Saturday, 11 August 2012
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The Role of the Church in "God Punishing America"
I appreciate Reverend Billy Graham. I heard him speak many years ago when he came to my college. I was struck by his humbleness and grace -- and met God there. I also appreciate the heart-felt concern he expresses in his recent open letter to America, and have noticed the behaviors he mentions. I'm disconcerted though by his carefully worded implications.His letter references old testament Bible verses and implies that the behavior of Americans is similar to that of residents of Nineveh and Sodom, ancient cities that God threatened to or did destroy according to the Old Testament. He implies -- but doesn't directly state -- that America faces similar punishment from God. His solution to America's current problem is to evangelize the unchurched in every neighborhood in America, inviting them to repent.
Graham has a long history in 'tent evangelism' and has touched many lives, my own included, and he's totally gifted in that style of ministry, but does God punish 'nations' today and is repentance by the unchurched what God requires to withhold his punishment -- or to bless the people of a nation?punish (M-W definition): to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation; to inflict a penalty for the commission of (an offense) in retribution or retaliation
The idea that my suffering is my own fault and God's punishment for my sin is tempting to believe. If true, then it also must mean I have control over the circumstances of my life here on earth, but anyone with any significant life experience knows that's not true; bad things happen to good people, and take a look at the Psalms. So I've found total benefit in relationship with a living God, but freedom from punishment for my sins is not one of them. That I've noticed through experience or Bible study.
I believe that God forgives my sins, offers freedom from condemnation, rest while in relationship, and as I continue to follow Him into risk filled adventure -- a deeper faith and freedom from fear leading me to see life giving choices as alternative to sin. He has opened my eyes to feel the shame of my own sin and to recognize my desire for intimacy with Him and others, praise the living God.Saying a prayer of salvation was merely a first step on my journey -- Paul offers some precedent for the idea, but it doesn't come up in the Gospels -- as was water Baptism, Baptism in fire, and I've discovered something hugely important: transparency every day in relationship with God and others as I walk out risky choices by faith. That last one I'm finding is what leads to holiness (i.e. authenticity).
So I'm learning humbleness, patience, communication skills, more intimacy with myself and God and effective boundaries with others that I hope is the means for deeper intimacy. As I read the Bible, this personal holiness and intimacy is what God desires. Blessing and suffering, or as some mystics called it: consolation and desolation, are the circumstances God uses to invite us to deeper intimacy and maturity and perfection. This also seems the fulfillment of the law -- no longer are we punished for our sins, because Jesus took our punishment -- but the law was and is merely a tutor showing us the way to holiness. Holiness, where the law is written on our heart and as the law punishes murder, our heart reminds us that even saying Raca to our brother is the same as murder.So does calling for the unchurched in America to repent lead to freedom from punishment for a nation? That doesn't seem unworthy, but perhaps if the church (me) repented of sin, saw injustice, allowed myself to learn how to love, fed the widows and orphans and pursued holiness, then God would do the rest: call the unchurched, bless us as His children, see our own shame and unconstrained desire for Him, and experience His love individually and in community.
I, of course, think He's already doing all this; just as He called me and first loved me, he's doing the same for others. As I seek His face, He's revealing His love for me, and my lack of control. So perhaps as we, His church, become Holy -- and discover that's a life-long individual journey and a communal one too -- He will teach us how to love others rather than evangelize or condemn, fill us with His grace and continue to fulfill His plan for the earth and all His children in spite of all our plans, certainty of who God is, and lack of grace towards our fellow sinners and pilgrims on the journey.
Did you read Billy Graham's open letter? Do the sins of the unchurched lead to punishment for a nation? Is it correct to assume that God holds the nonbeliever to the same standard as the believer? What is the role of personal pursuit of Holiness in a church community? And do you think that is helpful to transforming communities or a nation?
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- From: god_stories@xanga
- Name: Larry Brother
- Location: Boston, Massachusetts, United States
- About Me: A story is being written every day. A story of love and relationship and danger and adventure. A story about romantic relationship at a time of epoch war. A story about God, the spiritual war He wages, and the millions and billions of people He loves...not anonymously, but intimately! This story is about His favorite one...ME!! Of course you are too!
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Comments (44)
@bowknee@xanga - The word "Brainwashed" is a good word to use. When a person is brainwashed, they art convinced of a truth in which they put their whole belief in. If you want to say Christianity is people brainwashed into believing things about God, that is okay. It can also be said that those who believe there are no morals are brainwashed in that issue too.
