Saturday, 30 June 2012
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Reformed Theology and the Future
By Nic Don at Theopolitical
In my understanding, unconditional election is so called because God elects individuals with absolutely no reliance upon their decisions. The reason this is theologically necessary to believe is that if a person’s decisions contributed in any way to their salvation, they would to that degree be earning their salvation.Is that accurate in all the essential points?
If that is the case, is it also true that God elects individuals to salvation without any reliance upon the free decisions of others? Can my free-will decisions affect God’s decision to elect someone else to salvation? If so, doesn’t that make election, in that restricted sense, conditional? And if not, how do things like evangelism and sexual reproduction function in God’s economy?
In my understanding, the answer to those questions is that, no, God’s decision to elect is not influenced by any creature’s actions, and that evangelism and sexual reproduction function like everything else: they are action taken on freely, and then “ordered” by God to bring about the results God desires. In this way, God exercises meticulous control over creation, but without crushing freedom and without authoring sin.
I am fairly confident that I have all of this correct, though I am happy to receive instruction from my Reformed friends. I am far from expert on this branch of theology.
But my real question follows from all of this. My real question is how precisely this ordering of free acts functions. Specifically, is there an identifiable chronological order to (1) election, (2) free-will acts and (3) God’s ordering? I ask because these things all interrelate in a complex way that seems to defy any such chronological ordering, and which seems to make election necessarily rather more conditional than not.
Example: Let us say that Samuel Jenkins (1902-1914) is a young man who lived his tragically short life in New Orleans. His father grew up in New York but after some mismanagement drove his company went into the ground and moved to New Orleans, where he met the woman who became Samuel’s mother. Before Samuel’s death he heard a traveling evangelist preach, and he became a Christian. Now, did God elect that Samuel would become a Christian before God ordered the freely chosen acts of his father, including his poor business decisions and his decision to move to New Orleans? If so, did God foresee that Samuel’s father would make such decisions, resulting in Samuel’s birth in the first place? If so, what did God order or determine to come about?
Or, on the other hand, did God determine that someone called Samuel Jenkins would be born in the first place, and order the events of his father and mother’s lives to that end, so that God could elect Samuel to salvation? If this is the case, again, God does not author sin or calamity, but orders it. So God uses Samuel’s father’s mismanagement of his company to drive him to New Orleans. But Samuel’s father was always going to mismanage the company, right? God simply uses that toward the goal of producing and thus electing Samuel Jenkins. Doesn’t that make Samuel’s election conditional upon his father’s mistakes and decisions? Otherwise, don’t we have to say that God’s ordering is chronologically prior to Samuel’s father’s actions? But how can that be, without making God not only order, but author sin, which is certainly not the Reformed position.
Perhaps I am deeply misunderstanding the Reformed view of how God interacts with the world. I hope one of my philosophically inclined Reformed friends can put me on the right track.
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Comments (28)
Earnings are the result of a prior agreement in which labor or capital is exchanged for material goods.
Consequently, one does not "earn" by making a decision since a decision is an act of free will, not necessarily any sort of agreement involving earnings. Free will is in fact, the part of human nature that is the very image of God.
So it must never be demeaned by calling it "earnings" which is a worldly concept.
Further, since God is infinite and spiritual it follows that there is nothing man, who is finite and material, can do to "earn" anything from God.
So the claim that a human decision is a form of earnings with regard to God is false.
False teachings are by definition heresy and must be rejected since they are not authentic Gospel teachings.
I'm not a theologian, but I think you are hubristic in thinking we can understand God and how he operates. I know some people would accuse me of coping out by saying that, but to me, the belief that God is beyond my imagination is a critical, foundational tenet of God.
Great post. Very thought-provoking logic.
In 1 Timothy 2:4: God wills the salvation of all men. Also, we are called upon to pray for all men. The Our faather for instance has no"me", nor "I "in it, but "Our Father" not my father. Good post, but I don't understant reformed theology at all, will read some more of your post to see if I can get a grasp of it.
The good sheperd, leaves the 99 to seek out the one.
Peace
Mark
God allowing us to either receive or reject Jesus does not amount to earning salvation. We are freely choosing to receive what God wants to freely give us. If I have a $100 bill in my hand and I offer it to you as a free gift, you can choose to take it or reject it. If you take the free gift I'm offering you, you are not receiving it because you earned it. It's a free gift I'm giving to you.
I dont think Reformed Theology aka Predestination aka Calvinism actually works or makes sense in light of scripture. I do not agree God partakes in meticulous providence. I lean more toward free-will and would be more apt to go to the extreme of open theism than of Calvinism.
You should read:
The Storms of Providence: Navigating the Waters of Calvinism, Arminianism, and Open Theism by Michael D. Robinson
For those who believe they truly have a genuine ' Free-Will ', then the question I must ask is " Why then do so called believers Freely choose to keep sinning?
