin with, to not receive the Eucharist when they attend Mass is not based on hate, but love. I'm sorry if you have a difficult time seeing it that way.
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you...For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."
"Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
-John 6:53, 55-56, 60
@Such_are_you@xanga - In your post of 14 lines you referred to yourself 15 times.
Clearly, your brand of Protestantism is about you and what you think.Catholicism is about Jesus and what He thinks.
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga - @Such_are_you@xanga - -
@god_stories@xanga -
To your question...why would I be offended if a non-Catholic received communion, or someone who doesn't believe in transubstantiation receiving communion: I think the answer lies much in Ancient_Scribe's answer to Such_are_you. The Catholic religion is not the same as Protestant religions. In it's root philosophies and values, and it's beliefs regarding the sacraments, they stand apart from Protestantism. Like he says:
"Again, even within the Church herself those who are in a state of sin or are otherwise not in full communion (perhaps because of some spiritual struggles they are experiencing or other personal reasons realized after personal discernment) are asked not to receive. None of this is done with the intention of excluding others but rather encouraging all people to worship in "spirit and truth" as Jesus asks of us. How can someone who is not in full communion with the Body partake in the very Sacrament that makes us One Body?"
I suppose my answer to you will be different though, because my question lies in the intent of your heart. What are you hoping to accomplish by receiving the Eucharist at a Catholic Church? Is it that you want to be included? Is it that you are used to going at your own protestant church and you are assuming that it is the same?
It's not the same, and we aren't trying to be "exclusive". Quite the opposite. We are born with a desire to receive Christ! Not only in our hearts, but our minds, our souls and radically, in the Catholic Church we believe that you can receive him into our bodies as well. We believe it, every Sunday, we are not just eating bread and remembering Christ, we are receiving Him, His true self, His Body and His Blood in the Eucharist, through transubstantiation. Of course all human hearts are naturally desirous of this. God the Father desires us, and so we desire Him. However, it is a gift that needs to be protected, and kept sacred. I am offended when Christians who know the Church teaching and "don't buy it" receive anyway because it essentially means, "Yeah, well. I don't believe it, and I am going to receive anyway because I don't care what you believe. My beliefs are between me and God."
That is a rebellious spirit with which to receive communion. And more importantly...that goes against the communion of our Church. It goes against our fundamental teaching that this religion, our relationship with God, our love that we find in the Eucharist is in communion with everyone else. We receive together because we believe together. It's much bigger than individual relationship, it's universal Church. And more than that We believe. Amen. We believe. We believe in the real presence. And if you don't, that's fine. Receive bread at your Church. If you truly believed the gift you were receiving it should bring you to your knees. It should be life-altering. It should radically transform your life and your heart. It should be the cornerstone of your life. It's not just a symbol. It's reality. It's truth.
So again...it's a matter of respecting our beliefs. We want you to receive. We want you to desire God, to be committed to Truth. To search and discern and to find answers to your questioning hearts. We want that. But be respectful. Just as we are respectful to our own religion, and we will abstain if we aren't ready to receive.
To your second point. "I personally think your recommendation is great advice, and perhaps I'm reading into what you wrote, but it seems you think somehow a spiritual director will reveal the truth you believe about the RCC. That's not been the case for me...yet
I do see the value in many Christian denominations (and honestly other faith traditions too, perhaps similar to Thomas Merton)...and glimpse shadow and light in each (through the lens in which I experience truth). I suspect that'd be the case for anyone honestly pursuing the spiritual journey as any doctrine/teaching necessarily can not reveal all truth...as the kingdom of God resides within...and not on any piece of paper (upon which doctrine is written)."
I don't know with the first part. Everyone is asking different answers. I don't know what "truth" means to you. But there is black and white truth. Yes, all religions and all faiths have beautiful elements to add to our faith, to deepen it. (After all, experience of God is universal, it's not just individual. There is beauty that informs us about God in all religions, because God wills us to know him regardless of religion.) But Catholics do believe in ultimate Truth, and we find it through the Church. We find it in our tradition, as well as our scripture. Sure, some elements must be experienced, and cannot be written down. But Truth does exist. While each of our journeys are different, and we learn truth in different ways, There must be a light. There must be direction. There must be guidance. And we find that in the Church.
