Clearly my title is exaggerated, but recently I have been very frustrated with this mentality of "a loving God would never do this, that, or the other thing." I have a few of my own thoughts on this, but I would like to start out with some interesting thoughts from the former president of my college, Dr. John Davis.
This summer I helped to interview Dr. Davis for a project that my boss is working on. During that interview the topic of Christian love came up and Dr. Davis pointed out the following things.
- It is not God's love that is his main characteristic; rather it is his Holiness.
- Holiness is the only attribute repeated thrice (Isaiah 6:3 is a notable occasion of this) i.e. Holy, Holy, Holy (not Just, Just, Just; Loving, Loving, Loving; or Righteous, Righteous, Righteous) and three is a very important number in the Bible (think: the Trinity).
- God does not "condemn" people to Hell because he doesn't love them, but rather they must go to Hell for the unholy cannot exist in the presence of the Holy.
Now comes for my thoughts. I understand why Christians (and people in general) have difficulty accepting the existence of Hell. Hell is terrifying! It is a place with no hope where the unsaved go to spend eternity without God!
But that's just the point. If there were no Hell, then what's the point of the Gospel? What's the point of the calling to save people from sin? If you can just live your life however you want and still get into Heaven, that whole "narrow road" idea goes out the window. If you think that Hell is just a myth that Bible-thumpers tell you to scare you into going to church, then you are really cheapening the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. What was the point of Him dying a slow, agonizing death if we don't even have to say we believe in Him to go to Heaven?!
Hell is Biblical. You can't choose not to believe in it just because you're afraid that your unsaved friend from high school is on the path that ends there. The most important thing to remember though is that God does love you and everyone else. Do you think He enjoys seeing people stuck in Hell for eternity? Do you think that is what He wants? Is your God so vindictive as that? No, God does not get pleasure from "condemning" people to Hell. He does not condemn them at all. Truly they condemn themselves for choosing to live away from Him in life and thus they must continue to in death. The unholy cannot survive in the presence of the Most Holy in Heaven. That's not the way it works.
It pains me to see love distorted the way it has been by modern evangelicalism. Rob Bell is the first person that comes to my mind unfortunately. I think he has done some great things for youth ministry, but he overstepped himself with Love Wins. That's not to say that the entire book is worthless, but my advice would be to tread carefully. The idea that "a loving God would never do this, that, or the other thing" is not just misleading, it is also putting God in a box. You are limiting God if you say He cannot do something. God can do anything.
This is the part where you turn around and say, "Hey wait a minute, if God can do anything, why can't He just turn down the Holy and let people in?" Good question. It's not as if God never showed up in the Old Testament, and the "holiness" of some of the people He appeared to is debatable. It is important to note though that God coming down to earth in a semi-physical or physical form is not the same as being in the full presence of His Holiness, and therefore the circumstances are different. Also note that that form was still so Holy that Moses had to wear a veil over his face after being in God's presence on Mount Sinai because his skin was literally shining (Exodus 34).
Why can't God just do that all the time though? God's Holiness is what makes Him God. Really, I think that to have one without the other is impossible simply because it is paradoxical, but more simply: while His Holiness is something that can be tempered for certain situations, I believe He would cease to be "God" if He were to just tone down the Holy a bit. You say, "That's blasphemous!" and I say, "Exactly!" God ceasing to be God is ludicrous, therefore it is unfeasible to posit that it would be better for Him to be less Holy in order for the unholy to go to Heaven. Don't paradoxes make your head hurt?
To cap off my argument I would like to add one more thing. God is unknowable in the big scheme of things. We don't know why He does what He does or how He does it. We certainly do not know everything about Him, the master plan for Earth, Heaven, or Hell. If we did, it wouldn't be called faith -- it would just be knowledge. Because of this, it would be foolish for me to say that I've got all the answers and everything stated above is the Truth. God's probably looking down at me and giggling at how cute my theological endeavors are.
Nonetheless, I believe the Bible in the Truth. If the Bible says that the path to Heaven is narrow, then you bet your bottom dollar I'm not going to go around saying, "The path to Heaven is wide open! Do what you want and God's love will carry you to Heaven!"
God's love certainly will carry you to Heaven, but only through Jesus. He wouldn't have said it if He didn't mean it, so regardless of whether or not my theories are to be believed, the Bible is Truth and should be heeded.
What do you think about God's love and the existence of Hell? Do the two contradict each other? What do you think about the suggestions made by some that a loving God can't or won't send people to Hell?
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Comments (37)
Certain brands of Christianity like Calvinism claim to know God better than God knows God. That is hubris. And hubris always leads to catastrophe.
