Wednesday, 15 August 2012

  • If Not Darwinian, then What?

    Contemporary Christian creationists often deride Darwinian evolutionary theory and propose one of several current creationist models as a clear alternative.  Of course, these groups debate amongst themselves over exactly which literal reading of Genesis to prefer, including whether or not dinosaurs were present on the ark.  

    But what many of these groups fail to recognize is that Darwin did not emerge into something like a contemporary creationist worldview to fire off his evolutionary broadside and leave evolution and “creation” as a dualistic scientific battlefield.  Christians prior to Darwin did not generally hold to what we would recognize as “creationism.”  Instead, they blended the theological insights of Genesis with the most reasonable natural philosophy of the time, whether it was drawn from Aristotle or Linnaeus.  Especially popular were models based around the “Great chain of being.”

    But of especial interest is the understanding that was becoming current when Darwin was studying at university and travelling on HMS Beagle.  This was the height of the anti-slavery/pro-slavery debate in England and the Americas, and a scientific shift was underway to justify – often on biblical grounds – the separate status of Africans and other “inferior races.”  For these groups, Adam was seen as the beginning of the Jewish race in particular, and each race had its own lineage and progenitor.  From Desmond and Moore’s study, Darwin’s Sacred Cause,

    Those who believed in the separate creation or emergence of each human race or species were ‘pluralists.’ For them the various human species were not blood-kin at all. Each species in its geographical home had a separate bloodline back to the beginning, which never connected to any other species. There was no common ancestor for all the races. Some American writers were already arguing that the origin of all the different races of men’ was the most intriguing subject of natural history. A few laughed Moses out of court and dismissed as flippant talk of climate turning one race into another. These pluralists had Aborigines first appearing…adapted to the sport where they are now found. So black and white had separate ancestries and differed more from each other than one species of dog did from another. With increasing agitation over American slavery, pluralism was a perfect legitimating philosophy. Books were already denying that the separate races or species were equal or ‘sprang from the same primitive root’. Slave and master were thus unrelated, which made the planters’ actions toward their ‘inferior’ captives easier to justify.

    In this context, from principles deeply rooted in both scripture and (itself derived from scripture, through divorced from its historicism) Enlightenment humanism, Darwin strove to justify scientifically that all humans are of one blood. If Darwin had not succeeded, it is possible that some other researcher would have. He was not the first to suggest common descent, natural selection and random variation.  But there is no certainty that this view would have won out as fully as it has done.  

    What is certain, though, is that the shape of Christian creationism would be far different, with different allies and opponents.  Which ought to suggest something about the relative merits of Christian creationism, being as it is a reactionary and not at all “default” or straightforward view of scripture.

    What do you think?  What might the creationist perspective look like today if not for Darwinian thought?  Even if you reject some or all of Darwinian evolutionary theory, could it be seen as beneficial in a humanitarian light?  Even if you affirm some or all of Darwinian evolutionary theory, how can we prevent it from being mishandled in the name of a “social Darwinism”? 

Comments (99)

  • LadyboyRevolution@xanga

    Nobody knows for sure how we got here or what happens afterwards. If they say they dogmatically do they are LYING! People cannot handle facing that fear. Many would rather be intellectually dishonest and embrace a lie written in a religious book. Much easier. Ignorance is bliss. Intellectual slavery is much easier then intellectual freedom. The masses of asses choose bliss. Welcome to The Revolution

  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    If Darwin were alive today he would reject his own theory after taking a look into a simple microscope.

    Science, the creation of Christian scholars, has been co-opted by atheists who really have no interest in evidence or facts.

  • ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga

    I believe that God created the heavens and the earth. I believe that he created mature animals, humans, and planets, thus giving the appearance of age that is not really there.  I believe each stage of creation was done in 24 hours, "an evening and morning" I believe each animal and human, reproduces after it's own kind. Horses give birth to horses, humans give birth to humans. I believe in microevolution, so that each animal or human can adapt to it's area of living. Microevolution  can be seen in animals such as the rabbit, whose ears grow larger in hotter climates than in colder climates. this allows the rabbit to regulate body temp. This does not change the rabbit, into something other than a rabbit. Just allows it not to die in it's environment.

    I do not believe, that God needed, or used millions of years in order to create life. this belief that He did, goes against scripture, as the Bible says that death entered the world through the sin of Adam. If death entered the world through Adam's sin, then death was not around for millions of years to kill off evolving animals.I do not believe He instituted a system of "survival of the fittest" thus forcing species He created to die, and be forced out by others.

    As for dinosaurs, and if they were on the ark, I don't care. The Bible does not say one way or the other that Noah had 2  T Rexs on the ark and I refuse to speculate on what the Bible does not record.

