Wednesday, 23 January 2013

  • How Can a Loving God Hate?

    There is a Christian group on Facebook that I've been part of for a while. The other day, someone had commented that God hates wicked people, and I replied and said that God loves everyone, He just hates what they do -- hate the sin, love the sinner. The administrator of the group was very kind, and said that God does hate the wicked. I know in Psalms 11:5 it says He hates the wicked.

    That just kind of surprised me and was a wake-up call for me, I guess. I had always thought God loved everyone unconditionally.

    Here is how the conversation went down.

    Me: God DOES love everyone. He hates wicked deeds, but He loves the person. The Bible says "For God so loved the WORLD", not "For God so loved the righteous", etc.

    Admin.: While I know that I am in the minority here, the Bible does not say that God hates with deeds of the wicked but He hates the wicked. God loved the world He created but He does not love every person in it. (TB)

    Me: That's a good point. However, there are two things I don't understand, so maybe someone can help me out. 1. Why is it okay for God to hate the wicked, but if we hate someone, it's considered murder in our hearts? 2. God knows everything, and when He made man, He knew that man was going to be wicked, so why did He regret it if He knew it was going to happen? He didn't have to do it. Also, why did God hate Esau? It seems unfair that Jacob deceived Esau, yet God loved him, and Esau was tricked and betrayed, and God hated him. What gives?

    Admin.: As a Calvanist [sic] I believe that God created all humanity knowing some would be His own and some would not. Further it is my belief that He created some to be His, and some not. The ones whom God chose for His own - the elect - are the ones Christ died for and the only ones who have ever been and will ever be truly saved. So God can say Jacob I loved but Esau I hated because God created Jacob to be His and Esau not to be. Also when God hates someone it is righteous hatred. Nothing God does is wrong. However when we hate it is not based on righteousness or righteous motives. That is the difference between our hatred being sinful and God's being righteous. (TB)

    **DISCLAIMER** This post is not a formal doctrinal statement of the page. It is the belief of one member of the admin team (TB) and not necessarily that of any others on said team. For more information on my personal beliefs you can see Ligioner Ministries page where everything is explained much better than I can.

    I admit I don't know what a Calvinist is, or what the believe, and although Psalms 11:5 does indeed state that God hates the wicked, I'm still having trouble accepting this. The Bible says in John 3:16 that, "For God so loved the world" -- meaning everyone in the world -- and in Luke 5:32, it says Jesus did not come to save the righteous, but the sinners.

    If I were to meet a murderer who was interested in Christianity, and he asked me, "Does God love me?" Would the correct answer be "No, God doesn't love you"? Would I be required to say, "Well, the Bible says that God hates the wicked, so yes, but if you turn your life around and live for Him, He'll love you"?

    What do you think? If God hated the wicked, He wouldn't have sent Jesus to die for everyone. We're all wicked sinners who need Jesus. Does God continue to still hate wicked people, and love only His own?

    How do you respond?  Does God love the wicked or hate the wicked?  Is there something different about "the wicked" that separates them from the world that God so loves?  How do we know who God does and doesn't love?

Comments (14)

  • tendollar4ways@xanga
    Excellent post how Christianity is pretty much nonsense.
  • musterion99@xanga

    God loves every one, which is why Jesus died for every one's sins, although Calvinists don't agree. (I'm not a Calvinist) But because he gave us freewill, we can choose to reject God's love. God's emotions are just and righteous whether it's love, mercy, anger, hate, or jealousy. 

  • lomal@xanga

    We have to remember that God's emotions are purified and perfect. He says, "so are my ways higher than your ways." Inspired men tried to write the things that God expressed to them, and sometimes their writings used our emotional terms as a frame of reference to help us understand the sincerity, depth, seriousness, etc. about the situation as He saw it or what His children were doing. Those who seek for and have the Holy Spirit with them as they read these words are led to a true understanding. Those who do not have His Spirit are left to their own understanding, which is sometimes wrong and easily misled.

    A loving Father in Heaven has gradually taught me that all He does for us and some of what He allows to happen to us (not necessarily all that happens to us) is out of love and to help us to become like Him. Some things happen simply because of the nature of this life. But we have His promise that “all things work together for good to them that love God.” He has testified to me that He is not a partial God, that He doesn't play favorites, and that all either have had or will have a knowledge of the full truth before the last day. Then it is up to them what they do with it.

