Tuesday, 16 October 2012
-
Spiritual Confusion: Created Deserving of Damnation?
This is something that has bothered me since I was 13. I attend a Christian church, and I do believe in God and Jesus and all that, but I just have never understood this key concept, and it really makes almost everything else within the faith difficult. There is this idea that we are all in sin. Whether you believe in Original Sin or not, the first time one sins, one is deserving of Hell. No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of Heaven, etc. We are all deserving of eternal damnation and it is only by Jesus' grace that we can escape it, and we are all to be eternally grateful to our savior for dying in the way that he did to save us.
That's how the story goes, right?
But nobody is perfect. we were created to be sinful, carnal, etc. God created us deserving of damnation. Maybe not the second we were born -- unless you are an original sin believer -- but nobody can be perfect. It is impossible. But if we accept Jesus and all that, we are able to escape the clutches of Hell we so deserve.
This has always caused a problem for me. Maybe I am too "prideful," but I just feel like the whole system is rigged. Christianity works if you believe that you deserve eternal damnation, but if it was set up that way from the start, then I don't feel that I really do deserve the fire and brimstone. There was no way to escape it. We were all going to sin for the first time at, oh, 2 years old, and it would be done.
We are to love the Lord with all of our being, simply because He is God and because He has saved us, but he has placed us in this predicament in the first place! Why are we supposed to feel so grateful, to hand over our entire lives to Jesus, when there was no alternative in the first place?I feel like I'm committing a huge heresy here, because what I am writing is against everything I've ever been taught, but I've just always been stuck on this.
Were we created to be deserving of damnation just so Jesus could save us? Or were we created for something else and just became worthy of hell? Can you help explain?
RecommendRelated Posts
Post a Comment
- Back to revelife's Revelife Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in revelife's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)
About the Author
-
- From: RawrYouDo@xanga
- About Me: I walk a tightrope somewhere in the limbo of sanity and madness. But I've recently dropped the umbrella and I'm so close to tumbling down, down, down...
Stats: This Week All Time Posts: 0 1 Views: 0 2629 Comments: 0 40 View all posts by RawrYouDo@xanga
Comments (40)
Your claims are not correct. God created man good. However, man chose to disobey God thereby corrupting his nature and ruining his relationship with God.
It is our corrupted nature, brought about by the disobedience of Adam and Eve that draws us to sin.
Jesus repaired our nature and restored our relationship with God. So though we are still prone to sin we have sacraments through which the grace of God flows into us.
Those sacraments were instituted by Jesus during his 3 year ministry with the Apostles.
I can see how this is difficult. I'm going to try to lay out some theological concepts as simply as I can:
1. God did not create us deserving of damnation. God created Adam and Eve with free will, which is what you see in the beginning of the book of Genesis. They had the option to sin or not to sin, and they chose sin.
2. Adam and Eve's sin set in motion a chain of events that caused the world and humanity to be cursed. We are all born with a sin nature (a part of us that pulls us toward sin). That's not how God created us; it's what happened because sin entered the world as a result of choice.
3. I believe in the age of accountability. Even though we have a part of us that pulls us to sin, we still have free will. I believe God does not hold people accountable who are mentally unable to make decisions for themselves, such as babies and young children or those who are mentally too handicapped to be responsible for their actions. In order for us to be lost, we have to have a choice.
4. As I said above, we have a sin nature that pulls us to sin because Adam and Eve allowed sin into the world through their choices. At the same time, and this is very exciting, the Bible also teaches that we are made in the image of God. There is also a part of us that longs for God, a part that we fill all our lives with different things like romance, work, and possessions. God uses that part of us to pull us to Him from the moment we're born to the moment we die.
5. Romans 5 teaches us that sin entered the world through Adam and affected all of us, but the effect of what Jesus did is even more profound. Through His life and death, we all have the opportunity to escape the sin nature and let God's nature of goodness and life replace it instead.
6. Here's the bottom line. God created us as sinless, but with free choice. Our ancestors chose to sin. The entrance of sin into God's perfect world had consequences that we still feel today. Our world and our hearts pull us to sin. But our actions are not predetermined; we still have a choice, and we all choose wrongly at some point. It's not just a case of bad things we do; we need someone to destroy every curse on this earth and on human beings.
