Friday, 18 May 2012
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"He Allows Too Much Bad": God and His Plan
I just saw a blog over at Revelife. The post asks, "Do you believe God is hands-off or a puppeteer?" I answered, "Neither. I have seen Him miraculously intervene too many times to think He is "Hands off". And I have seen Him not too many times to think He is "a puppeteer". I don't see why such a complex question should have only two possible answers either. This is how I feel about it." And then I linked them here. This is something I have heard and thought about deeply. I think it comes back to love. (It is my strong opinion that a lot of people today have no idea what real love is or is all about, but to avoid getting diverted to that topic, let me just say real love always wants what is best for it's object, and is never forced.) So, if God loves us, He could not create us as little robots who have no conception of doing anything other than His Will. Without the freedom to choose for ourselves, it would be the same as brainwashing, or locking us in a cage. I can't conceive of how that would be honest or loving. It certainly wouldn't be genuine. And all that is completely against the nature of God.
Second, you have the question of suffering. There is no other way for us to have free will though, without having the suffering of the innocent. Some will suffer at the hands of those who choose to use their free will to that end. And some will suffer due to the imperfection that came along with the fall from grace. I would like to point out here, that suffering usually makes people stronger. People who grow up with no suffering, and given everything they want right when they want it seem to end up the most troubled and unhappy adults. So you will have a hard time convincing me that God needs to disallow the suffering that goes on because then we all would be spoiled little brats with no appreciation. Also, Jesus suffered plenty Himself when He that never knew what the filth of sin felt like, took on the sins of anyone who would ever be born from Adam and Eve to the future of people who have yet to be born - all at once. And that after suffering the physical pain of the whipping post and cross. Everyone has their own cross to bear.
Thirdly, God does know every single possible scenario and outcome. And I most certainly do believe He has a plan for all of us, only we have to surrender to Him to see it happen. He gave us free will, so the power to ruin those plans is in our hands, if we reject Him and His ways. The good news is, God really can turn your mourning into dancing, if you just let Him. But, I digress. There are times when, because He can see every scenario possible, He does choose to intervene and miraculously change things.
I have never believed that when He chooses not to though, that it is due to a lack of faith on anyone's part. Sometimes Dad just says "No." And, there is no doubt He has His reasons. But, that does not mean that it was originally "His Will" for that suffering to happen. Remember, it was "His Will" for us to remain perfect in the Garden of Eden. But where we are now, there are so many factors to be taken in about what would happen if He intervened. If you've ever watched It's A Wonderful Life, you can get an idea of how many lives we touch and influance, and the ripple affect that has on other lives. And, not being able to see every possible scenario for the decades to come, we really aren't in a position to ever say God was wrong to choose not to intervene. Realizing this makes the element of faith not quite so hard for me.
Also, sometimes what we might think would be a good thing turns out to be a very bad thing, sometimes even the worse thing we could think of. Sometimes I think of it like this, for God, not intervening may have been making a choice of the lesser of two evils. Since I can't see every possible scenario, I don't know how much it would change things. But, I can see many other instances to tell His nature, and by what I can see, I know it is not in His nature to cause suffering to the innocent. By this I can trust that when He does not intervene, it must be part of His plan.
Do you think God has a unique and specific plan for you? Do you think he knows what is going to happen next? Do you think he intervenes sometimes and not other times? How do you define what God's plan for your life is?
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- From: mtngirlsouth@xanga
- Name: Samantha
- About Me: Learning, growing, settling in my beliefs. Love to learn new things. Becoming less and less concerned with what others think of me. My faith is the Cornerstone of my beliefs, and I will not sway on that.
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Comments (103)
Good post. I agree.
I have never believed that when He chooses not to though, that it is due to a lack of faith on anyone's part.As I said on OP, sometimes it is lack of faith and sometimes it's not. This is the only thing I disagreed on. All through the bible, there are examples of people's doubt and lack of faith playing a part in what God may or may not do at specific times. It doesn't mean it's all the time this way, but it is sometimes. Of course God is sovereign and can do what he wants.
Thank you for this post; I have no doubt that there will be one person out there on Xanga who absolutely needed to read this, even though you might now know of that person until heaven. God bless you for it!
This is one of the best post Revelife has had in a long, long time.