God is beauty. God is love. :) Prayers and Thanksgiving for you today.L
@nixxyknox@xanga - "How can someone who is not in full communion with the Body partake in the very Sacrament that makes us One Body?"
"there is black and white truth." "Catholics do believe in ultimate Truth, and we find it through the Church."
"We receive together because we believe together. It's much bigger than individual relationship, it's universal Church."
This style of belief is not only found in the RCC, but in protestant denominations too. The Merriam-Webster definition of fundamentalism: attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles. Its found in lots of communities like catholic, protestant, Islamic, even patriotic Americans. Fundamentalism in my experience damages relationships and communities rather than build community.
Did you read my blog post about my personal exploration of transubstantiation? Its an honest exploration of this point of doctrine/teaching. And I honestly come to a different conclusion...based on the same scriptures...and traditions (did my research in a catholic library using books written on the transubstantiation by catholic writers).
"I am offended when Christians who know the Church teaching and "don't buy it" receive anyway because it essentially means, "Yeah, well. I don't believe it, and I am going to receive anyway because I don't care what you believe. My beliefs are between me and God." I haven't heard this from others...hmm. It seems to me earnest followers of Jesus diligently seeking deeper relationship with a Holy God can disagree on beliefs derived from the same scripture, including topics like Communion. Gee whiz, without humble pursuit of truth that includes doubt there seems little room for authentic relationship with a living God...all that's left is, well, fundamentalism.
"But Truth does exist. While each of our journeys are different, and we learn truth in different ways, There must be a light. There must be direction. There must be guidance. And we find that in the Church.
God is beauty. God is love." Amen to that. And since Christ hasn't yet returned, the bride, His Holy Church (which I interpret to mean all communities that authentically pursue relationship with Jesus) must not yet be fully prepared and perhaps only see truth through a glass darkly. And given that truth...I can only humbly work out my salvation with fear and trembling taking as little offense of others honest pursuit of truth as I'm resourced by a living God to accomplish!
I've been a Lutheran since my baptism and joining of my church in 1997. There are times where I consider changing to a more traditional and perhaps orthodox church, but to be honest what keeps me at my congregation is the people and how huge of an involvement I have there.
I've never heard the term "recovering Catholic" or even "receovering Protestant/Christian/whatever".
Hmm. The above comments are incredibly fascinating to me. Great reading and learning.
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga -
61
When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
62
Whatthen if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.When taken out of context it certainly sounds like Jesus is talking about eating flesh, and drinking blood, but you stop too soon. You stop at John 6:60 when you should continue to John 6:61 through at least 63. Jesus explains to his disciples and apostles that he is using flesh and blood to express spiritual truth. "...the flesh profits; is worth; means nothing..." Jesus is using a human thing to explain a spiritual thing. Jesus is life, life giving, all humanity needs.
I know the Roman Catholic Church recognizes that Jesus is using hyperbole when he says in Matthew 18:8-9
8
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast
itfrom you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed,
rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the
everlasting fire.
9
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast
itfrom you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
You don't believe and you will not teach that Jesus is telling you to cut yourself up, and start tossing pieces away. You understand that Jesus is saying in the most powerful language that sin is a serious matter which takes the most serious attention. So am I truly to believe that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't teach a Christ follower should cut himself up, or that a Christ follower should cut up fellow Christ follower, but the Roman Catholic Church does teach cutting up and passing out passing around Jesus body?? I don't believe it. It simply isn't believable. (And yes I know the Roman Catholic Church doesn't literally say "We're cutting up Jesus and tossing him around." I'm simply making a point in a very obvious way, but it should be unnecessary for me to have to be so obvious).
The men, hearing Jesus teach, who took him literally were the one who both took offense at him, and gave offense to the Lord (by rejecting faith in him). The message of John 6:53-63 is a spiritual message. and the lesson of Matthew 18:8-9 is of a similar kind. The Romans Catholic Church holds to something which is not believable. This is why the Protestants don't believe what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, on this matter.
Ah, well, I'll continue to shepherd ex-Catholics away from a tradition I believe is a solid tradition at heart, because a bunch of men take things too literal. I don't ever go looking to lead Roman Catholics from their tradition. They come looking for teachers like me. It truly does sadden me. There are many thing I like about Roman Catholicism. Ah well, we know reform does come. Roman Catholics don't roast in Hell any longer for eating meat on Fridays, so there is hope.