@xXrEMmUsXx@xanga - To that we both agree on. Yes, we have made Christianity and conversion a scare tactic. In reality, love conquers all. Thank you for clarifying this with me.
@mr_randyc - it needed clarifying. I did a poor job expressing it.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - "The Bible contains story after story of people and nations who have rejected God's moral teachings." I can recognize your interpretation of old testament stories and perhaps rebellion is a part of some not turning to God, but I can imagine other reasons too...a big one being that God is the one doing the calling (Mt 16:17) and that seems to occur in due season. And for those in rebellion have you ever considered their reasons (or even your own...as I suspect we each are tempted to be offended by God at times, certainly there are lots of examples in the Bible, eg Peter, John the Baptist, Elija, Jonah, et al) for choosing rebellion or offense at God? In addition, I know many who have been hurt by church culture (if you understand what I mean by that...presumptions about what is required to be in 'the club,' eg conservative republican).
"Secular people refuse to accept moral limits on their thinking and behavior."Seems Jesus offered a message of love for ALL people...and had total grace for sinners, eg the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, Zacchaeus, et al. He very much seemed opposed to the idea that church leaders of His day had about 'us (law abiding Jews) versus them (everyone else). You name 'secular people' as them sinners, and its likely you don't mean to separate and denigrate anyone, but by your language I wonder.
And so the reason for my previous questions is that I've come to believe we are each of us sinners on a journey...none are righteous, nor have any arrived at a destination nor have special designation (while still taking breath here on earth). There's no pride in belief (as our faith is not through our own efforts), but a gracious gift from a living God. And by that grace it seems we've opportunity to offer grace to others.
@quest4god - @iones_island@xanga - "Any concerted effort to live as though God doesn't matter is living in sin and at enmity with our Maker." Right on...Rom 14:23 says, 'For whatsoever is not offaith is sin" ...and I interpret that to be true for both believer and non-believer, churched and unchurched.
And faith is a gift from God (Heb 12:2)...not earned by any effort of our own.
@mr_randyc - @bowknee@xanga - I've come to believe that experience is the basis for any one's beliefs...and experience can include knowledge and emotion.
Not sure of the definition of brainwashed, but I've noticed that the M-W definition of fundamentalism is: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
So to me the difference between genuine belief in a God (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) or a truth (Buddhism) and fundamentalist (not the Christian denomination started in early 20th century) belief is an actual experience. The former brings life and joy the latter divisiveness and burden.
Thanks for the conversation!
@dw817@xanga - heh! ...and totally respect his long life of dedication to a cause much bigger than himself!
@iones_island@xanga - "why is this such a troublesome concept for a believer?" I can totally understand your question...and the reason for writing and exploring this with you all.
Your answer to your 3 q's...right on...AND God hasn't changed, but perhaps our understanding of who He is has grown deeper through Jesus (Jn 14:9 ...and not only did God not wipe out any cities...in fact rebuked His apostles for suggesting so Lk 9:54-55...He did not judge nor destroy a single sinner who breathed Jn 12:47). Jesus did not abolish the law, BUT He did fulfill it...Paul describes this in Gal 3 (the law is a tutor...and we no longer need the tutor as we've now 'faith').
“But such a paradoxical exercise of power, please note, is a hundred and eighty degrees away from the straight-line variety. It is, to introduce a phrase from Luther, left-handed power… Left-handed power is precisely paradoxical power: power that looks for all the world like weakness, intervention that seems indistinguishable from nonintervention.”"why is it so horribly outside of the pale of possibility that his judgement and wrath could fall on a nation today" God is a mystery. I don't know why God revealed 'straightline power' (by wiping out nations at times described in the Bible), and reveals 'left-handed power (via a co-suffering love at other times). Richard Farrar Capon says:
“Let me refine that a little. I said grace cannot prevail until law is dead, until moralizing is out of the game. The precise phrase should be, until our fatal love affair with the law is over — until, finally and for good, our lifelong certainty that someone is keeping score has run out of steam and collapsed. As long as we leave, in our dramatizations of grace, one single hope of a moral reckoning, one possible recourse to salvation by bookkeeping, our freedom-dreading hearts will clutch it to themselves. And even if we leave none at all, we will grub for ethics that are not there rather than face the liberty to which grace calls us.”
