Tuesday, 22 January 2013
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Eternal Security: What Does it Mean?
Philippians 1:6 reads, "I am sure of this, that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Paul later encourages them to hold fast to the word, "so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run or labor in vain." The underlying theology in the context of this passage is eternal security -- once saved, always saved.
Some translations start verse 16 with the words "holding fast to the word of life," and some "holding out the word of life." They're both correct. The Greek word that appears here is epecho which can mean "to hold fast" or "to offer." Paul is urging the Philippians that as God's children (v. 15), they affirm the genuineness of their faith by following through for the cause of Christ all the way to the end.
"Forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead," he writes, "I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." If you've started the race, you must finish it. Otherwise, your head has never actually been in the race. "Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." (Phil. 3:13-16)
Before I met my darling wife, I had previously been engaged to a young woman who would later abandon her beliefs. She had once been active in her church and a respected ministry leader, ambitious and passionate. But like Demas mentioned in 2 Timothy 4:10, she was too in love with the world and it pulled her away.
At the end of our relationship, a mutual friend of ours said to me, "I used to believe in eternal security, that once you were saved you were always saved. But having watched what's happened between the two of you, I don't know that I believe that anymore. I believe it's possible for a person to truly believe and then lose their salvation."
"Consider it this way," I replied. "If you claim that you found the greatest love in the universe, and at any point in your life you truly believed that Jesus Christ was the greatest love, and that by His amazing sacrifice you've been saved from death and have eternal life, how could you ever possibly walk away from it? There are only two possibilities: either Christ is not actually the greatest love, or you never actually believed it."
One could argue, "Or you're a masochist." But who would say, "Yeah, I know Jesus Christ is Lord, and He died on the cross for my sins, and if I refuse to believe in Him I'm going to hell, but eh, I think I'd rather have hell"? That's ridiculous. We read in 1 Corinthians 12:3, "No one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says, 'Jesus is accursed!' and no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit."
As I said in a recent sermon, the power of the Holy Spirit is not so easily dismissed. If you walked away from the Spirit, then you never had the Spirit. Christianity is not something you just "try out." You're either in Christ or you're not. "Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us," it says in Hebrews 12, "looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith."
Consider also 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 where Paul writes that it's the gospel message "which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain." So if you didn't hold fast to the message of Christ, it was just to satisfy some self-serving desire for spirituality.
If you're a person who has ever said, "I used to be a Christian," were you really? Wasn't it just a circumstantial faith? It was something you did because it was convenient for a moment, but then your interests changed. Perhaps you said it was because of your parents. To follow Christ isn't a momentary religious period or experience. It's an I'm-all-in, I-give-up-myself, never-turning-back life change.
Eternal security does not mean that just because you've prayed a prayer, you're now guaranteed for all eternity and can act whatever way you want and you'll still get to go to heaven. It's following the Good Shepherd, knowing His voice, and you'll never be snatched from His hand (John 10:27-28).Do you believe in eternal security? Why or why not?
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- From: gabehughes@xanga
- Name: Gabe Hughes
- About Me: Husband, father, pastor, songwriter, and author, saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. And it's all pretty amazing! My wife and I have two kids, and serve with a great church family. My regular blog can be found at gabehughes.blogspot.com.
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Comments (20)
I knew from the first that it was all or nothing, and I was so surprised that He wanted me that I was His!
Using the passage you pointed out (John 10:28) "I give them eternal life,
and they shall never perish;
no one will snatch them out of my hand."
That passage is given in the present sense. So He gives eternal life in the present. So they have eternal life at the moment they are saved. Most people think Eternal life begins when they die. That is not true. Eternal life according to this passage is given in the present. So if God gives you eternal life and you lose it, then it wasn't eternal life. It was temporary life. It also says, "they shall never perish." If they can perish at another time then this passage makes no sense. They can in fact perish. The passage says "no one will snatch them out of my hand" and yet there are those who act as if Satan can tempt someone so bad that they sin in a way that will cause them to lose their salvation. That would mean that someone can snatch them out of His hand.