    May God bless you to always know that you are His daughter, that He allowed His Only Begotten to pay for your sins and the sins of all mankind, and that He has a plan for you that will bring you back to His presence as you continue to exercise faith in Christ, as I believe you have.

  • WasaiWarrior@xanga

    I think part of the difficulty is that we have sanitized our conception of the wicked, believing that we do not regularly encounter them, or that they are easy to distinguish from "the righteous".  There are those whose wickedness is easy to see, and whose violence is not difficulty to detect.  They are the drug dealers on the corners, the brothel owners, the bullies, the slanderers, and those who prey on others mercilessly and tirelessly.


    I did not think many of such people still existed until moving into healthcare and the inner city, where the rawness of humanity was exposed.  There I see children, even babies who have been abused & tortured, pimps and crack dealers, etc. etc. and realize that within the human heart, all selfish ambitions exist.  Those who exercise these desires, which are all of us at some point, earn the wrath of God.
    Our culture shies away from the language of hate because we do not like absolute categorizations.  But in doing so, we sacrifice the exactness of justice that is due to the victims, and we overestimate the human capacity to change.  We want to believe that mankind is essentially good, occasionally troubled by circumstances and "sin", and not fundamentally responsible for the hatred we harbor in our own hearts.
    But this is contrary to the teaching of scripture and even the experiences of our own lives, which show just how deep-rooted sin can be.  For we do not need to teach children how to become evil and wicked: every impulse to lie, cheat, steal, murder, and hate is in them too.  I see it all the time.
    However, to say that "God hates the wicked" is only half the story, because even the wicked may be redeemed.  Consider Ezekiel:

    But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

    “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

    “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

    “Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord.Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live! - Ezekiel 18:21-32


    The first thing to remember is that, by definition, it is God who determines what is justice, what qualifies for hatred, and on what circumstances to forgive.  And in His calculus of justice, he pledges here to forget the sins of the wicked if they turn from their sins.  But whom of us can cause such change within our hearts?  The story of the Israelites is one littered with repeated cycles of wickedness with no boundaries: rape, incest, slavery, oppression, cruelty, idolatry without limits.

    And yet here is the promise God himself gives only a few chapters later:

    "For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees. - Ezekiel 36:24-27

    God Himself pledges enable our turn from wickedness, and in Christianity, this is the basis for the Gospel, the good news that we have salvation from ourselves.

    I've written more about this on a blog entry, "Bad people and Thanksgiving."  I hope this helps with your questions.

  • WasaiWarrior@xanga

    To answer your questions more directly, I would say, "We are not good people who do wicked things; we are wicked people who do wicked things, and we have deluded ourselves into imagining that we are righteous.  But God has mercy even on those he hates, and his hatred does not last forever.  Moreover, He takes great joy when the wicked change, but only when they change.  The grace He shows is that he himself will give them the power and desire to change, when it is time."

  • eshunt

    I don't like to comment on anything in a discussion that draws black-white distinctions about God from people's experiences. However, it is clear for me from the Bible that Christ, Jesus lived the prophesies that predicted where and how the messiah would live. It is also clear to me that the Bible, especially written by witnesses that were with Jesus, portrays the life of Jesus as a central message for understanding Mercy. I believe that God's Mercy is reserved for those that confess themselves as sinners, receive baptism of water, and receive the Holy Spirit. Further more, I am sure that the growth that occurs in a direct relationship thereafter with the Holy Spirit is a sacred bond. Allegedly, a person may return to wickedness thereafter if they may choose to do so. I avoid the discussions on free will. However, I am certain that anyone that lives in wickedness cannot develop a Christ conscience, cannot complete confessing of sins, and is doomed to receive God's love as though it is hate. I am equally sure that anyone that genuinely confesses being born in sinful nature--knowing full well that sin is where we originate and therefore confessing sin for all his/her life is cleansed. That repentant individual may begin from that point onward to experience mercy, grace, and love as growth until all sin is forgotten. I believe that this is the beginning in a process of being made new. NOTE: my personal beliefs are almost or perhaps completely irrelevant for any other person. However, you seem to want to know how others believe. Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Seek what you want to know from Him. If others tell you different, be wary of their council (as you seem to know). 
    Thanks Ashley for posting. It is helpful when I review my place with the Lord to know that my dear friends do so as well.
    Your brother in Christ, Jesus,
    Hunt

  • Twilight_Daughter@xanga

    God loves everyone, to say God only loves certain people makes him smaller than she is, and anything less than is not God. 