@thirst2@xanga - "Lastly, no bible reading in Sunday school does not mean a negation of bible reading. Catholics read the entirety of the bible, front to back, every three years or so. There is a reading from Old Testament, New Testament sans Gospel, and the Gospel every single Mass."
There is a fixed subset of scripture read in Sunday Mass that repeats every 3 years for a total of 468 unique scripture readings, but that doesn't include the entire Bible, in fact, quite a small subset.
Just for your information. I thought the same at one time, but discovered it wasn't true, and found it helpful to know.
@Such_are_you@xanga - The Bible was given to the world by the Catholic Church.
So to say that the Church doesn't understand the meaning of the Bible is like you saying that J. K. Rowling doesn't understand the meaning of her Harry Potter books.Another definite red flag is when someone claiming to be Christian says like you did: "They come looking for teachers like me."
People truly seeking Christ are interested in what Christ teaches not what you teach.
This is because human beings are fallen creatures and have absolutely no idea what spirituality really is.
@god_stories@xanga – Thanks; I really appreciate the correction. I Had a feeling I ought to double check that one in spite of my confidence.
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove@xanga - You seem to be very unaware of church history, my friend. The bible was completed by God in 95 A. D. when The Revelations of Jesus Christ were penned by John the Apostle. Then man took upon himself to determine which books were to be included in the canon. It is true that the Catholic church in various counsels included or excluded text by inspiration, but the canon of scripture was closed before there even was a ROMAN catholic church (or Constantinople church). The word "catholic" in Greek means "universal" or "in general" as distinct from Roman Catholicism. In the 4th and 5th century, the Roman Catholic church usurped the meaning of the word to include themselves and exclude others. At that point they became what THEY would call THEMSELVES universal but it was not that way originally.
Ignatius of Antioch
The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term "Catholic Church" is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."[11][12][13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_term_%22Catholic%22
The idea is that I could say I wrote "War and Peace" because Leo Tolstoy and I were neighbors. That would not make it true, and it would not allow me to use that in my resume. But the Roman Catholic church has done exactly that. Because they use the same word bishop, and catholic, does NOT give them rights to usurp any more than satan had the right to usurp from Adam the nations and headship of the earth. Dan
Wow lots of discussion that seems to me to be about choices. I have some Catholic friends that I totally admire spiritually. I am amazed that in Greensburg, IN there is a Catholic Church that has someone in the prayer room praying 24-7. Now, that is commitment and says a lot about needing help from above. Really, when we get to heaven, there will be no distinction between all the various denominations. God looks at the heart. I like what such_are_you says about the body being a figure of speech. We are not to hurt our bodies but it is really serious if a part of our body offends our walk with the Lord. It is better if that part of our body wasn't there. Good news...the Holy Spirit can help us be in control of our bodies that we will not offend the Holy Spirit. It is a close walk with Christ. It is surrendering to Him each and every day in every situation that arises....we look to Him for answers in how to deal with it...May the Lord help each of us to not point fingers but to encourage each other along the way and reach out to others to tell the "Good News". Blessings, sheila
@danPs73@xanga - The Bible was commissioned by Pope Damasus I around 380AD. It was translated from the mother tongues into Latin by Saint Jerome (per the order of Pope Damasus I).
The Bible was commissioned by the Church because so many "They come looking for teachers like me," phonies had mucked up Christianity with so much trash.
The Bible was an authoritative statement by the Catholic Church as to which literature actually comprised the authoritative Gospel teachings of Jesus Christ.
People who fancy themselves "teachers" have no ecclesiastical authority whatsoever to interpret Holy Scripture. The human being alone is incapable of deriving authentic meaning from holy scripture.
That's why the Church who was instructed by Christ, is the only authoritative teacher on the meaning of holy scripture.
Catholics are not taught to derive their own understanding of scripture. They are taught to understand scripture through the mind of the Church which is in fact, the mind of Christ.
And that is why Catholicism is so exciting. For Protestantism, like the rest of humanity, is a fractured mess of differing personal opinions.
A Catholic, however, can learn the actual teachings of Jesus Christ.