  • JerusalemHill@xanga

    @LadyboyRevolution@xanga - "The masses of asses choose bliss..."  Perfect!

  • ProdigalPat
    What isn't broadcast to the masses when the debate of creation and the evolution of thought comes up is the fact that each individual that found something through their work that was in disagreement with the church was hesitant and quite penitent when they publicized their findings. Galileo and Darwin especially were torn with what they had found, knowing what kind of resistance they would receive from the church.

    What's more is that the majority of those that disapprove of natural selection, as put forth in The Origin of Species, are more than happy to subscribe to a kind of social Darwinism that says that one individual may be more blessed and therefore more successful than another.

    The way I see it is that we are part of His creation. Though He placed us above all other things, we are just as bound by those laws that are a constant throughout ceation/nature. Sciences such as chemistry, biology and physics do much to show us how His creation functions and has functioned through time.
  • Captric@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - @PrisonerxOfxLove- if Darwin were alive today he would be very pleased at the evidence from a microscope as well as DNA evidence, geological evidence, anthropological evidence, archeological evidence, chemical evidence and more all focus like a laser in support of his theory. He would also not be surprised at the reaction of people who in spite of overwhelming evidence still practice bronze age cult ceremonies and beliefs.

  • Captric@xanga

    @ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - I hope you are facetious - for your own future as well as the future of the nation you are from. Haha

  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @Captric@xanga - You don't understand Darwin, apparently. Things are the way they are, not the way you hallucinate them to be in order to fit your atheist religion and your simplistic way of thinking.

  • Captric@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Haha--- you are so entertaining!! It is not me who believes in ghosts - demons - and zombies--- those are hallucinations. As a biology pre med student I learned the theory and facts of evolution just fine. And as an atheist - I know that there is no religious ceremonies and no pagan rituals so a non belief is just that- a non belief - it is not a religion!  But keep up the responses because you prove my points!

    Oh and next time you go to the doctor for treatment make sure you ask for the pre evolutionary medicine! Lol
  • NeverSubmit@xanga

    I wish people didn't feel the need to bring up social darwinism is relation to biology.  It's that phrase "survival of the fittest," I swear people, find out what it actually means in context or stop using it, sheesh.  Social Darwinism is a moral philosophy of "might makes right," evolutionary science is observation and interpretation of biological facts.  They are not the same thing. 

  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @Captric@xanga - The subject is Darwin, not your new round of hallucinations.

    Darwin hypothesized that small incremental changes happened over very long periods of time which led to speciation.


    Since Darwin, science has progressed enough to understand that there is not enough time in the universe for Darwin's hypothesis to work. 

  • Captric@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - you are the gift that keeps on giving!! LOL So you also do not believe in radio carbon dating? How about overwhelming geologic evidence of the movement of the continents over billions of years vis plate tectonics. How about the archeological evidence of species that are no longer alive - and the progression in the strata from older to younger with the expected morphologic changes in the species. How do you explain flying snakes - walking fish - birds that cannot fly - whales with the remnants of hips for walking. What about the DNA markers left by rare diseases in our ancestors that are still carried as markers in our genes.

    You are the one who is hallucinating about zombies that can make you live forever if you just telepathically accept them as your master and symbolically eat their flesh and drink their blood in a bloody cult pagan ritual thus removing an evil force from your soul put there because a talking snake told a ribless women to eat fruit from a magical tree in a garden that no one can find.I would suggest you get a better education before you debate with me.
  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @Captric@xanga - The topic is Darwin, not radio carbon dating. Try to focus.

  • When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Speciation is observed. Humans have bred a single groups of animals into two groups for enough generations for them to be two different species.



    Evolution has literally all of the evidence for it. Everything we see in all the relevant sciences (from geology to chemistry to archeology to microbiology to information theory, et cetera) is perfect agreement for it. Creationism on the other hand has no evidence for it and hasn't predicted a single thing with its hypotheses.

    On top of that, evolution would be very, very easy to disprove if it weren't true - There would be no order to the fossil record, instead of the perfect branching speciation that matches up with the evolutionary tree of life.

    "Science, the creation of Christian scholars, has been co-opted by atheists who really have no interest in evidence or facts."

    Now this - this is the most hilarious thing that creationists do - in order to deal with evolution being universally agreed upon in biology, you have to assert that atheists, a small fraction of the population, have engineered global, all-encompassing conspiracy to hijack science on a global scale movement.

    THAT is funny. Talk about grasping at straws to maintain an entrenched belief system that conflicts with reality.
  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - Give one example where speciation has been observed in higher animals.

    If speciation is taking place, where are all the new species?