Since Jesus talked about Gehenna and the place of fire, and the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth it is unwise to deny the existence of hell because of a man-made, personal hallucination of "love."Jesus hung around a whole lot with people who sinned... :-/ I guess I try not to get caught up in who may or may not be going to hell. I just try to do my best to be like Jesus taught us to be. Mostly that's loving people. I think a lot more gets accomplished by showing love than by telling people about hell. I don't love my parents because they told me "we're much stronger than you, smarter than you, and when you're bad we'll punish you." I love them because they taught me things, helped me through the hard times, and above all loved me regardless. Maybe God doesn't need our love but we need to love God in order to follow him. Nothing else pulls quite as strongly.
God is Love.
Not all choices are good choices.
There is hell.
There is Love. Love is stronger.
God loves us, let's follow him.
@Ooglick@xanga - "I guess I try not to get caught up in who may or may not be going to hell."
You're right, this is not as helpful as being a loving example of Jesus' ways, as being a pointer to Jesus as the way.
We don't know the population of hell. So, we in our unknowing can hold out
hopefor each person to make it to heaven.
I believe hell is very real and very serious. I think that God's nature is just and Holy. I also think that from my perspective and limited knowledge and limited understanding, there is no way I can determine the righteousness of any of His decisions. I also think that there are only two choices in this conversation: either God exists and His rules which are outside of ourselves are THE rules, or He does not exist and we all make our own rules, in which case there is NO measuring stick other than opinion. So it is either His way, or you have no ground to stand on to condemn Him.
Full agree with this, and recommend your post, Hillary ! (I voted for you as President BTW). Anyways, man tends to find his own personal hell. He doesn't need divine guidance to get him there. Φ ≡
Seriously, if God is some jealous egocentric being who condemns all those who do not recognize Him to hell.... why does He deserve our worship? Forget that! It'd be like worshipping Kim Jong-Il! The only being worthy of worship is a being of Love, not totalitarianism.
@Ooglick@xanga - You misunderstand me. I am not saying tell people that they are going to Hell to scare them into converting. I'm saying that as Christians we cannot ignore the fact that it is a real place just because we don't like it. I would never tell one of my unsaved friends that they were going to Hell, but it does scare me that they will go there if I cannot show them God's love before it is too late.
@phoebester@xanga - "The most important thing to remember though is that Goddoes love you and everyone else. Do you think He enjoys seeing people stuck in Hell for eternity? Do you think that is what He wants? Is your God so vindictive as that? No, God does not get pleasure from "condemning" people to Hell. He does not condemn them at all."
This is interesting to me. Jesus totally talked about hell, but I don't come to the same conclusions you do about the role of God's love. Maybe its because of different understanding of definitions or presumptions.
What does Holy mean to you? The way you use the word I presume you see it as meaning righteous or without sin, but my research says that Holy means authentic (whole, integrated, non-transgressible or boundaried and set apart...as in not influenced by). So a Holy God is a God who totally knows Himself (all of who He is) and totally loves Himself. If that's true, then I can imagine it was out of His love for Himself that He created humanity (and all creation). So why is God down on sin? It seems to me that sin keeps His creation from love and true life...and God hopes for us to experience more of both. And the way to freedom from sin is through the co-suffering love of Christ...He calls me, woos me and wins my heart...forgiving me along the way.
And so who is going to Hell? Jesus describes those going to hell as goats....and sheep go to heaven. So what is the difference between goats and sheep? Its not sin (both goats and sheep can get themselves in trouble seems to me), but hard-heartedness. Goats go their own way, even when guided by a loving shepherd. Sheep know their master's voice and follow (even ignorantly or blindly).
Its interesting we very nearly end in the same place and seems we even start in the same place, but we take different ways to get there. I like the path I'm on...being wooed by a loving God verses being threatened by an angry God. But also seems to me there's room in heaven for both of us
@god_stories@xanga - Yes, I do mean Holy as in sinless, but also "exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness" as it says in Merriam-Webster. If God wanted humans to exist purely to love Him then why would He give us freewill and the opportunity to sin? Why not just create love robots who would stand and worship Him for all eternity and satisfy His ego? Yes, Jesus compares Christians to sheep, but not for that blind faith analogy that you make. He is the shepherd who loves us and tries to guide us towards the right path because a sheep without a shepherd is a dead sheep one way or another. I'm not trying to be self-righteous and say you have to live a perfect life and have blind faith to go to Heaven. I'm saying that you need God's love to be present in His Holiness. My life's not perfect now that I have Jesus, but it was going nowhere good before Him. It worries me that so many people have an attitude like yours that no matter what you're going to go to Heaven because it simply isn't Biblical. Whether you think God is an egotistical jerk or not distorting what the Bible says in order to make excuses so that you can have a happy ending is not good. They way you talk about God I assume you believe in Him and you talk vaguely like some evangelicals I've met, so I'll assume you are saved as well. I don't care if I disagree with you. I care that people are going to Hell and Christians don't seem to care anymore.
my issue with Hell has less to do with its existence and more to do with what qualifies someone for damnation. as an agnostic, i'm doubtful that God exists. i can't really reject anything i'm not sure is being authentically offered. in my opinion, the only people who can categorically reject salvation are people who do believe that salvation is being offered, but still choose to act otherwise.
