Saturday, 12 May 2012
-
A Conversation at Church Camp
13 year-old-me to Counselor at Church Camp: My mom was diagnosed with Schizophrenia. I keep praying for her to get better, but she just keeps getting worse. Why won’t God make her better?
Camp Counselor: I can think of two possible reasons. The first is that it might be God’s plan for her to have Schizophrenia.
Me: Why would God have a plan like that?
Camp Counselor: God works in mysterious ways that we can’t understand. We might not be able to see it, but God might be able to use her disease to bring about great good in other people’s lives.
Me: Ok...what’s the other possible reason?
Camp Counselor: Well, God says that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed that we can move mountains. Maybe you don’t have enough faith.
Me: So my choices are; God wants my mom to be sick because it’s his plan, or it’s my fault because I don’t have enough faith?
Camp Counselor: Yes
Me: That’s pretty fucked up.
I didn’t really say that because I didn’t talk that way then. I do talk that way now, however, and what amazes me is that after hundreds of exchanges like this during my formative years I still went on to Bible College and Seminary and became a minister instead of asking God to go create a cliff and then jump off of it. It actually took me another 20 years to allow myself to see how seriously disturbed that kind of rhetoric is.Perhaps it’s in our DNA to want to believe that God has an intricate plan that involves every aspect of our lives. I think it makes us feel more safe and secure and allows us to attribute meaning to events that seem arbitrary and random. I believed strongly that God had a detailed plan for my life for a long time. However, after years in the ministry dealing with people who had endured unspeakable tragedy, I finally had to admit that it was impossible for me to hold onto that belief without concluding that God is a sick bastard.
I mentioned this conclusion to my small group at church the other evening. I said that my position is that the world can be a bad place and if you live in the world bad things might very well happen to you regardless of whether you’re good or bad or how you label yourself. I went on to say that I think God’s “plan” is for us to strive to have the positive attributes we ascribe to him and that outside of that, I don’t think God gets involved in the ins and outs of our daily lives.
Amid gasps of horror I decided to press the point. I went on to say that as a group we spent a lot of time praying for sick people and that, in my opinion, it’s probably kind of a waste of time. I suggested that it might be better to just stand around and hold hands and hope their doctor went to a good medical school.For me, believing that God created us but maintains a “hands off” policy with our daily lives doesn’t make him less loving. In fact, the thought of a God that manipulates events like a puppeteer controlling a marionette according to a plan only he is capable of understanding is the antithesis of love.
Do you think God has a distinct plan laid out for your life, or is His plan less about the intricacies and more about your response to what happens in life? Do you believe God is hands-off or a puppeteer?
Related Posts
Post a Comment
- Back to revelife's Revelife Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in revelife's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)
About the Author
-
- From: ColdSkivvies@xanga
- Name: Not telling
- Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma, United States
- About Me: Have you ever noticed that the "featured content" on the Xanga main page is all from people 25 and younger? Do they not think that those of us over 50 have something to say?! Well, I certainly do, and I'm going to say it as soon as the orderly here at the nursing home wipes the drool off my chin and wheels me over to the computer!
-
Premium
Stats: This Week All Time Posts: 0 4 Views: 0 6070 Comments: 0 92 View all posts by ColdSkivvies@xanga
Comments (65)
Just wanna respond a bit haha, I DO NOT THINK GOD IS A PUPPETEER!!! most of the time, people would be frustrated when God does NOT do things according to their ways....
well He is God, we can never know what He means, the example of Joseph would always come to me whenever it's like this (Genesis 50:19-21) ALSO Romans 8:28, and surely God has a plan for everyone of us =]
I agree with some of what you concluded, but not everything. I agree that the world is a bad place and bad things can happen regardless of whether you're a Christian or not. I disagree though that God doesn't get involved in our lives. I think he does when he chooses to, which may not be all the time. But that doesn't mean he never does. You say it's a waste of time praying for sick people, which obviously means you've never experienced answer to prayers in that area while millions of other Christians testify that they have. And I also agree that God doesn't manipulate us like a puppet. I believe he gives us freewill.
That's fine if you think that, but that's not what scripture says. Scripture says that God is involved in everything and is sovereign over all things.
So either the Bible is wrong or you're wrong, but it can't be both. Like I said, it's fine if you want to come to that conclusion, but you need to consider logically the implications of taking that stance.
I don't know how to say it nicely so I'll just say it, to be frank. I don't think you really understand the Christian faith. At least, you're not articulating it that way in this article. I'm not really sure where to begin, but you seem to be struggling with the problem of evil.