It was my Revelife article that you reference at the beginning of yours. This is not a new topic. David and Solomon both struggled with it. I truly do understand the theology. God loves us, and because he loves us he gives us free will. We chose to go our own way in the garden and continue to do so, and because of sin there is in evil in the world and that means that bad things happen to both the innocent and the guilty. At times God choses to intervene, and at times he doesn't and that is his choice because he is sovereign. He has a plan for our lives. Sometimes we see it and sometimes we don't, but if we continue to draw close to him we will be better able to discern his will and see his plan. I held tight to that understanding for many, many years, and as a Minister I preached it for many, many years, but I was always troubled by something. That theology holds up well when we are talking about difficulties that most of us endure in life; hardship, sickness, or the death of someone we love. It begins to break down, however, when you begin to discuss catastrophic evil like the holocaust, genocide, slavery, or human trafficking. At some point you have to ask yourself why God would intervene when you pray for aunt Sally to get better but not intervene when a ruthless dictator slaughters millions of his own people. To me, saying "well, God is sovereign and he sees the bigger picture, a picture that in our limited view is impossible for us to comprehend" is a copout. To choose to intervene for some and not for others (especially when that suffering is horrific) would certainly appear to make God capricious at best, and possibly downright cruel. It's hard to imagine a "plan" in which allowing the Holocaust makes any kind of sense. Our beliefs are always influenced by our circumstances. In the article you referenced I mentioned my Mother's battle with Schizophrenia. I added a later follow-up comment in which I explained that her disease was diagnosed when I was seven. Shortly thereafter my father abandoned the family for all intents and purposes because he was unable to handle the stress of dealing with a severely mentally ill person. When he was home his frustration often turned to violence and he would take it out on me; once beating me so severely that he put me into a coma for six weeks. As an only child I became the primary caregiver for my mother and remained so until she died when I was 20. Needless to say, my childhood was not sunshine and roses. I prayed thousand of times for God to intervene in that situation and he never did. For me to believe that God simply chose not too because of some bigger plan makes it very difficult for me to find him to be someone I wish to worship. I don't have any problem with the concept of original sin. I also believe that God loves us and because he loves us he gives us free will. I also believe that we chose to reject God and because of that there is evil in the world. But that is the point at which my beliefs begin to differ. I believe that God intervened when he sent his Son to die for us and that outside of that he does not intervene in our daily lives. I believe his plan for me is to try to emulate the qualities we attribute to him and that is as far as it goes. You may pity me for that belief but to me seeing the world that way makes God much more loving than a God who appears arbitrary in his interventions. You said that you can't understand why such a complex question can only have two answers. I believe that at as Christians we have made it unnecessarily complex because we aren't comfortable with the idea of a world in which every occurrence doesn't have some sort of deeper meaning. Just like Occam's razor says; the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. This is the solution I've chosen.
God has a plan for the church. Period.
God answers my prayers. Not sure about whether He listens to you.
@ColdSkivvies@xanga - That's a unique way to look at it for me. I've always been told that God intervenes in daily things, so I guess I've incorporated that into my way of thinking. However, yours also makes sense for your circumstances and for things like you said- large scale disasters that God seemingly didn't intervene in at all. Those sorts of things bother me too. Thanks for the new perspective.
Also, I am sorry for your mother's illness and your father's inability to cope. I'm glad that you made it through all of that alive and kicking.
@soccerdadforlife@xanga - I wanted to let you know that God made a one time exception for me earlier today and agreed to hear a prayer. During our subsequent conversation he did make it clear to me that he does love you much more than he loves me. He also told me that he can't stand being questioned and that I need to cut it out. Finally, He wanted to me to let you know that the reasoned, compassionate, and loving way that you respond on Revelife to those who disagree with you is causing the many unbelievers who read this site come to Christ by the thousands and to keep up the good work! My only regret is that God spent the only conversation he was going to allow me to have with him talking about you.
@ColdSkivvies@xanga - Sucks to be u, suckah! ;)
Nah, my main point was that the whole notion that God has a plan for the life of individuals is narcissistic. God has a plan for the church.
I have some speculations about why some prayers are heard and not others, but you might not like my specs. Controversy warning.
My original comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.
@ColdSkivvies@xanga - Oh, was that sarcasm? It totally flew over my head. I'm on 8 for 26 this month.
I felt like God allowed too many bad things to happen in my life and it really hurt my faith....I think I'm still trying to recover
@ColdSkivvies@xanga - First of all, haven't you heard of the amazing stories of God's intervention during the holocaust? There are plenty of stories of Jewish people that should've died and didn't, or children that should've died, but didn't. Yes, God didn't save every innocent person, but you can't say God simply turned a blind eye. So when you ear amazing stories of God's intervention, do you just think it is coincidence? And if so, how many coincidences must you see, to believe it is more than that?
Second of all, I don't believe God changes. So why would God do one grand gesture of sending Jesus to die for us, and then afterwards responded by saying, Fuck off suckers! That doesn't make sense to me.
Third of all, it seems to me that you believe that God should limit our free will, but isn't that a contradiction?
Fourth, you say the best answer is the simplest answer, but I don't think God is simple. He is perfect and we are flawed. I don't think we have the capacity to understand God, I think that is what makes him God.
Fifth, all evil is equal. We don't like to admit that because we don't like to think of ourselves as evil, but without God, we are 100% horrendously evil, so I don't think we should view have levels of evil as if some people are better than others. I'm just as evil as Hitler. Additionally, since we are so evil, if God is not intervening, I think the world would be much worse than it is.
Sixth, I think Jesus is the answer for those 'victims' of evil, because without him, we deserve pain and suffering. Additionally, he is the only person that can completely sympathize with victims, because he suffered and he didn't deserve it, AND he did it so that he could intervene on our behalf's and so that he could heal our wounds.
I think don't mean to be argumentative, but I just don't think your theology lines up with what the Bible says is the nature of man or the nature of God.
The only contexts of making someone suffer because you love them are BDSM, abusive relationships, and religion.