@flapper_femme_fatale@xanga - @BeoKOTOR@xanga - I think I too have the same issues with the idea of hell. What if someone is raised Buddhist or something, and only encounters Christianity later, and so sees it in roughly the same context as any other major religion? I know there's things in the Bible about this, I just have to go find them again. Maybe hell does exist, but is it so bad to hope that maybe people won't go there? I know plenty of atheists/agnostics who really do wish that there was some way to believe because it is happier thinking that there's a God who loves them, but they just can't force themselves to believe in it. Like I said, mostly I avoid the issue entirely. :-/ There's plenty to worry about in this life.
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@flapper_femme_fatale@xanga - Theres a passage in Romans that touches on that. The writer claims that there is no excuse for anyone because God has made plain His existence (Romans 1:18-23). It's easy to be blinded to that; I am constantly reminded how blinded I can be. As a scientist, it's very hard for me to think beyond the temporal, mechanistic, materialistic world in which we exist. Jesus said He came to remove our blindness (John 9:35-41).
C.S. Lewis in the last book of the Chronicle of Narnia--the Last Battle--also touched on this. There was a young man who worshiped Tash instead of Aslan. But the Tash he worshiped was different from the demon of destruction his comtemporaries worshiped. They lead wicked lives in service of a wicked entity. When they crossed the final threshold, they met their Tash in horror. But this young man lived a life of honor, integrity, and love. When he crossed the threshold, he met Aslan. He was very confused. Aslan explained that although he claimed to live a life in service of Tash, Tash rejected him for Tash is wicked and a creature of destruction. The young man had lived his life for Aslan without realizing it. So, Aslan accepted him and his sacrifices. I don't claim that C.S. Lewis is right or that this applies to the God of Abraham, but it is something to think about.
I agree with you, @Ooglick@xanga, that the threat of hell is usually not a good way of pointing people toward Christ. How can it be? On the other hand, if Christ is not saving us from something--whether it be Hell as some people think it or simply eternal separation from God--then what was the point of His sacrifice?
@phoebester@xanga - God IS Love--and He is the only one who can satisfy us. It would be wrong of Him to not want us to worship Him if He is where we get our greatest satisfaction and the purpose of our life. Because He is the only one who can give us true lasting joy He wants us to love us. Everything else-work, money, marriage, kids, etc is temporary and will not satisfy completely.
@BeoKOTOR@xanga - Interesting thought. I can tell that you have a good heart. Sometimes it is hard to accept the definitive because it makes us responsible. My question is do you want to know the truth and be definitive as much as is possibe. Do you want to arrive at a definitive place where you can know, a place where you can know and be sure as you are about the fact that you are male?
Best regards,
sometimes we fail to apply simple common sense. Is there a hell? I believe there is. The exactness of its environment I cannot exactly define beyond what is written. But it is a place of judgement. It is simple actually for those of us who are unsure. Do you leave your car unlocked when you park because you are not sure if there is a deviant nearby that will violate it? No you dont, you err on the side of caution. A car is a lesser commoditiy. For that there is mastercard. Your life, at the end where you cannot change anything is priceless and well worth ensuring you just lock the door (do what is required to stay out of hell).
Peace!
@Ooglick@xanga - right.
i think that if Hell was just an absence of God, rather than eternal punishment, that would make more logical sense. i mean... in agnostic. in theory, God is already absent from my life. so if Hell is simply my life for eternity... well, that wouldn't be too bad.
of course, Christians usually fire back and say that God is omnipresent in this reality, and that it's impossible for anyone, regardless of their religion or faith, to live without God. to which i respond: then God doesn't REALLY give us the free will in this life to accept or reject Him. so why not force non-Christians to go to Heaven anyway?
@Peterso2020@xanga - Yes I do tend to prefer being as definitive as possible, and I seek the truth as much as it can be sought. However, I do not want to be in a place where I can be definitively sure that I am male since I am in fact female.
@flapper_femme_fatale@xanga - How does God being omnipresent nullify freewill exactly?
@flapper_femme_fatale@xanga - If we are truly made for God, then the loss that is self chosen, would be one of living without God for eternity. If God is love and we are made for love, then to lose that would be hell, not the fire etc.
peace
mark
@BeoKOTOR@xanga - it means that non-Christians cannot choose to live their lives completely without God.
@flapper_femme_fatale@xanga - But if you don't believe in Him then why does it even matter to you that you think this means He's encroaching on freewill?