We pretend to know God's mind and will. Is he perfect? Is he capable of hating his creation? If he is perfect, and only perfect in his mind, why would he create 3/4 of us to be burned in a place called hell, only mentioned 600 years ago by the Vatican. Does God wish for us to know him as best as we can, and apply the 2nd commandment to the best of our abilities? Of course. Does he know we are going to fail miserably, since the human level simply isn't Godly or, even angelic, yes, he does. We have free will, but, because we aren't perfect, we goof up, and frequently have to start over.
@Composer - Because only Jesus is without sin here in this life on earth. Saying we don't have freewill doesn't solve the question but makes it worse. It makes God contradictory. It's God's will that we don't sin but he would be making us sin, since we don't have freewill.
@Pollypinks@xanga - The ancient Jews believed in hell and both Jesus and Saint John mention it in the New Testament.
Jesus called it Gehenna. And Saint John referred to it as a burning lake of sulfur.The threat of hell actually produces more moral people. A study just came out showing that. People from all over the world were studied.
The most crime prone people were those who only believed in heaven.
According to reformed theology yes you basically understand it.
Pollypinks wrote: Because only Jesus is without sin here in this life on earth.
Me: The biblical Story book jesus is a human invention and Historical myth!
Pollypinks wrote: Saying we don't have freewill doesn't solve the question but makes it worse.
Me: Incorrect! Because the fact you xtians admit you keep sinning only proves that you are frauds and you hve no Free-Will in the slightest!
Everyone who resides23 in him does not sin;24 everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. (1 John 3:6) NET Story book
So even your own preferred Story book condemns you!
Pollypinks wrote: It makes God contradictory.
Me: The Story book god is contradictory and a narcissistic bastard and lousy parent to boot!
Pollypinks wrote: It's God's will that we don't sin
Me: Then obviously you admit it's own will is a failure!
Pollypinks wrote:but he would be making us sin, since we don't have freewill.
Me: That's gibberish!
@Composer - Pollypinks didn't say that, I did.
You're the typical ignorant atheist who quotes a scripture and acts like a bible scholar. It's obvious you have no comprehension of hermeneutics and the Greek language. The Greek word is future possessive and means to continually keep sinning and disobeying God without ever repenting. The Greek word is not speaking of committing a sin. Just read I John 1:8-10. Nice try.
ordering freely-chosen acts? this does not make ANY sense to me.
I have been trying to wrap my brain around this theology lately in light of my desire to understand calvanis,, but I just does not make sense. at all. ???
so confused!
The only verse I can point at is Deuteronomy 29:29. Blessings!
Let me say from the outset, that I am 3/5 Calvinistic in that I acknowledge three of the five points of Calvinism: Total depravity, Unconditional election, and Irresistible grace. I believe the atonement was universal in its provision, but limited in its application since God chose who would be saved. I believe that as long as we are "diligent to make our calling and election sure, for if we do these things, you shall never fall." thus, our perseverance is dependent upon our obedience. An act of disobedience doesn't mean loss of salvation, but loss of fellowship; continued deliberate disobedience and hardening of the heart to God's appeals to return to fellowhip, puts a former believer in peril of their soul.
As to your topic and interesting question, I'm not sure why you feel that Samuel's dad sinned by failing in business. You could avoid this altogether by submitting a different scenario: "Samuel-2" is born of rape by a male parent, but finds Christ and eventually forgives what his father/grandfather did to his mother/step-sister. Did God ordain that the man rape his daughter to produce Samuel, whom He had elected to salvation? I suppose that makes your question even more unpleasantly challenging to the Calvinistic dogma.
The underlying theme in this question is "What is the extent of the Sovereignty of God in human affairs?" For that answer, you'll have to pursue the writings of teachers like A.W.Pink who helped open my eyes to the scripture on this topic. Personally, I think he took it too far in areas, and he was a 5 point Calvinist where I am not. But, he does an excellent job of presenting the case and handling objections such as the one you have posed. In brief, man is fully responsible for his sins, but God is all-powerful so He can control, limit and direct the outworkings of human depravity, so as to, for example:
- save the nation of Israel and the Egyptians from famine by "allowing" some jealous brothers to try to kill, then sell their own brother-- a dreamer and interpreter of dreams-- into slavery.
- save humans from the penalty of sin by having some jealous murderous people deliver His perfect Son to the Priests for unwitting inspection of the Passover Lamb, of whom it was said: "I find no fault in Him." and "it is better that one die for the people." These evildoers were ordained in their sins to carry out the crimes against God's Son to benefit us all.
