Friday, 11 May 2012
-
A Call for a Return to Peace in the Church
Before writing this, I want to be clear that I have been part of churches that are militaristic and support what the military does and the wars, as well as Christians serving in the military. So in other words, I have seen and thought on both sides of the issue. I would like to call the church to "return" to promoting peace and to abandon the things associated with the military. This does not mean that we "shun" or do not associate with the people who are currently involved in the military and churches that have come to a conclusion that certain wars and even Christians serving in the military.
That said, I want to us to take a look at the early church writings of some of the earliest Christians. I have found a site that has posted many of these writings of the early church.
Letter to Diognetus, A.D. 80 - 200 Christians … love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. They are poor, yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonored, and yet in their very dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; they are insulted, and repay the insult with honor; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life. They are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred. (ch. 5)
According to this statement we can learn a few things. First, Christians were persecuted in the early church. They were killed for there beliefs. So many of their aspects were "odd" to the people of the world. For one thing they had little money yet they become very rich by their faith in Jesus. They lack the things of the world, yet the have all they need. People dishonor them, yet they become glorified. People speak evil of them, yet they are justified.
But ultimately the one thing I want to focus on with this statement is that they are hated persecuted by the Jews as well as the Greeks, yet those who are persecuting them can find no reason for their hatred. So it is clear that the early church was hated by the world. Even Jesus said in the Gospels that "the world will hate you because of me."
Despite this, though, even the book of Acts records high numbers of converts being converted such as in Acts 2:41 were there were 3000 that became new believers of Christ in one day. I would wager that the early church could have fought back if they wanted to. They at the very least had the numbers -- yet they did not. Now lets look at another quote. This one is from an early church Martyr named Justin:
Justin Martyr, c. A.D. 150 "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" [Is. 2:3]. And that this did come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem men went out into the world, twelve in number and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking; but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God. Now we who used to murder one another do not only refrain from making war upon our enemies, but also, that we may not lie nor deceive our examiners, willingly die confessing Christ. For that saying, "The tongue has sworn but the mind is unsworn" [a justification for lying used in Justin's time], might be imitated by us in this matter. But if the soldiers enrolled by you, who have taken the military oath, prefer their allegiance to their own life, parents, country, and all kindred, though you can offer them nothing incorruptible, it would be truly ridiculous if we, who earnestly long for incorruption, should not endure all things in order to obtain what we desire from him who is able to grant it. (First Apology 39)Justin believed that the early church was a fulfillment of this passage he quoted in Isaiah 2:3. In the second paragraph, Justin is referring to the disciples who after Jesus had worked through the cross had sent the disciples out to teach people about God. The culture of the world then had people how had many enemies. For example the Jews were enemies with just about all the cultures: the Romans, the Greeks, the Gentiles. The Romans did not like the Jews. The Gentiles had issues with the Jews. The list could go on but I hope you get the idea.
However, when people began to believe the word of God, people who were enemies were then laying down their weapons and were instead praising God and embracing each other. Not to say there were not problms and even the book of Acts does record some of these in Acts 15. However those in service would abandon their oath and their service. They knew they belonged to a "new" kingdom. One that Jesus was bringing in that even John saw in Revelation 7:9 where all peoples of the world gathered. Let's look at another quote by Justin:
We who were filled with war, mutual slaughter, and every wickedness have each, through the whole earth, changed our warlike weapons—our swords into ploughshares and our spears into implements of tillage. In their place, we cultivate godliness, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father himself through the One who was crucified. (Dialogue with Trypho 110)Again, the people who once were fighting and used weapons, or as I would call it "the way of the world" now abandoned there spears and swords and embraced each other.
Clement of Alexandria, c. A.D. 190 For we are not to delineate the faces of idols, we who are prohibited to cleave to them; nor a sword, nor a bow, since we follow peace. (The Instructor III:11)
Tertullian, c. A.D. 210 The Christian does no harm even to his foe. (Apology 46)Two more very quotes that verify how the early church functioned. I have often heard a very good quote. Granted the first few times I heard it with my former beliefs I mocked it -- however now I embrace it: "When God said to love our enemies, I don't think He meant to kill them." Perhaps it is a "cheesy" line, but I think it is true. We are to love our enemies. I know I have heard that there will be war regardless. I agree with those who say that. In fact, I would be worried if there was not now as even Jesus said "there will be wars and rumors of wars and nation shall rise against nation." However, it seems like some people in church seem to think that we can have justified wars or even that we can help to do our part.