So all that to say, what I'm about to say may help. 1) Bad things happen to people because the world is fallen. It's cursed. And last time I checked, being cursed is not a good thing. All people experience some sort of heartache, pain, or suffering to some extent. 2) For the Christian, suffering is part of sanctification. Scripture is clear on that. "Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." -Romans 8:17. Suffering is part of how we become more like Christ. 3) God never promised we wouldn't suffer. If he did, and then we still suffered, then we'd have a problem. But he never said we wouldn't. In fact, he said we would. See number 2 for reference. 4) If you really want God to be "fair", then he needs to wipe us out the moment we all sin. So basically, when we're like 2 years old. The fact that people die--"the wages of sin is death"--is part of the world being fallen, but also, even if someone dies at 20 years old, that's still 20 years of grace and mercy on God's part. Because we shouldn't be allowed to live one second after willfully sinning, yet here we stand. What mercy.
If God is hands off, then no one would be saved, either. Because God is who regenerates you. We don't regenerate ourselves. So if God is really hands off, then we're all going to hell. But, that's not what the Bible says.
So in conclusion, really think about the logical fallacy that you're creating.
All I need do is look to the history of the Holocaust and the millions of Jews, JWs, Gypsies, homosexuals, political dissidents who died, often with prayers on their lips and not once did God so much as lift a finger to help those poor people. I get it already: God does not intervene.
Prayers are not answered. Some people die from diseases and a few get better and it has nothing to do with whether they are prayed on.
If there is a God the evidence is overwhelming God does not interfere in the course of this world and if this is contrary to what the Bible says then Bible is wrong, too. While we are at it a non interfering God does not pick one special people and does not write books.
"that's pretty fucked up" -LOL
Really, Revelife? Profanity now? Might as well be datingish.
@NightCometh@xanga - I'm far more disgusted at the attitude shown by that camp counselor toward a scared kid with a sick mom. I'd probably be cursing him out too.
OP: I think God is probably pretty hands off.
@Logomachy@xanga - If you wanted to do something bad and God intervened to stop you, you'd be the first to call him a mindless meddler.
God cannot intervene without violating our free will. If he did that we would no longer be human.
So I suggest you first find out what it is to be human before you set about passing judgement on God.
even if God does intervene, i would like to know how He chooses which people to help.
"Do you believe God is hands-off or a puppeteer?"
http://mtngirlsouth.xanga.com/762762553/god-allows-too-much-bad/Neither. I have seen Him miraculously intervene too many times to think He is "Hands off". And I have seen Him not too many times to think He is "a puppeteer". I don't see why such a complex question should have only two possible answers either. This is how I feel about it:
@Logomachy@xanga - Well, I guess the multi-faceted, scrutinized, empirical testimony of the apostles to the resurrection of Christ is just something to be ignored, I guess. P
@flapper_femme_fatale@xanga - I doubt that you really want to know.
As a non believer, i always feel a bit intrusive responding to revelife posts. But this touches on a subject i've been wanting to get off my chest for awhile- the principle of falsifiability. Falsifiability is the prism thru which i judge most truth claims. As such, it's a fundamental reason why i hold the beliefs that i do. And yet, most Christians are unfamiliar with it. What it means in a nutshell is this- The value of evidence correlates with the possibility that a different conclusion could have been reached.
Karl Popper and falsifiability
The problem with prayer is that any time it doesn't work, Christians always have an explanation for why it doesn't work. According to them, nothing can ever discredit prayer, even in principle. And if it's impossible to obtain evidence that something doesn't work, then it's also impossible to obtain evidence that it does work... according to the principle of falsifiability.
Prayer youtube video
The only part of the video linked above that's relevant to my point is the ending where he compares praying to a god to praying to a jug of milk. You can just skip ahead to that part. I think it really demonstrates my point, albeit in a slightly condescending way perhaps (no ill will intended).
I am a bipolar person, and I hate it when others come up with reasons for my illness. "God uses you." "You were meant to be like that." Or, when fundamentalists ignore the diagnosis and proclaim satan's hold over me. Butt out, judgmental miscreants. How about this one. Stuff just happens during the conception stage, and God doesn't like it anymore than you do. How about finding a support group that understands what your mother is living, rather than looking for religious reasons for her existence? How about learning ways to be supportive rather than finding ways to cure it, because, it ain't a going to be cured in your life time, and it's such a disservice to those who are ill to go around proclaiming you have some magical power to heal them. Not only is it a disservice, but it's offensive.
@lydialynn2012@momaroo - Thank you so much for your comment. I enjoyed reading it because I was you 25 years ago. As a young Southern Baptist seminary student, had I read what I posted above, I would have made exactly the same arguments you made and would have likely quoted the same passage. It's not that I don't understand it, it's that I no longer buy all of it. I would never try to dissuade from you your beliefs, but my journey has taken me to a much different place. In regard to salvation I'm now a Universalist and when it comes to the authority of scripture I stopped believing in inerrancy and infallibility a long time ago. So while I deeply respect your arguments they don't hold any validity for me because we aren't looking at the questions from the same set of ground rules. Once you step outside the paradigm of the belief system I used to share with you the arguments that @Logomachy@xanga, zoetherat@xanga, and Pollypinks@xanga seem much more rational and logical. I will say this: I have no way of knowing how old you are, or what life has dealt you along the way, but the day may come when something happens to you or someone you love that isn't quite so easy to wrap up with nice little theological bow. That may have already happened and you have held tight to your beliefs. if that is the case, I applaud you, unless of course you think that since I no longer share all of your beliefs that I'm no longer a Christian. That would piss me off (my most sincere apology to NightCometh@xanga for using the word "piss".)