No, obviously God doesn't author sin, but He is able to control human behavior: " A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."(Proverbs) "In Him we live and MOVE and have our being"(Acts) "In His hand is our breath and all our ways" (Daniel) Augustine said that God divides the darkness as it pleases Him. So, I agree that God had to decree that Samuel would be born, but I don't agree that it makes God the author of business failure or rape; He and the angels are working to bring about the desired events, the birth of a specific individual as well as their conversion.
As to the moral questions pertaining to that birth, each case will be different. It may be that the birth of this illegitimate son was the stimulus that the male parent needed to repent of his self-centered life and become a better man. Rape is a crime and incest is repulsive to us, but, on the other hand, historically, rape of sorts was one way to enter marriage (see also Honeymoon ) and incest was tolerated in man's early history.
Here is the actual theological topic that you are debating: http://www.gotquestions.org/lapsarianism.html
I guess I'm a mixture of the second and the third. Some of this stuff is like "straining at gnats".
P.S., You indicated that "unconditional election" means that God's choice is not dependent upon any human choice, which is not the meaning of the term. It simply means that God's choice is entirely independent of the behavior or character of the one He chooses. It's "not of him that runneth (Jacob), or of him that willeth (Isaac), but of God that showeth mercy". God decides to whom He will be merciful and whom He will not show mercy since He is sovereign. (Romans 9) Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. These concepts are intolerable to Western minds.
@musterion99@xanga - You're the typical ignorant atheist
Me: We atheists are honest, whilst you big-mouthed wanna-be a genuine Story book believer are frauds and liars for your mythical being jesus!
@musterion99@xanga - who quotes a scripture and acts like a bible scholar.
Me: At least you recognise my ability to successfully emulate a scholar, pity YOU can't and don't do well at all you loser!
@musterion99@xanga - It's obvious you have no comprehension of hermeneutics
Me: hermeneutics is what corrupted the Earliest & Original beliefs which scholars admit were NOT trinitarian!
The Trinity Admitted to be False"The propositions constitutive of the dogma of the Trinity were not drawn from the New Testament and could not be expressed in New Testament terms. They were the products of reason speculating on a revelation to faith. . . they were only formed through centuries of effort, only elaborated by the aid of the conceptions and formulated in the terms of Greek and Roman metaphysics." (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica) I
"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian…It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament
and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).
The Trinity "is not directly and immediately the Word of God" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 304).
So I suggest you stick your hermeneutics in the trash if you wish to be like the Earliest & Original believer and I'll ensure that your Snake-Oil hermeneutics hardly see the light of day apart from exposing them!
Then you can follow that by sticking your 100% bible in the trash, as it is nothing more than a human concoction!
@musterion99@xanga - and the Greek language. The Greek word is future possessive and means to continually keep sinning and disobeying God without ever repenting. The Greek word is not speaking of committing a sin. Just read I John 1:8-10. Nice try.
Me: A genuine believer doesn't need to ask for repentence, because a genuine believer doesn't sin any longer i.e. according to your preferred 100% Story book -
No one who abides in him sins; * no one who sins has either seen him or known him. . . . . He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. (1 John 3:6, 8) catholic edition RSV Story book
Your dishonest and shameful Snake-Oil method of using one Story book text to refute another is always fatal to causes like yours and is typical of losers, liars and apparently ' devils ' like you!
Atheists and especially those that died on the various Battle-fields for both Non-believers and believers (IF one can ever be found outside of bible Story book Land?) and Atheists can continue to accurately proclaim and say with pride, that we are superior to your Story book jesus in every way, unlike frauds like you & the Story book jesus you ' claim to want to follow but don't even do that, whose fundamental motivation for your and its unwarranted scam, was one of personal greed and lust for divine Story book rewards of which those frauds like you also lust!
Much much better luck next times loser, Story book jesus reject and malignant sinner boy!
Once again, we have to realize that the original texts were changed, translated, 600 years ago, to satisfy the beastly needs of the vatican. Gehenna: Old English for hell, unseen, hidden. Hebrew: sheol, Greek: Geenna. Peter says God spares no sinning messengers but subjects them to caverns of gloom, or, "tartasusing." He is not giving legitimacy to the Greek's notion of the unseen world. He is adapting this word for his own purpose. It appears in Plato's Phaedo and Homer's Iliad. Concordant Greek text p. 667. Tartarusing is not being given legitimacy. Tartarus does not exist. Sinning messengers are being kept for chastening judgment: 2 Peter 2- 4. Chastening-kolasis speaks of discipline, training, literally hitting, we may rejoice that they are being kept for this. Heb 12:7-11 I'd like to read the study you mentioned.
@Composer - The reason sin is sin is because we choose it.
Structures of sin that produce compulsions and ingrained wickedness are still beatable through the development of spiritual virtues such as charity and prayer.
Choosing to undergo that sort of development is an act of free will.
