I have a friend named "Lee." We met in college a few years ago. Lee was an exchange student from South Korea and we became fast friends. We both went to classes together and also went every Sunday to church and bible group. Lee always seemed like a good Christian to me.
After a year Lee went back to Korea to serve in the military. It's something that all Korean men have to do for two years apparently. Lee really didn't want to go into the military but if he skipped out he'd be arrested -- so he did his duty.
Immediately after going into the army, the letters Lee sent me became very dark. "I hate this place. I hate the army. I want to die."
He wrote that to me at least several times during his service. Lee said that even during the train ride from his home town to the military barracks: "I was in hell. The guy sitting next to me went insane. No joke! He said 'I want to go home! I want to go home! I want my mommy!' Then, one time, the train passed a town and he said 'That's my town! I need to get off! I need to see my family!' He tried to jump out the window!!! The guy needed to be restrained by two soldiers and a sarge! It was really scary."
The letters got even more disturbing. "I hate this place! I'm cold and hungry and tired. I want to lie down and sleep forever. The superior officers treat us like **** and hit us. I had to go to military jail for a week because I talked back to an officer. They're adding my jail time to the end of my term so I'll go home even later."
Lee seemed most miserable during the winters, which were unusually cold in Korea during the last two years. "I am going to die of cold. I was on patrol all night and I was too tired and too cold and I thought I would faint. I couldn't feel my hands and feet... it was like walking on nothing. When I had tower duty near the DMZ, I could see the North Korean soldiers on the other side training their guns towards us. If North Korea invades, we will be the first to die."
Towards the end of his term Lee seemed to lighten up a bit. He wrote a letter saying that he had been accepted into a grad school in the US. "One month until I'm free!!!!!!" He said, "I've been approved for a student visa today!!! woo! When I'm in the US, let's meet for coffee!"
When I met Lee later that autumn he definitely looked different. His posture had become really rigid and he had put on a surprising amount of muscle. He also had a surprise for me.
"I'm not going to church anymore," Lee said, "I don't believe in God. I don't think He exists... but I still want to be friends with you. Is that okay?"
"Yeah," I said, but I was shocked and saddened, "I'm so sorry you've left your faith. Why don't you follow Christ anymore?"
"Well, I mean..." Lee looked uncomfortable, "I mean, I did pray when I was in the military. A lot of the soldiers prayed. We had church and everything... but it was really difficult. I was being yelled at by all the officers and bullied by the soldiers because I had gone to jail. I was so tired and hungry and I hated being made to do things by other people. I mean, I prayed and prayed but I was still tired and hungry and being controlled by other people."
"But starvation and tyranny are really the works of Man, not God," I said, "God doesn't need prayer, only we need prayer to remind ourselves that God is there and loves us. Prayer is supposed to be a comfort. Even if our parents and friends who love us die, there is someone there who will love us into eternity and who will never die... and that's God."
"Yeah, well..." Lee said, "I used to believe that but, y'know, after nights on patrol you get to know your own head pretty well and I suddenly realized that I just didn't believe there was a God."
"I think there's a war for your soul right now," I said, "I'll pray for you..."
Lee looked kind of irritated suddenly. He said, "Look, you don't really know what I went through. You were never in the army. You were never really starving or afraid... you can't really counsel me on this, okay? Maybe you should understand what I'm going through a little better before you start telling me to pray or anything."
I said okay. I know that Lee is losing his faith and that's wrong. I also know that in some senses he's right. I've been very blessed my entire life. I have loving parents and a good home and a good education. I have never been hungry or experienced tragedy or true suffering. Maybe I can't really counsel people who are suffering to have faith -- not if I haven't suffered myself.
I hope that my faith is strong and that if I ever experience suffering I will keep my faith.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Romans 8:18
Still, I'm really worried about my friend Lee. I don't want him to lose his faith. Does anyone have any advice?
How do you lovingly counsel a friend who has lost his or her faith because of circumstances you can't understand? What could this person and similar people do to reach out to friends who are walking away from God? Have you ever been in a similar situation?
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Comments (35)
God is part of the American military ethos and that is why American armies have always kicked ass.
In Asia the military ethos is kill, kill, kill for kill's sake because in Asia human life has the value of warm spit.And that is why Asians die like flies in or out of the military.All you can do is accept him and pray. I doubt he is a true atheist, just his old ideas about God don't work anymore. In any case, if the seed is there, it will sprout, inthe Holy Spirits time. Preaching of course will do no good. I was in the military and it was rough, but mostly boot camp, after that it was not so bad. That was from 67-71. I will pray for your friend.