BDSM gets a pass because it is role-playing. Abusive relationships are rightly condemned. Religion stumbling through the problem of evil (theology has swept it under the carpet, at best) shouldn't be accepted on dogma alone, and it is an embarrassment to the intellect that it gets a free pass on such sadomasochism.
@ColdSkivvies@xanga - You said it is a cop out. I say it is only evidence that we do not know everything and He does. You referred to the holocaust. I have read a book by a woman who endured it, Corrie Ten Boom. It is called "The Hiding Place". She describes her experience, and how God showed her the building she would have one day, and also how God made a small bottle of liquid vitamins last the entire two years she was there, sharing the whole time with all the others in her room. That's a miracle. She was there, and she did not think it made God cruel.
Your experience was indeed horrible. And we won't know why God chose not to intervene in yours until we get our new bodies and have a better understanding. You are also free to believe whatever you wish. It just doesn't make any sense to me, compared with the God of the Bible and the many many stories where He has chosen to intervene. Why would He tell us to pray always and cast EVERY care upon Him? What was Jesus talking about when He said the Comforter would come? And when He said He would be with us always even to the end of the world?
The lives of the disciples were filled with torment, and God allowed that too. Jesus said they would try to kill us and after what they did to Him, our King, what could we expect?
I think you are mad at God for not intervening. I don't blame you. I went through my own personal hell and was very mad at God for not intervening for me also. At the same time, there have been many times in my own life where He has intervened and made a difference. I had to come to the point when I realized that He is the One in charge and we are going to do this on His terms or not at all. And after all He went through on the cross, who am I to *expect* to not have to suffer?
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - So, if someone you love is addicted to poison that is killing them, and to get them off may cause them suffering, the best way to love them is to allow them to poison themselves to death?
Giving a baby shots hurts them, and they only see the hurt. Your comment is like the baby thinking that the parents must not love him for allowing him to suffer.
@mtngirlsouth@xanga - You're deliberately choosing examples where a little pain leads to a greater alleviation of pain. Real-life analogous examples aren't so fortunate. People who suffer excruciating deaths aren't leading into anything better.
My point is that religious people can either admit that theistic claims about suffering are at best unfalsifiable, or they can admit that God is at best indifferent. Wrapping up suffering as a divine gift is disgusting.
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - "People who suffer excruciating deaths aren't leading into anything better." You would have to know a lot more than any human is capable of to know this.
I am not wrapping up suffering as a divine gift. I am saying God can use the wreck we have made of life here and turn it into a blessing.
@Lynn Males@facebook - "Do you mean to say it was in God's "perfect plan" for my beloved puppy to die in this way? By extension, was it God's "perfect plan" for his mother to die of a ruptured uterus?"
It was God's *perfect* plan for humans to have obeyed Him in the Garden. A LOT has changed since then.
@mtngirlsouth@xanga - "You would have to know a lot more than any human is capable of to know this."
You'd have to know more than any human being to assert God's existence, much more a plan of his, in the first place. That's why I said it is an unfalsifiable claim. I.E., one that isn't provable nor disprovable.
You can't have your cake and eat it too; you can't hold skeptics accountable for your unaccountability.
@Lynn Males@facebook - to be honest, I find your view much more logical. You hold God responsible for evil and therefore don't believe, but @ColdSkivvies@xanga - holds God responsible but still believes.... That is what I don't understand...
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - I have my own personal experience that tells me He does exist. You can believe me foolish or lying. How am I "holding skeptics accountable for my unaccountability"?
@ColdSkivvies@xanga - @mtngirlsouth@xanga - I keep thinking about what Coldskivvies said, "I prayed thousand of times for God to intervene in that situation and he never did."
I think as christians, we have to remember God did not give us a formula for answered prayer. God never said, if you have complete faith in prayer, I will ALWAYS answer your prayer. God never said if continue to pray consistent prayer, I will ALWAYS answer your prayer. And one of the reasons for this is, he is God, and we are not. If there was a formula for answered prayer then we could manipulate God and he would no longer be God.
Personally, I think I've been learning this lesson in my life in a least drastic way. I think it is a necessary but difficult lesson to learn that we cannot manipulate God into ANYTHING.
@AmyDoo@xanga - Exactly. He is what He is, take it or leave it.
(Assuming God is real, which in itself a separate argument)
If God does love us as you say It does and also allows us free will, then God would allow us to be independent from it without suffering. For example, if my parent really loves me, he will allow me to slowly lose my dependence on him as I grow to become my own person. Yet many Christians do not feel this way about God, and so I think the notion of "God" giving us "free will" is a misnomer in the same way that a child who must live with his abusive parents or die out in the cold has free will.
@Lynn Males@facebook - What do you think of what I said?
@Lynn Males@facebook - well, I think you are logical, but I don't agree. But that is ok. We don't have to agree.
Funny thing though, I do think faith makes me seem crazy. But I'm ok with that too. ;)
@DrummingMediocrity@xanga - I think the metaphor of parent/child in Christianity isn't a perfect one, because in Christianity, we will always 100% need God and we can never be independent of him. God isn't just God, he is also Lord. The free will belief about Christianity is simply, do we accept him as Lord or not...