I would challenge this view. I would say if the world is going to go to war, then let it. However, Christians I believe should not get involved other then the loving of the people that are under attack and persecution and the people in the military. In fact some of the most wounded people can be some that come out of military service. They may or may not have physical problems... however many of them have deep wounds that need healed and they needs to be set free from the horrors of war. This is what I believe to be the church's mission in regards to war and those serving. A Christian should hate to see death and war brings death:
Now let's look at a more modern book on the subject of Peace. For this I am going to use A Culture of Peace: "God's Vision for the Church" by Alan Krieder, Eleanor Krieder, and Paulus Widjaja I think the first couple chapters says well some points I want to make.
The authors suggest that we bring about a church as a culture of peace (9) which may be odd as in our day and age we probably would not think of a church with the word "peace." As we have seen from my earlier quotes and even this book affirms that the church was about "peace:"
The early church were noticed as a culture of peace such as an early martyr named Justin: “We… delighted in war, in the slaughter of one another, and every kind of iniquity; [but we] have in every part of the world converted our weapons of war into implements of peace- our swords into ploughshares, our spears into farmer’s tools- and we cultivate piety, justice, brotherly charity, faith and hope, which we derive from the Father through the crucified savior (9)
The authors go on to say that the early church had broken down walls that had separated them such as cultures and tribes and languages. The people began to share a life together. The authors also discuss Acts chapter 2:
Pentecost in Acts 2:9-11 transformed the chaos that Babel created into a culture of peace and harmony. In Babel God divided people into groups separated from each other; whereas Pentecost united people previously separated into one body. There were some tensions though such as the Hellenists and the Hebrews in many churches (acts 6:1-6)(12)
Back in the book of Genesis, God created a confused language that separated the world and created divisions among the people. Today we can still see this. However, due to the power of God and the work of Christ on the cross we can see that God had begun to bring all people back together. Currently we wait to the day that this will be fulfilled as John saw it in Revelation 7:9. When Pentecost happened God had begun to heal and reconcile people together. "Race" was beginning to die, and now we are going to be united as one race as Paul said, "Neither Greek nor Jew, Male or Female."
According to the authors of A Culture of Peace, God had begun a work of reconciliation with Abraham. This was now being fulfilled with Christ. The early Christians knew this to be true (12) and Paul even affirmed this in Ephesians 4:3 that the result of the power of the cross had brought the Jew's biggest enemy: the Gentiles together and the result was Jews and Gentiles praising God and living together in peace (12-13).
The authors of A Culture of Peace discuss how even one of those closest to Jesus had questions when God first brought some of the "enemies"" of the Jews before him in Acts 10:
Peter gets the message of Christ’s peace but finds out that it come at work in the wrong person: the enemy. This became central throughout the New Testament. This was important to early Christians, because with gratitude and puzzlement, were trying to come to terms with what God had done. Through the work of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit despite differences in races and backgrounds making them into one body. Today we are often different then the early Christians as we have often forget (or do not know) the origins as the church of Jesus Christ, are in miraculous reconciliation (18-19).
It is very clear that how the Spirit of God works then. Culture and race did not matter. Rather what mattered was Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit was merging people into one body. Even in the New Testament the word peace was used so much. The people even referred to the Message of Jesus as the Gospel of Peace. Paul uses "peace" terms in many of his writings such as Romans 5:1 and 10. God has called us to peace 1 Cor. 7:15. Finally two of the New Testament writers call us to seek peace with everyone in Hebrews 12:14 and 1 Peter 3:11. Lastly Paul even starts most of the letters he wrote with something like "grace and peace to you.(19)"
There is so much more I could say on this issue. However, I hope I have made a good point by now. I am asking that churches would encourage peace. Stop suggesting that we join the military and aid in the war efforts. I find it odd that many churches are looking for ways to stand out in the world, so that they are different. However, what I personally see is many churches going on in the ways of the world.
What would happen if all churches (or even a large number) began to discourage military service? I would wager at this point (at least in the USA), they would not have enough people to carry on the endless wars that we are now involved with. Then the USA would be faced with two choices: Stop the wars and bring home the troops or institute a draft. Then what would happen when the numbers of Christians who refused to go in the draft? There would be persecution. I want to be clear that I would hate on one hand to be persecuted or to see it. However, if such a thing happened the church would grow even more.