@god_stories@xanga - Hmm ... Must disagree. No human is ever greater than another. No human is ever greater than a cause, no matter how small.
It is the deeds recorded from someone that makes everyone else great in this world because of our ability to learn and know from them. Not the individual itself.
We are all doing good for the greater good of mankind, aren't we ?
Does the flower really want to be cut and placed into a vase or do we just think it looks pretty in there ? Are we no different than these flowers and wouldn't some of us still like to maintain our time in the field instead of being placed in human domicile for a moment of glory to be eventually thrown away with the refuse ?
We are all flesh and blood and aside from some varying body mass, age, wisdom, sex, and race, we are all alike, made in God's image. To worship a man for his deeds, a human, might be considered idol worship (or as I put it idle worship).
While this B. Graham character may have done some good in the world, I'm certain he doesn't want followers, not if you are to follow the true course of Christianity. Wouldn't that be pride or vanity to suggest otherwise ?
Did Jesus want followers ? Or did they just follow him because they admired him or perhaps even feared him and wanted to be on his 'good' side ?
You might be interested in reading an article I wrote HERE.
“‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
I have watched the church's rally against gay people claiming that God punished the city for their sins much like God is punishing America today, I watch churches fight against the evil of universal health care when I wonder why the church does not solve this issue by helping the poor and sick so that the government does not need to.
If God is punishing America, it is because of his flock's attitude towards others, its elitism and condescending attitude toward the sinners. The evil the church is so worried about on the outside of the sacred walls has already made its home within.
Truth need not be preached loudly from the pulpits, it only needs to whisper softly its comfort in ones ear.
- darkshadow6921
"Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, for wisdom and might are His... and he changes the times and the seasons; he removes kings, and sets up kings...." (Daniel 2:21-22). God alone discerns the times; but be assured that He does discern them.
Let the call to repent from wickedness ring true and unhindered: the precious blood of Christ is not a covering for sin to excuse it, but made powerful to wash clean from sin and remove it!
God does see sin and judges it; He gives time to repent (Rev. 2:21), but that time is never to be taken for granted- those who do will find that their time has run out, and God is the judge in that matter.
So my exhortation on this is to take seriously the call to repent, each of us, and expose your own life to the Light of Christ and repent of your sins, washing clean by the blessed water of the Word, and being washed in the blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
@god_stories@xanga - People in rebellion against God is a central theme of the Bible. It started with the first human beings, Adam and Eve.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - perhaps, and love is also a central theme. I suspect fear is at root to rebellion and perfect love casts out all fear (1 Jn 4:18). So it makes sense to me to just love others: those in rebellion, those sinning, those in other religions, those seeking God, those fleeing from God, those fleeing from His church, those suffering, those living with fear, those on the outside, those on the inside.
Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy. That is not our business and, in fact, it is nobody's business. What we are asked to do is to love, and this love itself will render both ourselves and our neighbors worthy if anything can. - Thomas Merton, Trappist monk
@dustysojourner@xanga - "So my exhortation on this is to take seriously the call to repent, each of us"
Amen!
@god_stories@xanga - so the law is dead and God is fresh out of wrath. this is not what the scripture teaches. the power of the law to kill is dead for those who are dead(to the law, to sin and to themselves) in Christ but the law still works death in those who rebel against it. Christ fulfilled the law so submission to Him is submission to the law(even though we do not physically perform every command written in it)
judgement is real and a coming condemnation or exaltation awaits everyone. and yes there are times when God meets that out in this world on groups of people. im not so concerned at this point in the conversation with "is this happening" as i am with "is this possible" because without a consensus on that point there can be no reasonable dialogue beyond it.
@iones_island@xanga - "so the law is dead and God is fresh out of wrath. this is not what the scripture teaches."
I get your sarcasm...and no on both points. I interpret the Bible to say the law is fulfilled (again I encourage you to take a look at Gal 3, seriously, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it) and upon whom does God reserve His wrath? Who, for example, does Jesus reveal His anger...is it the sinners and unbelievers or the Pharisees, church leaders and law abiders?"Christ fulfilled the law so submission to Him is submission to the law" It seems to me that Christ fulfilled the law to reveal His love for us...not love for the law...through a co-suffering love. God always provided a means for the forgiveness of sins...even in the OT.