Having said that, I tend to also believe that passage that says (Matthew 7:13-14) "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because]"="">[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
The Bible also spends a great deal of time communicating there are people who think they are a Christian who are going to end up in hell. I tend to think that there are so many Christians that are stressed about losing their faith and that is just a tragedy. But I think it is also a tragedy that so many people think they are in and the Bible indicates they will be surprised. It is odd but I feel you can really just pick these people out. Something is not right about their life.
Peter said, 'Although all shall be offended, yet
willnot I...If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise." Yet he turns his back on Christ a few hours later. What? wasn't his commitment real...did he not mean all those things he said to Jesus? And was that it...was he out of the club, b/c he didn't have follow through? Dude, you profess a burdensome message, that those in the Bible didn't and couldn't achieve (lk 11:46).
Perhaps your tight evangelical doctrine doesn't leave room for mystery. Where does Jesus ever ask anyone to pray a prayer of salvation?
Perhaps as @TheTheologiansCafe@xanga - suggests we are meant to live our lives only in the present moment. And our eternal life and salvation is available in this moment...and in this moment. Meaning the present moment is the only moment that exists...its our only reality. Its the only moment in which we have choice. And it seems in any moment we can choose life or death. We can choose faith (Rom 14:23) or fear. And if we choose fear in any moment there is yet choice to repent and experience grace from a living God in THIS moment. And if that sounds mysterious...I think it is.
And if we think we know who is going to heaven and hell, it seems to me that God doesn't trust us to figure that out. Check out the parable of the wheat and tares starting at Mt 13:24. When the servants see that there's weeds 'sown by the enemy' in the wheat field they ask the master if they should gather them up. The master answers, "No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest,"
Seems to me our job is to love others (Gal 5:14)...AND nothing else. Nice conclusion "It's following the Good Shepherd, knowing His voice," Enough said!!
Praise the living God for His mercy and His Grace...it is sufficient for us.
Here's my comment from your original blog.
I'm not a Calvinist, not sure if you are, but I agree with you and where you said - "There are only two possibilities: either Christ is not actually the greatest love, or you never actually believed it." Jesus said there will be people that say to him, "Have not we prophesied in your name and done wonderful works? And Jesus replies - " Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I NEVER knew thee."
Notice that Jesus doesn't say that he "once" knew them and they fell away, but that he "never" knew them. Even though they prophesied in his name, they were never truly saved and born again.
I was converted from a seeking position within a completely secular background and a genuine believer for a decade before doubts emerged. The attitude of the self-righteous from their ignorance just helped me to see the light that much sooner. This post brings back memories.
“Paul later encourages them to hold fast to the word, "so … that I did not run or labor in vain." The underlying theology in the context of this passage is eternal security -- once saved, always saved.”
Actually, the opposite is indicated. “Hold fast” and “labour in vain” infer the falsehood of “once
saved, always saved”. The “underlying theology” indicates eternal insecurity. Interpretation is a bitch.
"If you've started the race, you must finish. Otherwise, your head has never actually been in the race.”
Apart from doubt being part of the race, this is an attitude commonly heard when I began to express doubts. My protestations of a genuine faith before doubt set in, were rejected. Being called a liar just pushed me further away.
“But like Demas in 2 Timothy 4:10, she was too in love with the world and it pulled her away.
Pretentious justification as explanation, implying she dropped away due to hedonism. Maybe
she just genuinely started to doubt. Reading the contradictions and barbarous immorality pervasive in scripture with an open mind can do that. Your slurs on her character and that of all genuine sceptics, especially of a person you knew enough to feel you wanted to spend your life with, betrays you not only as a fanatic but also a bigot, a common type in religious circles.
“a mutual friend … I believe it's possible for a person to truly believe and then lose their salvation."
At least this mutual friend thought she did truly believe at one time, which is more than you seem to allow. Let me get this right. She started to doubt and yet was an active believer. Unlike you, I take that she was genuine in both experiences at the time of each. You argue against that possibility; labelling this girl who you presumably once loved, then and now as a hypocrite. She is better off
without you.
You deny possible genuine doubt arising via genuine study and reflection. A true sign of the type.