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove@xanga - About all I can say with regards to your Catholic church is, that for your sake, I pray you are right. You are correct that the Protestant movement is fractured but for us, the vicar of Christ is us, a direct relationship with Christ Himself, no mediators. We are able to come boldly into the throne of Grace on His authority. Dan
@danPs73@xanga - Jesus was adamant about unity.
Yet the very DNA of Protestantism is division and faction.
Regardless of what you've been told about the Catholic Church, the endless disunity and factionalism that is Protestantism makes it completely counter to Jesus' Gospel teachings.
So if Protestantism by its very nature requires the rejection of the unity demanded by Christ, its doctrines cannot be authentically Christian.
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove@xanga - I think what you are saying is that unity is the priority, unity of doctrine. That is exactly what the Jehovahs Witnesses are saying; they are the unified church. If it is based on population curve, then yes you have the volume, however, narrow is the road and only a few find it.
It also becomes rather crowded when one considers the Queen of Heaven in the midst of the Quarinity. The prophets remark about the Queen of Heaven;
Jeremiah 7:1818 The
Jeremiah 44:16-18children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead
the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger.
16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the Lord! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”
Jeremiah 44:24-2724 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, including the women, “Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah in Egypt. 25 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives
“Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows! 26 But hear the word of the Lord, all you Jews living in Egypt: ‘I swear by my great name,’ says the Lord, ‘that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, “As surely as the Sovereign Lord lives.” 27 For I am watching over them for harm, not for good; the Jews in Egypt will perish by sword and famine until they are all destroyed.have done what you said you would do when you promised, ‘We will
certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink
offerings to the Queen of Heaven.’
Queen of Heaven
Your Mary, Queen of Heaven brings judgement upon you. Is that where the Catholic church should be? The God Ashtoreth or Ishtar does not fit well in the Holy Trinity does she?
@danPs73@xanga - Catholicism traces itself back to Jesus. The first Protestant denomination was started by an emotionally disturbed Catholic priest named Martin Luther.
With no authority whatsoever he took it upon himself to redefine Christianity, a religion that had already existed for 1500 years.Protestantism is nothing more than a vast collection of one man's opinions.
That's it in a nutshell. Protestantism is so devoid of logical, coherent substance that the only way to defend it is by attacking the Catholic Church.
Protestantism cannot be justified for its own sake because all it is is one's man's opinion multiplied a thousand times.
@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove@xanga - You are wanting to divert a discussion of your venerated Queen of Heaven with the realization that the Roman Catholic papacy instigated its cleansing of ANY dissenters whether it be Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Knox, Wesley and so many others that defected. There must have been an awful lot of nutcases in the Roman Catholic church, right?
Back to the Queen of Heaven. God condemned the Jews for paying homage to the Queen of Heaven through the prophet Jeremiah, saying Jerusalem would be destroyed because of it; He would not share His glory with any other. That came to pass in 70 AD with the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans and the scattering of the Jews. So here comes the "Pope" and one of his first tasks in office is to re-institute Mariology (the study of Mary). Does that sound reasonable for the infallible Pope to re -institute pagan god worship in your catholic church?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology_of_the_popes
Mary, by any other name as Queen of Heaven is also known as Ashtoreth, Astarte, Innana, Isis, Demeter, the wife of Belial, or the fertility Queen; it all depends on one's country of origin and idols. Here is a recent statement from your most recent Pope; is he confused or perhaps he is not familiar with who the bride of the Holy Spirit (?) is or who God's children are. I guess we Protestants didn't understand that Jesus and Mary were brother and sister, right? Surely he is the infallible one.
"Hail, O Daughter of God the Father,
Hail, O Mother of the Son of God,
Hail, O Bride of the Holy Spirit,
Temple of the Most Holy Trinity.
Amen."
- Pope John Paul II; Address at Blessing of Marian Shrine:
Poland, Monday, 7 June 1999
This fellow must be a little confused as the parish priest of the local Catholic church. Where did Joseph come into the group.? It surely is getting crowded at the top in this unified Catholic church.
http://queenofheavenparish.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
And speaking of the Pope, why did it take 1800 years before the Pope became infallible if Peter handed him the infallibility wand while he was alive no later than 68 AD at his martyrdom? These are questions we ignorant Protestants don't seem to grasp very well from the unified Catholic church?