Saturday, 08 September 2012
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When "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" Fails
When talking to Christians about homosexuality, I almost always hear one of three things from the person:
1) I have no problem with homosexuality, either because
a) I don't believe Jesus/The Bible condemns homosexuality
b) I don't agree with the part of The Bible that condemns homosexuality.
Aside from personal issues with internal consistency of one's theology or with cherry-picking the parts of your religion you wish to follow, these people and I tend to get along just fine on this subject.
2) The Bible condemns homosexuality, and we shouldn't accept it or the people who practice this "choice."
If you didn't guess by the fact that my name is "GodlessLiberal", you know that these people and I are like oil and water -- really, really bigoted oil and incredibly handsome water (I'm the water, just so you know).
3) Homosexuality is a sin, so I disapprove of it. But, as a Christian, I am called to hate the sin but love the sinner. So I am tolerant of their lifestyle choice.
Type three here is what I wanted to address. On the surface, it seems like they've come to reconcile with two things that most people observe as completely obvious: The Bible condemns homosexuality (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13; Romans 1:26-27) and that there are a lot of homosexual people in the world. Instead of giving up or bastardizing their faith, they've kept it intact. And they decided to eschew spending their life full of unmitigated bigotry and hate like Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church of "God Hates Fags" fame.
Side note: this is child abuse, right?So at face value, this seems like a decent position to take. The comparison I often hear being made is that we can love someone who happens to have stolen something, but not condone their act of thievery. The problem is, the thief makes a conscious decision to steal something. A homosexual person doesn't make a conscious choice to be attracted to people of the same sex. Sure, you could argue that they do make a conscious choice to act upon that attraction, but imagine if you were told that heterosexual couples were forbidden by your religion -- would you be able to curb all your sinful heterosexual desires? Would you allow your society and your religion to tell you that the way you feel itself is a sin?
Of course, some people believe that being gay is a choice. If you think that being gay is a choice, I challenge you to force yourself to become gay. Can you do it? Hell, why would you want to, considering how gays are treated in our society? It seems about as sound of a choice as choosing to be dark-skinned in 1950s Alabama.
Consider this scenario the next time you feel like telling somebody that you "hate the sin but love the sinner." You're telling this person that every romantic feeling they've felt in their life is a sin. Imagine if someone were telling you this very same thing about your heterosexual feelings that you have no control over.
[Editor's Note: We here at Revelife know that this issue is one that causes people to quickly jump to conclusions, get defensive and cause arguments. We're not posting this post or the questions below because we want to start an argument; we want to have respectful and meaningful conversations with people who have different points of view. That being said, if you don't think you can communicate in a loving and respectful way, we ask that you not be involved in this conversation.]
Do you think that "love the sinner, hate the sin" fails if homosexuality is not a choice? Is there a way to view homosexuality as a sin without viewing it as a choice? Are there other sins that are not choices?
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About the Author
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- From: GodlessLiberal@xanga
- Name: Krisko
- About Me: A site to debate religion, politics, evolution, morals, laws, and pretty much anything I have an opinion about... which is pretty much everything. Come tell me how wrong I am, or, alternately, how awesome I am!
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Comments (30)
This is my personal conviction. Homosexuality is a sin (I only mean acting on it). I tend to agree with you that homosexuality is something chosen, although there isn't any way to know for sure. I think acting on your feelings, i.e. having sex, outside of a marriage covenant is in essence the same for homosexual or heterosexual relationships. All of this though only really pertains to the body of Christ, Christians.
I'm all for gay marriage. I don't think the state has any right to tell a church it has to marry a gay couple. Outside the church, yeah, let people marry who they want. Christians aren't here to force or opinions and beliefs on others. That's just not the way Jesus asks us to go about things. We aren't to judge others (cliche i know). It's true though.
I believe acting on homosexual feelings is sinful, as the Bible says. The experience of homosexual attraction is not sinful, though I believe (as unpopular as this belief commonly is) that God is very willing to free people from it if they are willing to let Him.
And yes, for the record, I love God enough to curb my heterosexual desires. I have a sex drive, but I'm a virgin at 27 and waiting for my wedding night. If the Bible said heterosexual sexual actions were always wrong, I would do my best to allow God to help me never engage in them. I love Him that much. And, I believe He would help me.