So in closing, I am encouraging the church and the people of the world to lay down our arms and embrace Jesus and the Gospel of peace. Let us do what the martyr Justin said and trade our "spears" or "guns" for plough-shears and love the people of the world. Let us again return to a church and a culture of peace.
Do you agree that the culture of the church has changed from what it was when it first began? Is Christianity less peaceful today because, in some instances, it shows support for military involvement and war? What would it look like if the church began to promote peaceful living?
RecommendRelated Posts
Post a Comment
- Back to revelife's Revelife Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in revelife's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)
About the Author
-
- From: esfes@xanga
- Name: Eric
- About Me: I am 28 years old. Not sure what else to say.
Stats: This Week All Time Posts: 0 8 Views: 0 5481 Comments: 0 77 View all posts by esfes@xanga
Comments (21)
Great blog posting Eric! I'm in agreement with your position that Christians should stand apart when the trumpets of war are blown. Unfortunately, very few Christians stand apart as non-violent witnesses of the one they are to represent: Jesus Christ. As Gandhi pointed out, "The only people on earth who do not see Christ and his teachings as non-violent are Christians."
You make mention of the book A Culture of Peace. I'd like to recommend another book, which looks at the same issue in light of the last 10 years, specifically, in the context of America's so-called "War on Terror." The book is titled "Blood Guilt: Christian Responses to America's War on Terror."
It essentially captures your spirit on this topic, but does so in much greater detail.
I am strictly a non-jesus' believer however having discussed this matter with those ' claiming to be a genuine christian ' (of which there are NONE! according their own preferred Strory book) the fact remains that participation in warfare is a strict NO NO! according to their very own Story book -
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh 4 (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds) (2 Cor. 10:3-4) ASV story bookHowever my 50 year experience successfully busting religions and Cults like trinitarianism, has proved that many claiming to follow their preferred Story book bible, choose to ignore that quote and literally participate in or at least condone carnal warfare?
@Composer - I would say that a great deal of Anabaptist churches do follow the nonviolent and peace making ideas. Some of these include (but are not limited to) Mennonites, Amish, Quaker. Originally nearly all denominations when they broke away from Catholic were pacifists including Baptists, Brethren etc. I will admit my first denomination Pentecostalism started out pacifists but later changed (I think around World War 2). While I have left the Pentecostal church (not saying that there not pacifist Pentecostal churches) I still consider myself one as it is more of a "movement" not a set building. Currently I attend a Mennonite church mostly for their pacifism beliefs. That said if I have an issue with them it would be that I often think that they have become so enamored with "peace" that they have forgotten about the only war we are to be in which is the war against Satan through Jesus and they have gotten laxed in this area in spiritual warfare.
@Peterson - I will have to look into that book. Thanks.
@esfes@xanga - I would love to discuss two things
1. Is there a Statement of Faith by these Mennonites I can examine?
2. The nonesense about a literal naughty Satan spirit-fallen heavenly angel being?
e.g. My Young's Literal Translation / YLT & EMPHATIC. Diaglott NT Interlinear never mentions the term ' Satan ' in any of its Story book text!
Cheers!
@Composer - First, if you do not mind could you
stop referring to the Bible as a "story" book. I know it can be hard to
read what people mean when they send messages and if I am wrong about
this then I will say "sorry" in advance. But to me it seems like you are
trying to be offensive in that regard. Again sorry if I am
misunderstanding you on this.
About the statement of faith each individual Mennonite Church may have a
different one and some variations to it but here is mine:
So what do Mennonites believe today? Because Mennonites are centered on Christ, and our faith is biblically grounded, we have much in common with all Christians who are biblically based: God is all-loving and all-powerful; Jesus Christ is the full embodiment of God's Word and is Lord of all; the Holy Spirit is God's transforming presence within us; and we are rescued from our own self-destruction by letting go of our self-centeredness and control, putting our lives in God's hands, and trusting the living Jesus Christ to live through us.