"No one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says, 'Jesus is accursed!' ."
Did she say that? If not you should clarify matters. Maybe you don’t see the problem, which is sad but of no surprise. I know those who slander in sly ways. Did you call her a hypocrite and liar to her face.
“As I said in a recent sermon”
God help any doubters in your congregation.
“It's following the Good Shepherd”
Whatever the truth of the matter: to be moral, this salvation you speak of has to be via action rather than a particular brain state, in this case called belief.
@Lovegrove@xanga - Hello Lovegrove; I have a visual aid for you, but I must admit it is going to be a very "corny" one but I think it may help. If you have seen the movie Superman with Steve Reeves years ago, there is a scene where Superman's love (Lois Lane) falls off of a building (I think it was) heading for a certain death when Superman catches her in midair and says "I.ve got you Lois" and she responds back, "Yeah, but who's got you?" Now, she was serious because people just don't fly, do they! But it didn't change her situation; she was STILL in the arms of Superman who could not fail to save her and deliver her safely to her destination. She had serious doubts, but because she had doubts, Superman didn't just drop her then. What if she had poked him in the eye and said "Whoever you are, let go of me", would Superman then let go of her. NO WAY because she was important to him.
This is a rather ridiculous example but it is no less true. When God has hold of you by the Holy Spirit, he will NEVER let you go (Hebrews 13:5) .That was not given as a "might save you" , "maybe I will save you," but for our security that we can KNOW He will save us! Just as Lois Lane questioned (maybe doubted) the voracity of Superman's statement, "I've got you" it had no effect on her outcome because the qualities of God are not the qualities of sinful man(shifting shadows )
So the question then becomes, "How do I know that I am not saved?" It will take some serious reflection on your life to come to that realization. God gives you the qualities that WILL NOT inherit eternal life in Gal 5:19-21 If, after a time, you find no change in these qualities, i.e. continued, repetitive sin, continues without letup, you can be certain that you have missed the train.
One can not buy their way into eternal life, or " drive out demons in your name" because salvation IS NOT based on works but an honest assessment of your heart; an agreement that yes, I am truly a sinner and deserve hell. You see, God judges by the heart, not the hands. Read the book of Hosea for help to understand. God loves each of us without regard for what we do! But the heart must yield to Him. In Hosea, Gomer had lost ALL of her pride and arrogance and had no other choice than to yield to Hosea, therefore Hosea bought her back just as God bought US back through Jesus Christ. He patiently waits for each of us to yield to Him; most folks WILL NOT but some will
Lovegrove, you are defending an idea that is full of holes -based on what God has said. God offers security, not insecurity, He offers eternal love, not insecurity. Consider it, please! Dan
Kudos for your attempt at an allegory but comparing a girl in the arms of a strong man to me in the arms of God does not wear well.
Also, nice to get a reasonably full response to one of my many comments in revelife.
Oops, just realized how dark it is getting and have to go get the birds locked up safe from the foxes. Back asap to complete my reply.
@danPs73@xanga - For the believer, he will just have to work out which of the various possible interpretations of scripture are viable. For my part, theology is interesting speculation. I'm primarily interested in the moral side of spiritual assertions, and find scripture sadly lacking.
Whatever my position with eternity, all that matters is to live a reasonably good life. One can do no more. That is evidenced by the fact that professed believers seem not to be any more moral than the rest of humanity, so even with God's help, nothing changes substantially. Indeed, it often gets worse. People do things for God that they would not dream of doing in the name of doubt.
The problem for Christianity is that it's very basis - the concept of salvation - depends logically on an obvious myth, I speak of Adam and Eve. If they are myths, then what salvation is necessary?; if they are actual figures, then all our accumulated knowledge and learning is turned on its head and fairies rule in Neverland. Whatever the truth of the matter, I believe they are myth but cannot prove it. So, as with all educated civilised people in Christendom, how do you evangelise us, if you can, without referring to literal interpretations of ancient writings?