Peace
mark
Just keep telling him he's going to go to hell if he doesn't see the light. That's always worked for me.
Yes there is nothing you will be able to do. If you try he will see it as manipulation. He understands how manipulation works now after having his brain manipulated for the past 2 years by control freaks. He also see's you living all your life in comfortable suburbia so unfortunately you have no way to inspire him with your lack of trials and your comfortable lifestyle.
He has prayed for God's favor and God has exercised his right to remail silent and not do a damn thing. Lee has now seen the real world and real "faith" in "action" and he was not impressed. He will now think for himself and be much wiser. Be happy for him instead of insulting him. Stop insulting his intelligence and show him some respect.
@TheMushyPear@xanga - You are f****** HILARIOUS!!!
@TheMushyPear@xanga -
this is funny
pray for your friend, but don't try to preach or force anything on him. it's tough to resist, but we often say the wrong thing! God can work in his heart in His own way. In a way, your friend is right: you don't know what he's been through. But that's okay, you can still be a supportive friend and a good listener. You never know what can happen -- ask the Lord to show you how to be the best friend you can!! And I'll pray for you and Lee too :)
@TigerLily_24@xanga - said it well... Ive had friends go through things that have made them walk away from God.. and it breaks my heart.. but i don't stop praying for them. I know that Holy Spirit can work in ways of the heart that I cannot, and I just have to trust that God knows their hearts and He loves them even more then I do.
when God brought you two together in friendship, He had already seen both your backgrounds. You, coming from a comfortable life and Lee, from a war zone. you two are the exact opposites in life but the same in spirit. you both have known the Lord as your Savior, you have shared in the feloowshop of Christ but now, time has come for that friendship to be tested. In John 10:29 Jesus said "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." so my dear friend, Lee was called to God by God. God drew the two of you to Himself and He does not lose His children unless they decide to. Lee was tested and tried, maybe in the worst of conditions but let me tell it was not in vain. All things worketh for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose. God gave him the opportunity to stand ,as a man of God and guard his country and as far as blessings are concerned he came back to the US alive. Maybe, hurt, bruised and discouraged but, alive. It is time for you to put him in prayer. Don't try to change his perspective or push him into anything, but whenever you close the doors of your prayer room and dedicate him to God, the Lord Almighty who created that friendship will stop all business in heaven, cap His hand behind His ear and listen to EVERY WORD YOU WILL PETITION FOR LEE.This is a battle you are fighting head to head with the devil and you cannot do it with your own flesh and blood, it is by the Spirit of God. He belongs to Christ, no matter the hurt and the pain, he belongs to the Most High who called Him to Himself. I pray to the Lord to give you strength as you pray for Lee's faith to be restored. It is not in vain. The Lord has seen the desire of your heart and when you delight in His presence (through prayer, fasting and ministering His love to Lee), God will grant you that desire. You are a blessing to him, let the Lord do His work now and be at peace. All is well.
Watch and pray. The opportunities will come and you will be the one prepared with the necessary word or action if you are the one who is praying for him.
It sounds like you thought you could convince your friend to return to church. Complete unconditional love means we take that person where he is in his life, pray for him, and do things with him should he come back that would be fun for the both of you. You can't talk him into Christianity, something people tried to do with me while I spent the first 35 years of my life in mormonism. Just be there for him, and pray for him. If at some point he allows you to pray with him, that's great, but I wouldn't push it. He's on a difficult path, and God knows this, and accepts him.
I would see if he would be willing to read (or just give him a copy to read) Fox's Book of Martyrs or Jesus Freaks by DC Talk.
These are letters and writings from people who ended up loosing their life just because of their faith.They suffered greatly and unjustly and that may be something he can relate too- but these people stayed true to the end- maybe it will encourage him to rethink his path.
It's worth a try! After that, pray in great detail for him, be there for him as a friend. Then trust that the Lord cares even more about Lee then you do and He will do everything in His power to help him.
I would NEVER EVER want to join a military outside the US because they're so much worse. I mean getting yelled at in the army is fine you say Yes Drill Sergeant till they're done and they let you go, and if you're real bad they might hit you but it's not like that. I feel like militaries like that go too far. Being starved is not normal. When you are training of course your conditions are bad and you get treated like shit, what if someday you become a prisoner of war are they going to be nice to you? I don't know I feel sad for your friend. I'll pray for him for sure.
As a former Christian, I find it incredibly irritating when Christians try to convert me. I'm sure they mean well, as they believe it'd be better for me, but I've spent a very long time thinking about, researching, and reconsidering my spirituality, and it comes off as condescending when others tell me they know what's better for me. Sure, it's often dressed up as "passing on God's message," but as I don't believe there's a God... from my stance, it still comes off as the individual doing it.