@zoetherat@xanga - It's a non sequiter to conclude that because prayer can't be falsified, therefore God doesn't answer prayer. When someone prays and it's answered, to "them", that is evidence. It's all a matter of one's perspective. To an unbeliever as yourself, you believe all the answered prayers are coincidences. To the person praying, it's God answering.
@Pollypinks@xanga - You may or may not ever be healed, but I believe God can and does heal people. I agree with you that people should not judge you or your situation and make ignorant statements to you, even though their intent may be good.
How is your "theology" going to work out - all of these people who have hated God all of their lives with all that is in them suddenly finding themselves with their archenemy for all eternity?
You are definitely wise in your own eyes and your vision skewed by your lack of wisdom in dealing with the realities of life.
Everyone dies. That is just how it is.
@soccerdadforlife@xanga - lolz
@zoetherat@xanga - Belief in God is simple. All you need to do is apply reason to the problem of whether or not exists. So there is no need for any sophisticated philosophical pretzelizing of simple ideas in order to get them to come out the way you want.
Belief in atheism on the other hand takes 100% faith, so there is zero need for any kind of reasoning.If you applied the same skepticism to atheism that you apply to the existence of God the plight of the atheist becomes clear.
I actually agree with many of the sentiments of your post. At times, it seems to me the idea that God is involved with EVERYONES life seems absurd (as well as the very notion of free will at that).
However, I don't believe God (if He exists) is the antithesis of love. By definition that almost cannot be true. Of course, I get what you're saying as I have the same "feelings". The thing is, although God loves, He will is ultimately to bring glory to Himself (or you might say "love Himself"). And while God may love humanity in the general sense, it's almost absurd (to me) to think He loves EVERYONE on an individual level. (It seems paradoxical and logically inconsistent to think that God loves the each and every individual that will suffer through eternal damnation, simply because they lacked faith, ...faith which only God Himself can grant.) God loves His people, which collectively bring glory and honor to God.
I don't think this makes God a "sick bastard". Simply that God is God and its naive to think we can really comprehend His will with any degree of certainty. God by definition is love and good and just , etc. But people like to think they (as humans, and individually) are somehow the center of the universe.
If I ever do come to believe or have faith in God, I can't "put God in a box"...and I would not have such a rigid narrow view of God ...that He is some dude in the sky that will make my life awesome. If anything, the Christian life is extremely extremely hard (may be filled with love, joy, peace, hope, etc....but still pretty dang difficult....filled with trials and suffering). I would simply have to have faith in God...and submit to His ultimate plan. And realize that that plan doesn't necessarily involve me living in a 5 bedroom house on the beach and driving a BMW 6 series....or my father being miraculously healed of dealing with many severe and painful health issues for the past 15 years.
@musterion99@xanga"When someone prays and it's answered, to "them", that is evidence. It's all a matter of one's perspective."
I try to arrive at my beliefs as objectively as possible. To do that, I identify the criteria by which we arrive at beliefs in general, and then I see which specific beliefs that criteria supports. If we want to be objective and consistent in the beliefs we arrive at, then this is the way we ought to do it. You make it sound like belief in prayer is completely subjective and i disagree with that. As a general rule, we use falsifiability to judge claims. And if we choose not to do so in this one particular instance, then I don't think we're being consistent.
"It's a non sequiter to conclude that because prayer can't be falsified, therefore God doesn't answer prayer."
That's not exactly what i'm saying. I'm saying that if prayer can't be falsified, there's no evidence that it's true. It could still technically be true, but there's no reason to *believe* it's true... because that's not consistent with how we arrive at beliefs.
@zoetherat@xanga - dude, you can apply the principle of falsifiability to the rez- besides, falsifiability isn't the only means of attaining certainty- I got plenty of experimentalists physicists friends who agree
@zoetherat@xanga - Why do you think that falsifiability means anything? Popper is on the wane. Any theory can be amended to account for new "falsifying" data. It happens all the time.
Certainly, the efficacy of prayer can be tested. There are journal articles about it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer#Studies_on_the_efficacy_of_prayer
@OmegaMNSR@xanga - As someone trained in physics who performed a leading edge experiment for my master's thesis, I can say that if someone can produce technology from experiments, that such ability to produce technology is powerfully persuasive and worthy of acceptance.