I do love people who engage in a homosexual lifestyle (while believing the lifestyle is wrong), but I don't do it because I want people to think I'm decent. I do it because I believe it's the right thing to do, regardless of how anyone views me as a result of it.
I knew this was you GL from the first sentence.
Consider this scenario the next time you feel like telling somebody that you "hate the sin but love the sinner." You're telling this person that every romantic feeling they've felt in their life is a sin.We're telling them what the bible tells them. How can we believe the bible and not believe what it says? It doesn't matter to us that atheists or non bible believers disagree.
Imagine if someone were telling you this very same thing about your heterosexual feelings that you have no control over.That's a red herring and irrelevant to a Christian because the bible doesn't say that heterosexuality is a sin. Krisko, I don't know why you think these kind of posts are going to change what Christians think. I would be a hypocrite if I believe in the bible but stop believing that homosexuality is a sin.
as a Christian I love the person and hate the sin because I understand pain..I understand being rejected. And I might not understand the science behind homosexuality but I do understand pain his universal..and If you tell me you're in pain..I am going to believe you. pain is universal!!
I Know homosexuals do not enjoy being called names, cause I know being called names outside your birth name can hurt like heck. Therefore I have chosen to Love the individual and hate the sin. Or as i prefer it "love the sinner and hate your own sin".for all have sinned.
Yeah, your post made it quite obvious that you're not a Christian...so I guess the only thing that I can say is that Jesus (y-shua) asked that we deny ourselves of the flesh. Both old and new testament asks of this. Whether it be of food, riches, or sexual desires within God's laws. To over indulge results in many hardships, outside of punishment of God. Let's say for instance that I over indulge in sex? Disease, children out wedlock (definitely hard raising a kid with a spouse/partner, even harder without!) and emotional trauma with constant breakups. My mother is in her fifties and is still trying to just land a "partner" to spend her life with, after a lifetime of being promiscuous. If I allow myself to continue coveting over someone's gains in life? I would probably become bitter, hateful, ect....Even if you argued that if I became a person of wealth, popularity, had children, had nannies to care for said children, and had a side boyfriend for a number of years; doesn't equate to happiness. Either way, we are told to deny ourselves and that in denying ourselves and obstaining, we gain appreciation. Which I wholeheartedly agree with. Whether you believe in God or not, you appreciate things a lot more when you have them either very little or later on, after doing without.
In your preferred Story book Land who gets punished, the sin or the perpetrator of those Story book sins?
Next!
I definitely think that homosexuality is a sin.
The point is that even heterosexual Christians are struggling with sexual sin(pornography etc.). I will say they are both sin. When God created sexual desire within us, then is not sinning while we have inappropriate thoughts?? It's definitely about the matter of choosing to sin or not.
When people who came realize the importance of the word and the holy spirit will convict their hearts.
I still find it hard to accept them, but we have to accept them and show them the love of Christ. One way of loving them is just showing them the truth but how we do it is another matter.
Loving thy neighbor regardless of their sexual orientation is not one of three or a thousand choices, it's Christian doctrine.
The problem with this post is that it ignores the elephant in the room which is the attempt by atheists and their minions to normalize sexual disorders like homosexual and get them sanctioned by law.
That in effect will kill Christianity which is the objective of atheism.
Gay rights, like atheist Darwinism is a worldview. And those worldviews cannot co-exist with the Christian worldview. As a result, Christians are in a death struggle with a philosophy whose intent is to wipe them from the face of the earth.
This post is also exemplary atheist hypocrisy.
Krisko shames Christians about expressing their beliefs the same way he hallucinates that Christians are shaming homosexuals for their sexual orientation.
Here's how the atheist mind works: Hallucinate a lie and then peg it to the backs of Christians. Then shame Christians for what they do in Krisko's hallucination.
It's definitely a no-win situation for Christians.
To simply be a decent human being takes a great deal of inner strength and dicipline. Sin points to the fact that we are free and can make choices, the main one is to love others as we do oursleves, or to use and abuse them. Abuse is common on all levels of society, sexual not being the only type of abuse. Sexual desire outside of marriage tends to make the one lusted after an object, a living, moving doll, a plaything to be used and set aside after the lust is gone. For lower animals sex is for procreation. I believe that humans are the only ones capable of making love. I am not saying however that there are no loving homosexual relationships, I know of some.