Spiritual, mental and emotional brokenness can be healed through discipleship. And the main thing that is built up is free will.
The will must be developed by exercising it and applying it the proper way. Christianity teaches that Way.
@Composer - Atheists can continue to accurately proclaim and say with pride, that we are superior to your Story book jesus in every way
lol! - You're hilarious. Thanks for the laughs.
@Pollypinks@xanga - The Church has been scrupulous about it's translations of the Bible from the mother tongues. The linguistic pathway from past to present is there for any scholar to see with his own eyes.
So the notion that the eeeeevil Vatican has some sort of conspiracy going is complete nonsense.Catholic scholarship has always been impeccable and dependable especially were biblical translations are concerned.
Each Catholic Bible has an "imprimatur" and a "nihil obstat" certification from a duly appoint bishop and shows the year of the translation used. My Bible says 1611.
@markdohle - "we are called upon to pray for all men."
Agreed. What kind of God would wish to save only some?
I feel lucky to be Catholic, to see a continuity from creation to our now that is bigger than our choice to follow, to want to understand the world as it is instead of trying to use it as an object, to be able to look to the Church for signs of God's love instead of trying to measure the holiness others...
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - The reason sin is sin is because we choose it.
Me: Sin is Sin because those humans that concocted your Fairy Tale Story book fabricated it and dupes like you still fall for their Snake-Oil!
In order to sin against a Supernatural god there must exist a literal Supernatural god and not a single person in History outside of Story book Land has ever produced one!
The James Randi Organisation has a substantial prize for any that can and that prize could be donated to a worthy charity. So far no one has claimed it so I'll wait whilst one of you clowns do, LOL!
You: Structures of sin that produce compulsions and ingrained wickedness are still beatable through the development of spiritual virtues such as charity and prayer.
Me: 1 John 3:6 in your favourite Story book disagrees!
IF you were a genuine believer you wouldn't keep on sinning! The fact you ALL admit you still do only manifests your fraudulent claims!
You: Choosing to undergo that sort of development is an act of free will.
Me: #1 - Choosing NOT to keep sinning is also an act of Free-Will, but alas you ALL agree you can't and hence your ' Free-Will ' is a lie!
You: Spiritual, mental and emotional brokenness can be healed through discipleship. And the main thing that is built up is free will.
Me: Your comment are Rubbish! Proof see #1 above!
You: The will must be developed by exercising it and applying it the proper way. Christianity teaches that Way.
Me: So says the malignant sinner and its malignant sinning associates, LOL!
Composer
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - The Church has been scrupulous about it's translations of the Bible from the mother tongues.
Me: ' The Church ' LOL! Story book jesus was a Jew so you are referring to the Jews of course!
You: The linguistic pathway from past to present is there for any scholar to see with his own eyes.So the notion that the eeeeevil Vatican has some sort of conspiracy going is complete nonsense.
Me: An accurate analysis of your preferred Story book exposes the catholic Popes as prime examples as frauds, liars and fallen angels destined for the Lake of Fire = annihilation and the catholic Cult as a Pagan based corrupt tree bearing rotten fruit!
e.g. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, . . . . (Matt. 7:18) KJV Story book
Only last week a catholic monsigneur was jailed for his disgusting crimes and the list of paedophile, nun-raping and homosexual catholic priests, continues to pollute our various media!
You: Catholic scholarship has always been impeccable and dependable especially were biblical translations are concerned.
Each Catholic Bible has an "imprimatur" and a "nihil obstat" certification from a duly appoint bishop and shows the year of the translation used. My Bible says 1611.
Me: Same as the morals were always impeccable, LOL!
The catholics standards are so debased and immoral their Pagan based NON-Original beliefs are worthy of the Trash can or the Re-Cycle bin!
You can't understand Reformed theology if you start with the assumption that there is such a thing as free will.
Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
As for your request, "I hope one of my philosophically inclined Reformed friends can put me on the right track." –– How about the words of the apostle Paul himself?
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
God's ways & thoughts are higher than ours. After writing about unconditional election in Romans 9-11, Paul concludes that section of the letter with this wonderful doxology:
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
Unsearchable. Inscrutable. God is God, and we are not! Let us kiss the Son, and bow down & tremble before the throne of God that He has made a way through Jesus Christ for undeserving and vile sinners like us to stand in the judgment and to be brought back to God!
God is sovereign, and He ordains and makes use of the choices and actions of men to accomplish His purposes, and yet He does not sin in doing so, and men are accountable for their actions.
Consider Cyrus as well as the crucifixion of Christ:
Isaiah 46
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
God is the great I AM, wholly self-sufficient and not dependent on anyone, though He does make use of means, but the means are all according to the counsel of His will. What kind of God would God really be if He made Himself dependent on the activity of man?