Because Mennonites are more relational than philosophical, and more practical than speculative, we tend to keep our beliefs simple and basic. Unlike some Christian denominations, Mennonites have very few "official" positions. Beliefs and practices are rarely codified. What keeps Mennonites together is a strong sense of community, faith history, and shared values. As a result, Mennonites in North America share a number of beliefs which, taken together, make us distinctive as a Christian group. The following seven areas help define what makes North American Mennonites distinctive today:
1. Church. Mennonites agree that the church is a visible body of voluntary believers who have turned their lives over to Jesus Christ. As we worship together, teach each other, and support each other, we make visible and real a part of the kingdom of God here on earth.
2. Salvation. Mennonites agree with other Christian traditions that we are saved by grace through faith. But we go on to say that true faith must lead to repentance and the beginning of a transformed life. Salvation has not become a full reality until our genuine faith expresses itself in a Christ-centered life. Mennonites tend to agree that salvation is both a personal relationship with God, and a communal relationship with each other. We experience salvation by living it out together.
3. Baptism and Communion. For Mennonites, these are not sacraments that transmit salvation, but are symbols through which we express and strengthen our faith. Baptism is a symbol of repentance for sin and commitment to the lordship of Jesus Christ in one's own life. As such, it is only for conscious believers--those old enough to make their own commitment. Communion symbolizes our continuing faith in and commitment to Jesus Christ.
4. Lifestyle. Mennonites believe that Christians are meant to be in the world but not of the world. In other words, we should live a lifestyle that challenges the self-centeredness and materialism of our society. For many Mennonites this takes the form of living as simply as possible in order to free up resources for those in desperate need, and making choices that are kind to the environment and future generations.
5. Nonviolence. Perhaps more than any other belief, Mennonites are known for their strong stance against the use of violence in any form or for any reason. Because of this, most Mennonites continue to refuse military service or occupations that require the threat of force. The vast majority of Mennonites in North America believe that the cross is an example for believers to follow. We are to overcome evil with self-giving love and positive action. We believe this is the clear teaching of Jesus, and the resurrection of Jesus is our promise that the way of the cross ultimately triumphs over all other powers.
6. Biblical Authority. For Mennonites, the Bible is the highest authority in matters of faith and practice. The New Testament in particular provides the model for living out the Christian life. Jesus Christ's teachings and example are meant to be followed daily and radically in all areas of life, public and private. Following the pattern of the church in the Book of Acts, individual understandings and interpretations of the Bible are tested in the gathered congregation.
7. Service and Evangelism. Although Mennonites are engaging in more dialogue and outreach with their neighbors, service to others is still what comes most naturally to Mennonites. Indeed, Mennonites often sum up the content of the Christian life with the word "service." As a result, evangelism rarely stands alone. When it is done, it is usually integrated into some form of concrete service. This reflects the Mennonite concern for the whole person and the conviction that salvation is about every area of life.
Now as far as Satan, he is mentioned in the New Testament. Of course Satan (I believe is a re translated word) and originally the name is/was Lucifer. I will admit that some have argued that the term "Satan" is not a mere demon or one being but an office of demons/ beings. I will admit I do not hold to this and believe there was one being known as Satan who rebelled against God and then took a third of the angels with him.
I know this stuff is real as even this year I came to Christ and have had a thousands of demons cast out of me and there has been a lot of changes. I will give you two sites that I keep if you want to look at them: www.slideshare.net/esfes1025 (these are just personal slideshows that I have made) and also this sight that shows my spiritual journey after leaving a christian cult (although I do not upload on here much anymore): http://esfes1025.wordpress.com/2009/06/
I will admit I am open to talking with you but I am not going to argue/debate the exsistance of God. Anything I would say anyone could find some reason to argue with. All I can say is that I was once enslaved by Satan and now Christ has set me free. I was once a very angry and bitter person but have now been healed. That is all I can give you.
@Composer - esfes wrote: First, if you do not mind could you
stop referring to the Bible as a "story" book.
Me: That's ALL it is! The legitimate evidence a single word of it came from a Supernatural god remains a constant zero!
esfes wrote: I know it can be hard to read what people mean when they send messages and if I am wrong about this then I will say "sorry" in advance. But to me it seems like you are
trying to be offensive in that regard. Again sorry if I am misunderstanding you on this.