7. Jesus is that answer. If we look around, we see individual sin, but we also see collective evils like war and the pain of natural disasters. Jesus came to redeem every single one of those things, from the biggest to the smallest--the single human heart. Whether or not we end up in heaven when we die isn't about a tally sheet of bad things or good things we've done; it's about what we did with Jesus. If we're old enough (physically and mentally) to choose, that's our choice. We live in a fallen world, not because God created it that way, but because He gave humanity a free choice, and that's what we picked. But God didn't leave us there. He sent Jesus so that eternal damnation doesn't even have to be on our radar. His desire is for us to live lives as abundant and beautiful as we would have had before sin entered the world, except even better because He comes to live inside us. We don't have to live lives of pain and sin. If we give Him our lives, His perfection covers us forever, and we don't ever have to worry about being good enough.
I disagree. Check out my blog. http://derekwilson24.xanga.com/768618982/entire-sanctification-and-holiness/
Yes we are all born into sin, when we are born in this life but when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are to be Born Again. A new creature. A new creation. Out with the old man, in with the new. After we get saved and baptized into our new life, we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit who helps us to walk in Holiness and leads us in the path of righteousness.
Hiii!
first off, it's very encouraging to read your post and i think it's fine to get stuck. it's always good to ask questions! (;
Were we created to be deserving of damnation just so Jesus could save us?
we are ALL born into sin, and as pickwick12 recommended, it's always beneficial to go back to the Scriptures as it's God's words for us, it's ultimate truth.
Romans 5 is definitely something you'd like to go through if you want help and Ephesians 2:1-10 would help you too!
Sin is primarily against God and it separates us from God. Jesus died on the cross to deliver us from the slavery of sins, so that we are able to have a personal relationship with God.
God created us for His purpose, for His glory, but sin has separated us from the Holy God
Jesus is 100% human and He didn't want to take up God's wrath, why would He want to be separated from the Holy Father because of us? but if you go through Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, Jesus constantly prayed to His Father in Heaven and said 'may it be Your will.'
it's God's will, it's His purpose. it's His Love and His Grace (grace means that we do NOT deserve it, it's a gift from God)
God is reaching out to us sinful being through the Christ. God desires a relationship with us
that doen't mean that we are no longer sinful in nature, but as Christ followers, we shall always remind ourselves of the cross, of the blood that Jesus Christ has shed for us.
As Derek said, baptism symbolizes a new beginning in Christ, and as follwers, we are blessed and given the priviledge to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (as Derek said) who helps us in our walk with Christ and give us the strength to resist temptation, to watch out for traps of sins.
we as believers and followers are to STRIVE to become a more Christ-like person.
we are created for God's purpose and that is to bring GLORY to God's name and kingdom.
Or were we created for something else and just became worthy of hell?
what do you mean by 'something else'?
and for worthy of hell... i'd say i don't know. I personally think that everybody's testimony is different, but the same thing is... it IS about GOD, it IS about God's work (instead of that person's).
Our God is personal and at the same time, God is for ALL!!
Im as sinful as anybody else and im in no position to judge others
i hope this would help you a bit...
and a question for you is...
Do you want a relationship with God? Rather than just knowing ABOUT God, do you want to KNOW God?
and again, you are an encouragement to us and I encouraged you to keep on asking questions
and also, just pray a simply prayer always helps. ask God!
He listens!!
God bless!! ((;
It seems clear you are on the journey to Holiness (ie authenticity). You know God and wonder how this painful doctrine fits with His personality (or image). God will continue to reveal deeper intimacy for which you long and will also reveal more of the unique aspect of the Spirit that is within you!
Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness Rom 4:3 And that was before any written scriptures of any kind. Abraham had direct relationship with the living God. And that doesn't seem a complicated or hard to understand doctrine.
Rom 14:23 whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And sin leads to death/separation (scripture is not so clear as many profess that sin leads to Hell...and what Hell is not so clear either, eg Gehenna, lake of fire, or outer darkness).
What if we were each created by God as immortal beautiful gifts to ourselves and the world. And we live in a world influenced by Spiritual forces. Satan and his evil minions (cast down onto the earth after rebellion and war in heaven) and the creator God and His angels. And what if each choice we make in every moment during our day there's opportunity to make it by faith, which leads to life, or fear, which leads to sin and death. And its just that simple. God's perfect love casts out all fear. As we experience God's love day by day, choice by choice, we become Holy/authentic and filled with joy. And as authentic beings we more fully reveal our God given desires, gifts and being to our world...and that leads to transformation of the entire earth (Rom 8:19-23)
And in that reality the doctrine of Hell is insignificant. What is way more significant than my sins (leading to Hell or death or whatever) is my being made through faith Holy, authentic, joyful and God's partner in the transformation of the earth using my unique gifting and desires. And as God has called me (I do not boast in my faith, for He is the author and finisher of my faith), I can trust that he is also calling others. My only role is to love God and love others (On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Mt 22:40). Any doctrine or belief system that gets in the way of that it seems to me is unhelpful.