"judgement is real" I totally agree. "is this possible" Nothing is impossible with God.
What I intend to explore with this post is the nature of God. The God you serve seems an angry God who is ready to punish unbelievers and is so angry at unbelievers that He is willing to destroy all.
The God I serve is a Holy God who loves all people with a love so full that He was willing to allow His son to become incarnate and die an unjust death...just to reveal His love. He was so Holy (authentic) that even to the point of death the sin and injustice of men didn't anger Him nor spur Him to kill anyone...not one! And the only anger He expressed was not towards sinners or unbelievers, but those with hard hearts, who were focused on the law and missed relationship with the incarnate God.
@god_stories@xanga - there's not sarcasm there, simply clarifying your point, which while denying you continue to hammer home.
you're so intent on winning an argument that you've lost the person, and their respect, especially when you resort to snarky condescending divisions such as "your God is a big mean meany but my God loves people." which is a gross and I believe intentional mis-characterization of what I have said as well as completely asinine. if it is not intentional then it shows your lack of understanding which is even more grave a matter. My assertion is that the God of wrath and the God of mercy and grace are the same God. Gods wrath is poured out on all, ALL who are not His. He loves us enough, even in His holy and righteous anger to make a way of escape for us. Of course His anger in His time on earth was focused on those who were "religious" and focused on the letter (as opposed to the heart) of the law; they were putting up road block after road block between people and salvation, even themselves. Jesus didn't just rebuke the leaders of Jerusalem, He also wept over them.
but here you stand, serving "buddy Jesus" who is ok with whatever... no, those whom the Lord loves he rebukes and chastens. yes, God does punish individuals, He does punish groups of people, and He has the prerogative to choose who and when and on what basis that is and to put out a message of zero wrath is just as deadly a lie as saying "once you become a Christian life is roses and cherries and chocolate pie"..
@iones_island@xanga - "simply clarifying your point, which while denying you continue to hammer home." So seems there's two ways of looking at my comments to you: 1) I'm confused or insincere and while denying I disagree with your points at the same time make statements that seem to clearly disagree 2) I do in fact agree with your points (no hidden agenda) and you don't yet see the nuance of the subtle yet critical differentiation I'm making. So it seems an opportunity to look more closely at what I'm saying (perhaps by providing thoughts on Gal 3) or we leave it here and just agree to disagree...unless you see another way of continuing the conversation.
Perhaps an alternative starting place to help us understand what and why we believe what we believe about the nature of God is to ask each other some questions (conversation over coffee likely would be easier, but it may not be impossible to come to a better understanding of each other this way either):
o "Gods wrath is poured out on all, ALL who are not His." - So I'm tempted to think that you think God is angry...if He's angry at everyone except those who are what? Christian, those who are not sinning, who is it that are His and with whom He is not angry? The alternative is that God is love and is angry only at those who promote a vision of Him as angry and hyper-focused on the law...which is totally burdensome for non-believers. And that doesn't mean I don't see purpose nor value (nor God's vision) for the law, but that it's merely a device to draw us into actual loving relationship with Him...not the means to appease God's wrath.o "those who were "religious" and focused on the letter (as opposed to the heart) of the law; they were putting up road block after road block between people and salvation," What do you mean by the heart of the law? I agree He was angry at those dudes that focused on the law rather than actual relationship with a living God. But it seems to me they missed the person of Jesus. I imagine that even if they were focused on the heart of the law they still would have missed actual relationship with Jesus (as in a conversational, loving actual being to being relationship).
o "serving "buddy Jesus" who is ok with whatever" - Hmm, this isn't accurate. So I can't see that anyone is ok with sin...even I (or anyone) who perpetrate sin. And by 'ok' I mean that they see it as the fulfillment of a lifelong dream...and leading to ultimate joy. So it seems to me that the law is meant for our good...and what the law leads to is our ultimate joy, which is an actual relationship with God (a living dynamic being) and pursuit of God given desires in relationship with others. So much of what you say I agree with, but perhaps the point of confusion is that I'm asking a deeper question, which is why? And by asking why, I'm really asking for deeper intimacy with God. I want to know His heart to be His friend rather than just His servant, to know why He does what He does, rather than just doing what He tells me to do.
And that last thought is also why I wrote this post...to understand why others believe what they believe as a means to actual relationship.