@Lovegrove@xanga - Hello Lovegrove; just a quick response to my allegory. Is it not true that God reveals the Church as "the bride of Christ"? And is it not true that the Church is, by its own nature, weakened by sin and "saved by a strong man/God"? If Lois Lane is the "Church" and superman is Jesus Christ then this verse holds absolutely true. I'm not trying to salvage a poor allegory, but just trying to humanize an eternal mystery. We, as humans, don't fully consider the true nature of God. The love that God has for us has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with us. We love (agape) because He first loved us. Since He loved us first, He displays His love through the sacrifice of His own son to buy us back from satans grasp. When you were addressing the lack of moral definition in the bible, it isn't hidden or lacking, it is mostly not understood. Consider 1 Corinthians chapter 13. I'll comment as we go through it.
1 Corinthians 13 (NIV)13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Apostle Paul is saying that if I do the works of man and live out the moral life that man identifies as morality, I am nothing and I have gained nothing. Yes, I may live a good life and may even be in good stead with my fellow man but I have gained nothing if I have not loved as God Himself loves. Then Paul goes on to explain what that love entails.
4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5
It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Now we have come to the very heart of your concern, what is morality? God's love is concerned and focused upon others needs. One might ask then from a moral point, how does this apply to me and my morality? Morality itself dictates that one be kind and patient with others, doesn't it? The 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments is to not covet another's anything (envy), and be not boastful of who or what you are because it is God that has provided ALL. Verse 5 is in all things do not bring shame upon another, especially to elevate oneself. Some of man's anger is not a sin, but man's anger always keeps a score sheet of wrongs done by others to them. God's love does NOT rejoice at the failure of others, but always looks for the good and the truth in others, Then verse 7 is the clincher to understanding God in relation to others; It ALWAYS protects, trusts, hopes for their best, and perseveres, whether in trial, need, or abundance. That IS morality; how one relates himself to others; it must ALWAYS be done in love. Then finally,
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When
I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I
reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
God says that He desires mercy, not sacrifice, and that mercy is fully displayed through love and that love NEVER fails. Then Paul discusses our growth as the body of believers through various means that He has supplied, until those "things" are no longer needed. Finally, he addresses why we have such difficulty understanding what God's morality actually entails, because we do not see clearly yet. But when Christ returns, we will see Him face to face and we WILL understand that our faith in God and hope in Jesus Christ was not in vain. As we exercised His morality on earth, we displayed God's love, that eternal quality of God.
So you see, Lovegrove, the bible very definitely explains what morality, even personal morality requires of us. It is NOT for US to gain a good life although that is a benefit, but rather to glorify God and display to the whole world what God is like. If I am able to boast in my morality and strut about in my morality, then I AM NOT a very moral person indeed. The morality that God is looking for is to display God IN ME ( not self-aggrandizement), as expressed to others. BIG DIFFERENCE.
As far as Adam and Eve is concerned, to a Christian, Adam and Eve have no bearing on faith and morality other than an explanation as to why Jesus Christ was necessary. If you believe they are myth, that should not be a barrier to displaying God's morality to others, should it? Don't put stumbling blocks in your way, Lovegrove, by finding fault in minutia. God does NOT condemn for not understanding minutia; He condemns by His only requirement, "he who has the Son has life, he who does NOT have the son, does not have life, It IS that simple. Dan
@danPs73@xanga - "Is it not true that God reveals the Church as "the bride of Christ"?"
I understand it is indicated as such in the bible.
"We, as humans, don't fully consider the true nature of God."
Numbers gives us a good indication as to God's nature, allowing that the bible is supposed to be true.
I just deleted when you just quoted and preached.
It looks like you believe in the Ten Commandments. Do you believe in the rest of the OT laws or do you just pick and mix?
"
As far as Adam and Eve is concerned, to a Christian, Adam and Eve have no bearing on faith and morality other than an explanation as to why Jesus Christ was necessary."
"No bearing" (but do show the necessity of Christ)". That must be a new meaning to"no bearing" that I had previously missed.
"If you believe they are myth,"
That suggest that you believe that the story is literally true, which is disturbing.
"that should not be a barrier to displaying God's morality to others, should it?"
What is right and good is right and good whoever you attribute them too. Is God good because she is God or is God good because she is good?