Me: No you are not wrong about my statement, I know what I said is fact!
esfes wrote:About the statement of faith each individual Mennonite Church may have a
different one and some variations to it but here is mine:
Me: So there is no ' one accord ' even with Mennonites!
esfes wrote: So what do Mennonites believe today? Because Mennonites are centered on Christ, and our faith is biblically grounded, we have much in common with all Christians who are biblically based:
Me: Ok so you base your beliefs on a Story book, what else?
esfes wrote: God is all-loving and all-powerful;
Me: Could you provide ' what evidence your particular imagined god shows its love? '.
esfes wrote: Jesus Christ is the full embodiment of God's Word and is Lord of all; the Holy Spirit is God's transforming presence within us; and we are rescued from our own self-destruction by letting go of our self-centeredness and control, putting our lives in God's hands, and trusting the living Jesus Christ to live through us.
Me: Apart from your preferred Story book and Cult propaganda and emotional pleas, let's see some actual literal & legitimate evidence of a Supernatural god being involved in anything?
esfes wrote:Because Mennonites are more relational than philosophical, and more practical than speculative, we tend to keep our beliefs simple and basic. Unlike some Christian denominations, Mennonites have very few "official" positions. Beliefs and practices are rarely codified. What keeps Mennonites together is a strong sense of community, faith history, and shared values. As a result, Mennonites in North America share a number of beliefs which, taken together, make us distinctive as a Christian group. The following seven areas help define what makes North American Mennonites distinctive today:
1. Church. Mennonites agree that the church is a visible body of voluntary believers who have turned their lives over to Jesus Christ. As we worship together, teach each other, and support each other, we make visible and real a part of the kingdom of God here on earth.
2. Salvation. Mennonites agree with other Christian traditions that we are saved by grace through faith. But we go on to say that true faith must lead to repentance and the beginning of a transformed life. Salvation has not become a full reality until our genuine faith expresses itself in a Christ-centered life. Mennonites tend to agree that salvation is both a personal relationship with God, and a communal relationship with each other. We experience salvation by living it out together.
3. Baptism and Communion. For Mennonites, these are not sacraments that transmit salvation, but are symbols through which we express and strengthen our faith. Baptism is a symbol of repentance for sin and commitment to the lordship of Jesus Christ in one's own life. As such, it is only for conscious believers--those old enough to make their own commitment. Communion symbolizes our continuing faith in and commitment to Jesus Christ.
4. Lifestyle. Mennonites believe that Christians are meant to be in the world but not of the world. In other words, we should live a lifestyle that challenges the self-centeredness and materialism of our society. For many Mennonites this takes the form of living as simply as possible in order to free up resources for those in desperate need, and making choices that are kind to the environment and future generations.
5. Nonviolence. Perhaps more than any other belief, Mennonites are known for their strong stance against the use of violence in any form or for any reason. Because of this, most Mennonites continue to refuse military service or occupations that require the threat of force. The vast majority of Mennonites in North America believe that the cross is an example for believers to follow. We are to overcome evil with self-giving love and positive action. We believe this is the clear teaching of Jesus, and the resurrection of Jesus is our promise that the way of the cross ultimately triumphs over all other powers.
6. Biblical Authority. For Mennonites, the Bible is the highest authority in matters of faith and practice. The New Testament in particular provides the model for living out the Christian life. Jesus Christ's teachings and example are meant to be followed daily and radically in all areas of life, public and private. Following the pattern of the church in the Book of Acts, individual understandings and interpretations of the Bible are tested in the gathered congregation.
7. Service and Evangelism. Although Mennonites are engaging in more dialogue and outreach with their neighbors, service to others is still what comes most naturally to Mennonites. Indeed, Mennonites often sum up the content of the Christian life with the word "service." As a result, evangelism rarely stands alone. When it is done, it is usually integrated into some form of concrete service. This reflects the Mennonite concern for the whole person and the conviction that salvation is about every area of life.
Me: Ok thanks for the run-down!
We really need to examine your claims in detail and step-by step so perhaps we could start with -
Now as far as Satan, he is mentioned in the New Testament.
Me: My YLT & E. Diaglott make NO mention of the term Satan in their text so to them the Term doesn't exist?
How do you explain that?
Do you even know what the Hebrew Term ' Satan ' actually means?
esfes wrote: Of course Satan (I believe is a re translated word) and originally the name is/was Lucifer.
Me: Really? Are you aware that this jesus is Lucifer?
The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Story book bible jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for jesus in Revelation 22:16.
esfes wrote:I will admit that some have argued that the term "Satan" is not a mere demon or one being but an office of demons/ beings. I will admit I do not hold to this and believe there was one being known as Satan who rebelled against God and then took a third of the angels with him.