If God is not worshipped and sought after, no matter how often one has to start over, then a lesser god will be found. Sexual identy and the desire to find the perfect partner is one such god and leads to despair, at least from what I have seen in those around me. Sin is sin because it is harmful to the sinner, not becasue it is fun and God does not want us have 'fun'. To use another human being, be it hetro, or homo, is sinful, wroing, just as it is wrong to steal or to kill another.
The sexual scene in the United States is scary. Out of wedlock fatherless mothers have reach up to 60% in some parts of our culture. Children who have no fathers suffer from that and in the end it is passed on to the whole culture.
I am a sinner, I am no better than someone who is homosexual and sins through that lifestyle. In both of us is the desire of the Lord to bring us to greater healing and love. I have homsexual friends, one is a transgender, I love all of them. I am not their judge. We can overly focus on just one kind of sin and leave others out, perhaps that is because other sins hit too close to home. Greed has done a great deal of damage to our world, yet many christians don't seem overly concerned about that and 'hang' with people that they know are less than honest in how they make money. Then there is racism. I know racist, I don't argue with them, nor do I allow them to use their foul language in front of me...if they don't like it, then we don't speak. Is this sin less than homsexauality? I think not.
In the end, this is a good post, I am not your judge, I wish you the best, and even though you are an atheist, I will pray for you. Not in a conscending way, for you are made in the image and likeness of God, of infinite worth and Jesus took on your life and sufferings just as he did for all of us. In anycase, prayer is second nature to me and I feel a cnonnection with all that I come in contact with, no matter how slight.....This post makes you higher up than just "slight"..... wish you well.
peace
mark
I loved the editor's note added on to that. I hate that we are a species that need to be reminded to respect other people.
Is Revelife short on writers? Just kinda ironic to see this author posting something here. Maybe I can try to get a post on Mamaroo, since I am neither a female nor have children
that being said, anyone who has visited the authors site know this is really a no-win/no-change discussion. There are lots of interpretations of scripture, but even if we did get an atheist to concede that scriptures do, in fact, say homosexuality is a sin... Well, they dont believe the scriptures anyway. I still think love the sinner hate the sin applied. Why? Well, Jesus told us to love our enemy and to love our neighbor. Certainly ones we dont agree with qualifies here. See, in the extremes...I can hate the type of person who would fly a plane into a building or people in the KKK for beating people (and no one would say anything). I can even hate those who insult and abuse people because they are homosexuals. but Jesus says I am to still love them and pray for them. I do not accept what they believe or how they live, but I also dont go on a genocide mission. I think some on both sides of the argument are nuts most of the time, whether it is the conservative being homophobic and wanting to kill homosexuals or if it is the liberal who wants to blame religion and have Christians, and others, wiped off the map. Both are wrong, because neither are following love. So you can hate the sin but not the person. I think Jesus is speaking to both sides here in this argument.
I felt the same way when the stuff with Chik-Fil-A happened. I think homosexuality is a sin but I still will go to Disney, will eat Oreos when I want... I also did not go to Chik-Fil-A on that one day. Why? Because what is the point? Oh hey, look at us, see how much chicken we can buy to say we disagree with you and support the company. I will still eat chicken, but it will be when I am hungry, not when a mass mob of people want to go somewhere on one day and buy chicken, instead of taking their time and money to go out and help the poor and needy around them. It is easier to buy chicken I suppose. It is also easier to rip on one another and hate one another on this issue, then it is to go have some coffee and get to know one another better. We are more than the sum of our parts, right?
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.-Matthew 5:43-48
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[c]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” ... (see the rest of Luke 10)
If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. - 1st Corinthians 13:1-7
Love Wins.
Fantastic post! Intelligent and hard-hitting!
And can I hear a shout-out to revelife.com for having the guts to post this on their site? This is usually a pretty conservative place so posting GodlessLiberal's essay here is an act of real courage. Thanks a bunch everyone! Nice to see a place of friendly (dis)agreement during these divisive times
@GodlessLiberal@xanga - What do you mean, "We are the only species that needs to be reminded to respect other people?!"
When was the last time you reminded hungry lions and killer whales to respect other people?
Who teaches you to parrot all this gobble-d-gook?
I think it's clear that acting on homosexual feelings is a sin. I would even venture to say that many, many people have experienced same-sex attraction at some point in their lives. But NOT all of them act on it. There are many different circumstances that may cause someone to act on their feelings, but it doesn't change the sin. I have strong sexual desires; does that mean I can go and fornicate and not call it a sin? Absolutely not.