We were not created to sin. God told Adam to NOT eat from the tree. That was God's will. But God created Adam with a freewill and Adam chose to sin. We also choose to sin. God doesn't make us sin.
Adam & Eve didn't even know what Good or Evil was hence they couldn't make an informed decision whether to partake or not.
In fact ONLY Adam was forbidden from partaking of the TOTKOG&Evil but why the hec would a so called ' loving god ' deny any one from free access to the knowledge of Good?
So called xtianity is a lie from Start to finish and the next genuine believer outside of bible Story book Land will be the very first in man's entire history!
IF you want to know the Truth please give me your email & you can ask me questions bothering you!
@derekwilson24@xanga - IF ANY of you dupes actually believe there is a Supernatural holy-spirit at work then the James Randi Educational Foundation wants to hear from you?
So far ALL applicants have miserably failed even the pre-requisites and the reason isn't rocket science! i.e. ALL religions are 100% BS
Or, since Luke tells us all mankind will see God, is it really original sin we are talking about? Did God purposely create the majority of us to dwell in hell, when anyone who's a parent here knows darn good and well that we wouldn't do that to our children? Many questions arise about this, and it is good to have friendly dialogue about it, as I see many churches don't encourage dialogue about much of anything. I sure don't have the answer to serious biblical questions, but I did start to think twice about original sin after reading "If Grace Is True", "Why God Will Save Every Person", by Philip Gulley. And no, I don't think he's a quack, looking for a cult following. Quaker ministers rarely look for attention. But it's a good read, goes quickly, if anyone's ever interested.
I totally empathize with you on this. I get these same thoughts, and I also feel like I'm committing blasphemy or heresy or something. Here's what it boils down to: the theory--the theology about an all-loving God swooping down to save us from the awful sin we choose, the sin that makes each human a horrible monster from the inside out--doesn't align well with the reality--how not all humans seem deserving of death/hell, how humans are perpetually blinded and 'in the dark' about the true state of things so that our 'choices' are really just stabs at truth (that more than often miss the mark). Like you said, it's very hard to continue in a faith based on gratitude for salvation if you feel suspicious of that same salvation.
I personally struggle with the concept of the whole system, too. I question how God can point to humans and say "These things deserve death/hell...and it's all their fault!" when, if you look closely, it becomes clear that humans' sin/evil was hardly a matter of total and informed free-will-choice...How can anyone blame us? What happens when divine mercy turns out to be self-serving, self-glorifying?
Yo're getting at least two views here, somewhat in disagreement: Catholic and Calvinist. The best thing to do is to be sincere. Study Christianity from the basics and I mean the basics, which commenced a long time before your denomination appeared, whatever denomination that is. Study all views, including those opposing those you have been taught and/or accepted. There are Christian groups that do not accept the concept of an actual hell, for instance. In the meanwhile, be as good a person as you can be, even if some here will say that is pointless. The argument between faith alone contra acts with faith pr acts before faith or act naturally follow true faith, continue to rage within theChurch.Taht no one's word for anything but study to understand and possibly accept propositions yourself. Otherwise, you're not a true believer but have merely been persuaded. That's building your house on sandy soil.
I struggled with that issue as well, especially after I graduated and wasn't always around my parents to support me in my spiritual struggles. I read the bible, researched the subject and the conclusion I came to is this: God created us with the ability to make our own choices. It is in our nature by birth. We, however, generally choose the WRONG thing, being sin. Had God not given us the right to make our own choices, there would be no argument over good & evil, no arguments over whether or not we were going to Heaven or Hell. We would be perfect. If God had truly "trapped" us, we would be doomed to hell with NO chance of Heaven. But God allowed us to make a choice, and our eternal fate hinges on that choice.
The problem is that too many people go by what they were taught instead of reading the bible themselves to find out what it actually says. Some teachers teach what they have been taught without finding out the truth. Do you actually think that Jesus would of made the sacrifice he made if he really thought you deserve eternal damnation? Study the word of God for yourself to discover how God truly desires for you to have a blessed life.
I'm quite sure some people have committed some criminal act worthy of severe punishment, but they should not assume everyone has committed sins so horrible to deserve eternal damnation.
You know how a disease is pass from a father to his child through his bloodline. Because the father did something to get Aids does not fault the child for being born with Aids, but the child will have the same consequence as the father. Adam committed an act that cause a curse to come on him that separated him from having a perfect relationship with God, choosing to obey the instructions of the devil instead of God. From Adam's blood this curse was past on throughout generations. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin in order to not have that curse that is passed through a man's bloodline to his offspring in him. Jesus had to live a life of obedience to God as the father of a new generation. This is what it means to be born again, to be set free from the curse of the first man Adam, recognizing what Jesus done for us, and committing to following God's instructions instead of the devil's instructions, we become part of the new generation created through Jesus Christ living his life in obedience to God and innocently going to hell on our behalf so we would not have to inherit the damnation from the curse past down from Adam's disobedience.