Me: As I said, two bible versions I have make NO mention of any term Satan so where did it go?
esfes wrote: I know this stuff is real as even this year I came to Christ and have had a thousands of demons cast out of me and there has been a lot of changes. I will give you two sites that I keep if you want to look at them: www.slideshare.net/esfes1025 (these are just personal slideshows that I have made) and also this sight that shows my spiritual journey after leaving a christian cult (although I do not upload on here much anymore): http://esfes1025.wordpress.com/2009/06/
I will admit I am open to talking with you but I am not going to argue/debate the exsistance of God. Anything I would say anyone could find some reason to argue with. All I can say is that I was once enslaved by Satan and now Christ has set me free. I was once a very angry and bitter person but have now been healed. That is all I can give you.
Me: Ok thanks for the explanations however even your own Story book commands those that at least ' claim to believe what it says ' that YOU and Cults like yours must ' prove your ministry ' so saying you won't argue about is is your BS excuses. (cf. 1 Thess. 5:21 & 2 Tim. 4:5 KJV Story book
You strike me as another person duped by a Cult mentality however I have been successfully refuting religions and Cults like yours for over 50 years and still going!
I am also benevolent and prepared to go through your claims one by one to help you free yourself from your current brain-washed mentality.
This takes time to eradicate the BS others have been feeding you so far!
@Composer - Again, I am not going to argue with you. But I find it interesting that you call my belief in Christ as a "cult" when nearly all you said was from the media and from what the governments of the world (both of which use brain washing by the way) to promote your agenda.
I do ask you this: You are demanding evidence of a "god" in a literal form. I will provide you this, when you can provide me pictures of all areas or our planet, (including the miles upon miles that we have never been able to get to under the "crust" layer of our earth, and also every inch of the entire universe (providing that there is only one universe. I want to see the whole universe(s) in its entirety that shows that there is no "god" out there. I want to see close up pictures of all the planets in the universe etc.
I will admit I am going with a well known argument that people use against God (I at one time was an Atheist myself so I am familiar with many of them and so far you have not thrown an argument at me I have not heard). The Atheist wants to throw out the idea of a god because one does not see him/her. Yet we have not seen all the splendor of the universe so maybe all that does not exists?
Again, not going to argue so I do await for you to supply me with pictures of the whole universe then I will give you my next response. Take care and I pray that the spirits binding your hearts would be loosened and the scales that the enemy has placed over your eyes would fall off and you would see God and find the love of Jesus.
Peace to you!
@esfes@xanga - IF as claimed this Story book god ' is a spirit ' then it obvioiusly can't show up in any pictures!
Hence your request is irrational and absurd whilst mine is most rational and simplistic!
YOU and your Cult makes extraordinary claims about supernatural beings, hence that requires extraordinary proofs of the Supernatural, but even simple ones would do for starters?
You have nothing but your Cults particular brand of Snake-Oil whilst I remain vindicated!
By the way you also make an off the cuff remark about ' the enemy? '
What are you talking about and who told you about this?
Much much better luck next times!
@Composer - thank you for your input on this.
Even your preferred Story book bible confirms that ' the greatest enemy ' is people like YOU and YOUR Cult!
You obviously don't want to hear the Truth and instead you prefer to live in your own little world of fantasy!
@Composer - My "storybook" also tells me to avoid piety squabbles and arguments (Titus 3:9 and 2 Timothy 2:2). I am open to a dialogue and discussion with you, but I will not do so when all you can do is insult and slam my view. That is not what a discussion is. A discussion is where both parties listen and try to understand the other person's thought and ideas and view points. That does not mean that we will both come to the same agreement. I am by no means going to try and "persuade" you to my belief in my "storybook." However, from what I have seen you have gone out of your way to try and insult me, insult my belief in God, and Jesus, and my "storybook." I have done my best to be respectful towards you, but you do not seem to return the favor. All you seem to want to do is to convince me that I am believing in a "fairy tale" and how "stupid" I am to believe this. Have I put you down for your views? If I have, then I must have not realized it and therefore I am sorry that I did this. But I will say that some of the greatest minds have at least believed in the same God that I do (that does not mean they were Christian but they at least believed). Some of them have included people like Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein.