    If evolution were really taking place there would be all kinds of new species appearing all the time.
  • When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga -"
    Give one example where speciation has been observed in higher animals."


    I'll give you a few, since there are different kinds. We've created some in the lab by experimentation, observed speciation in nature, and we've inadvertently created some in agriculture from the breeding involved in husbandry.

    A good laboratory example would be fruit fly experiments where a single female was bred with different types until different strains of her offspring weren't compatable with each other, I.E. they had evolved into different species. This is a common experiment done in biology sections of colleges but for good documentation to research, you can look up the Dobzhansky and Pavlovsky reports from the 70's. Or William Rice and G.W. Salt in the 80's.

    In agriculture, the common sheep evolved when our ancestors domesticated the Mouflon which is now an entirely different species from the sheep. 

    In nature we can confirm that "three-spined stickleback" fishes were once of one species until their lake was separated by ice activity and the different fish groups were isolated from each other. They can no longer breed.

    "If evolution were really taking place there would be all kinds of new species appearing all the time."

    There are. It's just a long nuanced process.
  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - Sorry, but aren't we talking about NATURAL SELECTION?

    The lab is not natural selection and neither is human breeding.You have just proved what a dismal failure your pet theory is. It won't work without human intervention.

  • Captric@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - you really are just an illiterate moron! Completely ignorant of anything beyond the MAGIC that you think in your small mind is real because like minded illiterate morons ocassionally agree with you and this is what your illiterate parents taught you.


    Keep your stupity in the church where it belongs you F*** ing  idiot.
  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @Captric@xanga - Darwin knew nothing of DNA or radio carbon dating. Calling me names won't make your hallucinations any less irrational.

  • Captric@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - and you prove my point again! Radio Carbon dating and DNA evidence are the strongest scientific evidence we have to day to PROVE that Darwin's theory was correct - even if he did not know the microevolutionary mechanisms by which it worked. Being called hallucinogenic by someone who still practices bronze age cults and believes in zombies and magic has little affect on the facts. 

    All you have to do to prove me wrong and to prove your religion correct is to provide scientific evidence of a world flood. How about one piece of wood from a wooden arc - the largest boat EVER to floated on water and made of wood by hand. What about evidence of the Garden of Eden. A talking snake....a talking burning bush. How about the Ten Commandments --- if they are not old testament than what is ---- are you and other Christians going to just pick and choose from the old testament the parts you like or are you like your historical cult members going to start stoning people to death who commit adultery or homosexuality, or disobey their parents or do not believe in your imaginary friend JUST LIKE GOD SAID in the old testament.No  - because you are a hypocrite and so are your fellow cult members and you only prove day after day that you are no better than the Taliban and Islamists of the Middle East that you so handily despise.
  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @Captric@xanga - You are engaging in circular thinking. 

    Darwin came up with his theories without any real science.  

    And like I said earlier, Darwin would have abandoned his own theories upon looking through a simple microscope.

    Therefore, you are only hallucinating evidence that's supports your hallucination on evolution.

    Atheists are the only ones I know of who use hallucinations as proof of other hallucinations.
  • Captric@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - Then how do you explain 

    Endogenous retroviruses. 

    ERVs are sequences in the genome that are derived from ancient viral infections of germ cells in humans, mammals and other vertebrates; as such their proviruses are passed on to the next generation and now remain in the genome. Endogenous retroviruses are a variant of a retrovirus which became permanently integrated with its host and is inherited from generation to generation as part of the genome of the host. Humans, arguably, are the most advanced level of speciation on planet earth so far. Humans SHARE the ERV's of lower level species and only the most recent being the great apes.

    This is the strongest argument for linear progression of the species and is inarguably proof of Darwins original theory. Pleas explain ERV's in your fraudulent colloquial theory of creationism/intelligent design.
  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @Captric@xanga - If you would kindly read my comments you would know that for evolution to mean anything you can't use lab results, animal breeding programs or snipets of RNA called retro viruses.

    Darwin came to his theory after visiting the Galapagos Islands. His theory pertains to higher animals.

    Consequently, your allusion to retro viruses is just another hallucination that is so totally irrelevant to this post as to be surprising.

  • When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga

    @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - There are plenty of examples of speciation in nature (I gave you one). However, whether it's in a lab or not is irrelevant to the biological systems involved - all the observers are doing is providing a different environment for successful genes, which nature does as well.



    It's kind of pathetic when someone proves themselves to be science-illiterate yet piously and confidently asserts that key scientists were delusional despite their theories long outlasting themselves.
  • PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga

    @When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - You gave nothing except proof that the Theory of Evolution doesn't work without human help and intervention.

    And that makes it absolutely worthless.

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