@Composer - It is self-evident from the Bible that knowledge of good and evil was critical to mankind.
God told Adam and Eve what to do and not do. That is the knowledge of good and evil given by God to mankind.
Adam and Eve accepted Satan's lie that they would become like God if they ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
They chose in full knowledge of the truth to disobey God.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga -
God told Adam and Eve what to do and not do. That is the knowledge of good and evil given by God to mankind.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: That is clearly wrong!
IF they had been TOLD what is Good & Evil then preventing them access to that Tree with the same knowledge was futile!
They DID NOT know Good nor Evil until they partook of that knowledge!
ONLY ADAM was forbidden access to that knowledge (Gen. 2:15-17) Sure Eve later knew about that but she was NEVER banned from access to it!
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Adam and Eve accepted Satan's lie that they would become like God if they ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Again this is WRONG!
Eve was NEVER commanded by Story book god NOT to partake, ONLY Adam was. (Gen. 2:15-17) Story book
I have 2 bible translations (YLT & E. Diaglott) that make NO mention of the Term Satan in their narrative, so where did it go? LOL!
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - They chose in full knowledge of the truth to disobey God.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Again this is WRONG!
In order to make an informed choice it requires full knowledge of what Good is & what Evil is and in this instance what ' DEATH ' was because they didn't understand anything!
@Composer - You need to stop hallucinating your own version of Genesis and just sit down quietly and read what God wrote.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Hey dimwit!
1. Show me legitimate evidence that ANY Supernatural god wrote your alleged preferred Story book?
2. Show me the legitimate evidence that what I Posted is incorrect?
It takes more than your big mouth to attempt to support your Cult ideology!
So far you have only demonstrated your stupidity!
@Composer - Western Civilization is evidence. It's the greatest, most just, most prosperous civilization in human history. And it was powered by Christianity.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Show me legitimate evidence that ANY Supernatural god(s) were involved?
1. Show me legitimate evidence that ANY Supernatural god wrote your alleged preferred Story book?
2. Show me the legitimate evidence that what I Posted is incorrect?
@Composer - I already answered your question. But you ignored it which proves you aren't interested in evidence. You wouldn't know evidence if it slapped you.
The entire universe is evidence of God.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - ALL Supernatural gods are 100% Human constructs!
My theory is that Susan the Alien & her sisters are responsible for the Universe & beyond and so far there is NO legitimate evidence refuting that!
As far as you answering my questions, YOU just like your Story book jebus & god, YOU are also a liar & deceiver!
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - God told Adam and Eve what to do and not do. That is the knowledge of good and evil given by God to mankind.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: That is clearly wrong!
IF they had been TOLD what is Good & Evil then preventing them access to that Tree with the same knowledge was futile!
They DID NOT know Good nor Evil until they partook of that knowledge!
ONLY ADAM was forbidden access to that knowledge (Gen. 2:15-17) Sure Eve later knew about that but she was NEVER banned from access to it!
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Adam and Eve accepted Satan's lie that they would become like God if they ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Again this is WRONG!
Eve was NEVER commanded by Story book god NOT to partake, ONLY Adam was. (Gen. 2:15-17) Story book
I have 2 bible translations (YLT & E. Diaglott) that make NO mention of the Term Satan in their narrative, so where did it go? LOL!
Now try pulling your head out of your ars_e and come up with something legitimate for your current defeated cause!
@Composer - The existence of God is known through reason. Atheism requires the rejection of reason and fact.
Your erroneous redefinition of the Genesis is an item that proves how the atheist must forsake to reality reason in order to deny God.@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - The existence of God is known through reason.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: The wrong reasons that mislead you to believe a 100% human invention!
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Atheism requires the rejection of reason and fact.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Those with their head up their own ars_ make stupid & spurious statements like that!
Conversely it is by acceptance of reason & facts that Atheism prevails over Cults like yours!
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Your erroneous redefinition of the Genesis is an item that proves how the atheist must forsake to reality reason in order to deny God.
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: I can't deny what doesn't literally exist and comments like yours 100% devoid of legitimacy attest to your loss but my vindication!
My reading of the Genesis Story book narrative is accurate and your inability to show otherwise again vindicates moi!
By all means get back to me when you wish to try your luck again against moi & your own preferred Story book, LOL!
Your ONLY literal Saviour moi!