    I mean think about it, how can you say God is everything, everyone, yet incapable of loving EVERY ONE? just because as humans we have trouble loving everyone "good" or "bad" doesn't mean God is the same way... that is why we are only humans after all.  I'm not here to preach or get into a debate I'm just saying what I believe, and I believe God loves everyone "good" or "bad" & that's what makes her God and us human. I believe if places of solace opened their arms and accepted those who feel unworthy and say you are worthy there would be a lot more good in this world.  By labeling someone "wicked" and not helping them, then you just add that label on them and they go on being "wicked" because no one cared enough to show them they are worthy of being more. & maybe we should focus on helping others rather than critiquing and judging since we have no place to in the first place. 
  • Mangonese@xanga

    Why is it that people tell me I can't fathom or assume what God thinks and to do so is a sin, but then people speak like this about what God thinks?

  • Lovegrove@xanga

    1. Why is it okay for God to hate the wicked, but if we hate someone, it's considered murder in our hearts?
    2. God knows everything, and when He made man, He knew that man was going to be wicked, so why did He regret it if He knew it was going to happen?

    You expect logic from the bible?

  • bowknee@xanga

    This part of Xanga never ceases to be filled with brainwashed crazies. I truly hope that none of you reproduce and bring more hate from your "God" into the world. Go home Christians, you're drunk. 

  • unoinou2@xanga

    First of all - God doesn't hate. First of all should of never been made up as a word or as a meaningful thing in our human lives.For I having PARKINSONS can say first hand to anyone out there this day that GOD is in control of everything! ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS TO PUT YOU FAITH IN GOD 100% my brothers and sisters out there.  

    For I Am - Ronnie Willis of Bradenton,FLI am brand new to this site. So please don't take threat to anything I may say to any of you. I speak from my heart. As I always have. May the grace of God be with you all during this blessed weekend.
  • hesacontradiction@xanga

    Remember
    that Religion is open to interpretation. Just like we hate the Muslim
    fundamentalist for their extreme ways, Christianity has strong, influential
    fundamentalist that behave the same way. I believe the Bible has very basic
    truth, but there are over 400 versions out there and it's been jaded to provide
    propaganda to the particular religious institution that it would benefit from.
    Henry the VIII for example. God resides in our hearts. He is the basic love,
    but he gave us free will to choose. Those people might think they are right,
    but do they really feel God? Do they know what it's like to feel love and know
    that it's a gift from God? Do they feel life or know what it means to be alive?

  • versatil@xanga

    @hesacontradiction@xanga - In Islam we believe God's love is conditional. He is All-Merciful, even Pharaoh had his chances while he lived, but His love is conditional. To answer OP's question about the murderer we have a story from Bani Isra'il (revelation about a man amongst the Israelites) who was not just a murderer but a serial killer. He had killed 99 people and was looking if there was any chance of repentance. He came across a monk who was like no way! The man killed him, too, and moved on, thus making his count 100. He then found a pious, knowledgeable man who told him yes he can repent but he has to leave this land for another. The man died en route to his destination and when the angels of death came to take him to one abode or another, it was decided the region he was closer to would determine where he would end up, and God made the distance shorter for the latter thus ultimately making him a person of Paradise.

    That first monk was patently incorrect. There's nothing God cannot forgive. No soul is burdened beyond its scope, there's nothing you can't come around from so long as you still live. The second figure had not just sound knowledge of Who God is, but sound wisdom. What kind of life was this person living that he could kill 99, now 100 people? What kind of place was this that murder was so rampant? If one truly wishes to repent, is truly trying to repent, they must change, and part of changing is trying your best to leave your sinful past behind you. If you want to change you have to be in a place where that is possible and preferably easier to accomplish.