"Don't put stumbling blocks in your way, Lovegrove, by finding fault in minutia."
The truth and morality or otherwise of the bibleis central to your religion. If you are going to base the central pointof your particular doctrine on an a previous event, it would have been better to base it on something more substantial than an obvious myth. Hardly minutia.
"he who does NOT have the son, does not have life, It IS that simple."
So you hold that hell awaits those who do not believe that which there is no evidence at all. It certainly looks like it is that simple that such doctrines lack natural justice and consequently are immoral.
@Lovegrove@xanga - Lovegrove; You seem to be missing the entire definition of faith! If you NEED to have proof, then it follows that you have not put any faith in God. The most simple definition arising from the bible is that you must believe that He exists and He declares there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. That, beyond anything else defines belief. The evidence is up, down and all around you. If you miss seeing that, then the answer becomes very obvious. There is no debate that will resolve that. I'm sorry, that is what your creator has said, not me. Dan
@danPs73@xanga - The "entire" definition of faith is believing without evidence.
To believe the bible is to believe hearsay. That is a seperate issue as to whether God exists.
The doctrine of Original Sin is first alluded to by Irenaeus, who died early in the third century. I see no reason to allign any faith I may have to the thoughts of a bishop who died 200 years after the supposed birth of Christ.
Looks like you've given up. I don' blame you. There's much easier game out there to join your particular band of merry men. The worls is full of people who are yearning to believe anything it if makes them feel better about their situation.
@Lovegrove@xanga - Lovegrove; I want to be completely honest with you and I am going to respond to you with the love that you need to here from God. In honesty, I find that you are not seeking God at all. Unfortunately I believe what you are seeking is to inflate your own view of yourself by opposing what is clearly given in the bible. That is a choice that God himself has given you, whether you believe in Him or not. It isn't even necessary for you to believe anything I have said because you have that choice. In Corinthians, it says that I am merely a jar of clay, a storage container for God to use. Belief BEGINS at a point of acknowledging that God exists. Aparently you haven't reached that point yet. The Old and New Testaments mean nothing if God's display of His creation has had no impact on you. God is not Santa Claus where if you do good you get a reward. His ONLY requirement is belief in His son, that he died, was buried, and arose on the third day for your sin; no works, no pride, no self-aggrandizement. Only agreeing that He exists and is right in what He says. It is that simple. Dan
@danPs73@xanga - "I want to be completely honest with you and I am going to respond to you with the love that you need to here from God. "
It is "hear" not "here". Was you home schooled?
"In honesty, I find that you are not seeking God at all. "
How little you know about me.
"Unfortunately I believe what you are seeking is to inflate your own view of yourself by opposing what is clearly given in the bible."
That's par for the course. Why is it that you hypocrites commit the error of ad hominem when you meet resistance? I know the answer but wonder if you do.
"Only agreeing that He exists and is right in what He says. It is that simple."
It is not simple at all. I have no idea whether He exists or not and seeno integrity in pretending otherwise but that is a personal matter I'm working on.
What He says is open to interpretation. It seems I have to take your word and those like you regarding what He says. If I hold to anything from Protestantism it is that there is no one between me and any truth of eternity there may be. So what you think means less than nothing, especially after your attack on me personally. You are disgusting but as I said, that is par for the course for the usual evangeical I come across. You think I'm sunk in a hole. From my side, I feel I'm rising out of the hole every time I talk to any of you gophers.
Just to let you know, I've transferred our correspondance here to my own site as a public post.
Fear of losing something that could be considered valuable could be a powerful motivator, but it doesn't make me believe in eternal security.
@Lovegrove@xanga -
This is confusing.Lovegrove - do you believe the Bible? and if the answer is yes, would it be wholly?
@teatime - Do you ... wholly?
@Lovegrove@xanga - oh well answering a question with another..
Why am I not surprised?@teatime - Because you are already prejudiced towards me. You're not confused at all in your own self-righteous mind, just being hypocritical and pretending to want a true discussion about truth and reality.
I was making a point and you don't even see the point I was wanting to make.