I don't care if life as a Christian (or Muslim, or Hindu, or...) is more fulfilling for you. If you've found something that fits your worldview and helps you, that's fantastic!
...But so have I, and I don't want you to try to convince me that a different path that was - for me - a terrible one, is universally "better."
Your friend, from the sounds of it, has done the same. He's thought long and hard about Christianity and found it doesn't fulfill him. As long as he's leaving your faith alone, leave his lack of it alone. If you want to invite him to church events, that's probably not going to be terribly offensive - but it probably comes off as pretty condescending and rude to consistently act like there's something wrong with him feeling differently about something that is so often personal and usually relies almost entirely on what a person "feels" is right.
@Sheeraw@xanga - Thank you for the enlightening reply, really.
You need to respect his choice, first of all. Christian or not, this is still a friend of yours who needs a friend, not a religious counselor right now. And yes, you can comfort him without saying you'll pray for him or mentioning biblical stories- it's only going to upset him more because he'll feel like you're trying to manipulate him.
He is an adult and he needs to make his own choices, regardless of what you think is right or wrong. So what if he's not a "Good Christian" anmore? That doen't make him a bad person.
I think you just have to let him be. If he doesn't want to believe anymore, that's his choice. One day, when his life becomes much brighter & he doesn't have to see death & pain all the time, he might come around. But either way, you should support his decision & simply be a good friend. He'll find solace in other ways; if he doesn't need religion, that doesn't mean his life will have any less quality than yours.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Do enlighten us how America "kicked ass" during the Vietnam war. If a United States marine were to rape a child, then the general assumption a population would have on the United States Marine Corps would be that all marines are low life rapists. Is it true that all devil dogs are low life rapists? No, not all carry themselves in such a manner. It is just one bad seed out of the bag that falsely represented the corps. It is through the representation of a few individuals that create an everlasting impression for the public. You are too quick to judge an entire culture you do not fully understand.
In regards to your friend Lee, I do not know if you have ever faltered in faith, but one possible way you could persuade him in returning to the house of God is to inform him it is God's plan for him. His suffering is an obstacle in which God has laid down before him to overcome. It is a test in which God is the proctor and Lee is the test taker. The proctor observes quietly once the test has begun.
It is not surprising for one to lose faith though. Life changing events have a bigger impact and distracts the mind from one's own righteous path to salvation.
Never force or exert one's belief unto another.
@KateeLee1@xanga -
I would see if he would be willing to read (or just give him a copy to read) Fox's Book of Martyrs or Jesus Freaks by DC Talk.He definitely won't see that as manipulation
@Edeline_Wrigh@xanga - Beautifully said. People who believe that a walking talking snake stole the universe think that we are the ones who "don't get it". I find it irritating as well. But if we can't see the humor in that......
@Mastechief117@xanga -
His suffering is an obstacle in which God has laid down before him to overcome.It would have been quicker if God just gave him a quick 5 minute butt raping to help "strengthen his faith".
"I think there's a war for your soul right now," I said, "I'll pray for you..." I don't mean to critticize, I know your concern is real, but this was a bad thing to have said, however well intended. To many of us that's our religious friend's way of saying, "I don't think you're in your right mind if you don't believe the way I do." It's kind of an accidental looking insult that can only be viewed as psychological manipulation. Anyone who's in the process of shaking off manipulations of any sort, or who has already done so, would be instantly put on guard by such a statement if not outright offended. Just be his friend. Let him talk to you. Don't judge. Don't push. He's been through a lot. He NEEDS to talk it all out in order to find his peaceful center again. It might not be the same as yours and why should it be? You haven't been through the same experiences. Be loving and accepting. That's the best you can do.
No man will seek God's grace faster than the one who has run out of logical alternatives to solve his own problems in his life. Φ ≡
@Mastechief117@xanga - America did in fact kick ass during the Vietnam War. The notion that we lost the war is one of the biggest lies perpetrated by the Left.
The Tet Offensive in 1968 saw the Vietcong eliminated as an effective fighting force. By 1974, Nixon had bombed the North back to the Stone Age. A Boy Scout troop could have ridden in on bicycles and claimed the country for their own.But the Democrat Party, as usual, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory and cut off all funding for the South Vietnamese army. The Democrat Party lost the Vietnam War, not the US military.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - The idea of associating mass murder (war) with a God is disgusting to me. If an army following your God has killed the most people, I wouldn't consider that to be something worth being proud of.