    (One reference: http://www.sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1#20 )

    So to a murderer we can say you don't only have hope but you ought to have the best of hopes, though due law of the land should be exercised so one ought to have more wisdom and sense than just that. It all comes down to the heart.

  • tigger1356
    An article I found that might help. Does God Hate Sinners?<table border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top">by <td valign="top">Kyle Butt, M.A.

    Most religious people agree that God hates sin. Over and over, the Bible stresses the fact that God despises iniquity. God told the prophet Jeremiah to speak to the Israelites about their sin, saying: “Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!” (44:4). The Proverbs writer listed seven sins the Lord hates (6:16-19). The prophet Zechariah declared that God hates a false oath and evil done to one’s neighbor (8:17). Jesus Himself said that He hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans (Revelation 2:6). The Bible emphasizes that the Lord hates sin.

    Some have suggested that God takes His hatred one step further. They believe that God hates the sinner as well as the sin he or she commits. It has been suggested that God loves those who obey Him, and hates all who disobey. Those who teach this idea use various Bible verses to “prove” their case. For instance, Psalm 5:5 says that God hates “all workers of iniquity.” Proverbs 6:18-19 says that God hates “a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren.” Is it true that God hates sinners and their sin?

    Any person who has read the Bible understands that one of its greatest themes is love. The Bible says that God is love (1 John 4:8). It also explains that God showed His love to us while we were still sinners:

    For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:6-8).

    An interesting aspect of this passage is that it stresses that lost sinners were not “righteous” or “good” when Christ demonstrated His love for them.

    In the narrative of the rich young ruler, Jesus explained that the young man lacked something necessary to be pleasing to God. Yet even though the young man was lacking and lost, the Bible says that Jesus “loved him” (Mark 10:21). When Jesus mourned over lost Jerusalem, He cried:

    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37).

    Jesus said His affection for the lost inhabitants of Jerusalem was like a mother hen’s affection for her chicks. Such a statement obviously denotes love for the sinners in Jerusalem.

    In one of the most well-known “love” verses in the Bible, Jesus said: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). God’s love for the lost world was shown before the lost believed in Jesus. John further explained this when he wrote: “In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10). From these verses it is clear that God loves lost sinners, and proved that love by sending Jesus.

    How, then, can one reconcile the verses that seem to suggest that God hates sinners, but loves them at the same time? One of the most plausible solutions is that the Bible writers are using a figure of speech called metonymy when they write that God hates sinners. Metonymy is defined as: “A figure by which one name or noun is used instead of another, to which it stands in a certain relation” (Bullinger, 1898, p. 538). Bullinger further explains that metonymy can be “of cause,” when the person acting can be put in place of the thing that is done (p. 539). For instance, in Luke 16:29, the text says: “They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them.” In reality, they did not have “Moses” or the “prophets,” but they did have their writings. The name Moses is a metonymy that stood for his writings, since he was the cause of the writings. In modern times, that would be like saying, “I hate Shakespeare.” Would the person who said that mean that he hated Shakespeare’s personality? No. We understand he would be saying he does not like the writings of Shakespeare, with no comment on the playwright’s personality.

    If we apply that same figure of speech to the passages about God “hating sinners,” we can see that the sinner is put in place of the sin. Thus, when God says He hates “a false witness who speaks lies” (Proverbs 6:19), if metonymy is being used, then God hates the lies, and the one who is doing the lying (the cause) is put in place of the lies (the effect). It is interesting to see how clear this feature can be in other contexts. For instance, Proverbs 6:17 says that God hates “a lying tongue.” Does that mean that God hates a physical tongue, made of muscle and body tissue? No. It means God hates the sin that a tongue can perform. In the same context, we learn that God hates “feet that are swift in running to evil” (6:18). Again, does that mean that God hates physical feet? No. It simply means that God hates the sin that those feet can perform. It is interesting that while few, if any, would suggest that God hates physical tongues or actual feet, they would insist that God hates actual sinners and not the sin done by them.

    When studying the Bible, it is very important to keep in mind that the Bible writers often used figures of speech. When we look at the idea that God hates sin, but loves sinners, the figure of speech known as metonymy clears up the confusion. Just as God does not hate physical feet or tongues, He does not hate sinners. These nouns are put in the place of the things they cause—sin.

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