Acting on same-sex attraction is on par with any other kind of sin. Society pushes us to normalize a lot of sinful behaviors and homosexuality is just the latest one. It doesn't make people who struggle with these feelings any worse than another person. I feel pretty neutral about openly gay people although my recognition of their sin is enough for a defensive attack. It is a lifestyle decision. I have made mistakes as much as they have in other areas of my life.
We are called to live like Jesus, who ate with sinners and came for the broken. I think it really comes down to WWJD.
Also- about choice. Sin is always a choice. Once you know it, anyway. You can sin without knowing God's law and that isn't your fault, but once you hear God's word, things change. The same-sex attraction is probably not a choice and some people are more likely to have stronger feelings (brain chemistry), but Jesus conquered the world and He can conquer the desire to act on these feelings.
@vicdaily@xanga -
I am a straight male, married to a woman. I would describe my own sexuality as much more than "acting on opposite sex attraction". Straight defines much of who I am, and always did even before I ever "acted" on my sexual attraction to women. Although I have some choice as to whether or not I am married, have sex, etc, my sexuality is still there. Sexuality is much, much deeper than the sex act. Just as one can be straight without ever having sex, one can be gay without ever having sex.
Sexuality, even homosexuality, is a much stronger and complex thing than just acting on an attraction, and sexuality is a much deeper part of our identities and existence. It is much more innate than even our desires to lie, cheat, steal or gossip.
I think straight Christians tend to take for granted their sexuality and it's acceptability in the Christian world, and this contributes to over-simplifying and trivializing the issue of gay sexuality, even if it is unintentional.
When we ask a straight to live out his/her sexuality in a God honoring way, we're asking them to not be promiscuous, fornicate, engage in adultery, etc, but there are still acceptable options for a straight to act on his/her sexuality and be God fearing. When we ask a homosexual to live out sexuality in a God honoring way, we're asking their sexuality to be suppressed, denied, or altogether ignored.
I just think it's far too easy for straights to explain away someone's homosexuality as something they just shouldn't engage in when we ourselves can live out our own sexuality without being condemned. It's not as simple as "oh sometimes I sin too, but we can stop sinning, so can you."
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga -
Dogs, cats, lions, whales... nobody tells them feeding and protecting their babies is more important than drinking vodka or going to the movies.
Nobody has to tell them to not go out of their way to maul other animals out of pure spite and entertainment.
The same can't be said for humans.
@subSacred@xanga - Animals do not have free will and intellect. They are governed by their instincts. The atheist notion that man is no different than animals is obviously absurd, but people like Krisko believe it anyway.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - not nearly as absurd as expecting people to believe in the God certain careless bullies follow.
@subSacred@xanga - You argue like a child. Stick with the issues. Krisko is an atheist who hates Christians and Christianity. He thinks animals have the same value as human beings.
And you and other so-called Christians come to his aid.What a disgrace!
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - On the contrary. I am sticking with the issues, I am arguing like an adult. You'll understand when you are older.
The disgrace is arrogant, self righteous Christians who say very little that actually reflects Christ, his life or his words yet claim to be building a sound argument for Christianity and feel they have a right to mock those who don't believe in God, despite their godless behavior.
@subSacred@xanga - You aren't a Christian. You are an atheist poser. And you are Krisko.
Like I said, a disgrace.@subSacred@xanga - Don't feed the troll. This person (Curtis, aka LobornLyte, aka LobornLytesThoughtPalace, aka many other permutations of this name) has been banned both from Revelife and from Xanga on his other accounts, where he pretended to be a female fitness instructor who was sexually assaulted in an ashram. You can act like a civilized human all you want to him, but it will result in something slightly less productive than getting in a shouting match with a pineapple.
@GodlessLiberal@xanga - OOHHH. I remember lobornlyteraindrop whatsherface. I haven't been on here in a long time, I should have recognized it sooner.
Thanks for the heads up. He/she's definitely not worth the time.
@GodlessLiberal@xanga - @subSacred@xanga - Conjuring up a troll account and talking to yourself is pathetic. So is calling someone a troll who has rightfully objected to your hate speech and bigotry against Christians.
Apparently you've gotten away with it for far too long.