So in conclusion if you cannot do a discussion and dialogue without the whole point to convince me that the Bible is not true and you cannot do so without insulting me then I ask that this be the end of our conversation. There are millions of people on our world wide web who you can try and do this with and many of them who believe in my "story book" that would jump all over the challenges you throw at them. However, perhaps being a former Atheist, I know that in the dialogue that we are having that chances are I will never convince you of my belief... and I also know that there is nothing that you will say that will change my point of view.
Again, I pray peace for you!
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”
Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954; from Albert Einstein the Human Side, Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, eds., Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981, p. 43.
Your preferred Story book clearly commands YOU to ' prove all things ' and ' make full proof of your ministry! '
So start with proving your preferred Story book is the words of a Supernatural god given to some men?
I shan't hold my breath but my being benevolent also I extend to you every opportunity to provide the legitimate evidence you are commanded to provide (apparent;y?)
Off ya go!
BTW: Story book jesus also tells you that it will assist you IF you are a genuine believer, so you have little in the way of excuses for your imminent failures! cf. -
Matthew 21:22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have
received it, and it will be yours
Matthew 18:20
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for,
it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come
together in my name, there am I with them."
How much time does your jesus need to convince me after your appeal for help?
@Composer - I think he is already trying to convince you... you just do not want to see. If Jesus and His Father's universe and creation which screams and praises the presence of God is not enough to convince you, then what hope do I have someone who is an imperfect being to prove to you this.
Here is the thing with Science... it is always changing and is always being "redone." For example science years ago thought when people were sick they had to drain the blood from people. Now we know that if we do that the person may have a chance of dying. They changed it. At one time science thought the world stayed stationary, while the sun and all the universe revolved around it. Now we know the earth rotates our sun. Again science changes.
"Where we there in the foundations of the world?" No we were not only God was. Science was not. they cannot even come to an agreement on how the universe began or how the earth was created as there are numerous theories.
So even if I was to pull some kind of "scientific" evidence that you seem to want. In a week or a year or whenver something will come out to disprove it... and then whatever that is will be disproven or changed or even go back to the proof that I just pulled out.
Peace!
@esfes@xanga - It's all quite simple for any genuine Story book bible believer!
All they need to do if they are a genuine believer is to ask their imaginary friend to do the convincing for them and believe it will happen as they asked it to be done for them, NOT by them as you ineptly purport! -
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. (John 14:13-14) KJV story book
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (John 15:7) KJV story book
So hop to it and cease your typical BS excuses for your failures!
@Composer - I gave you my answer and my reasons why I believe and that was not good enough for you. No matter what I say you will argue. You have closed your heart and just are on your quest to prove that God is not there.
You are obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer!
You claim to have the advantage over me that you have a jesus that answers the requests of ANY genuine believer -
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." (Matt. 21:22) KJV Story book
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. (Mark 11:24) KJV Story book
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." (Matt. 18:20) KJV Story book
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. (John 14:12-14) KJV Story book. Thus proving that ANY believer shall do ' greater miracles than Story book jesus ' and proves also this promise IS NOT made only or restricted to the Story book Apostles! & If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. (John 15:7) English Standard Version (ESV) Story book
Obviously your requests & prayers & appeals to your jesus to convince me of its literal existence ALL FAILED and proves a number of things including -
1. YOU are a fraud and illegitimate believer!
2. Your imaginary friend is just that!
3. Your preferred Story book is full of lies dupes like you have fallen for!
You, your preferred Story book and your jesus have zero credibility still!
Next!
@Composer - You can say what you want but since this has gone on long enough... and the topic you bring up is not even what the post is about for that matter. Come on, why pick mine and me when there are topics out there that are on what you are looking for and I am sure there are people who would argue with you. I do not argue nor do I prove. You asked me why I believe and that was not good enough. I have answered your question.
Are you some kind of prick? A prick who goes onto these sites and talks big, but I bet if we were to have this conversation in person you would probably puss out wouldn't you? I know because I was that kind of person who talked big on these blogs once upon a time as an atheist and then the minute that it would be in person I would puss out myself.
If you want to talk about the original message I welcome more of your comments... but until I see something that has to do with what I originally posted then I am not responding anymore.
@esfes@xanga - Name calling is right up the alley of losers like YOU!
There is ample proofs in your preferred Story book that the biblical jesus was a bastard at birth and grew to be a narcissistic violent murderer against those that wouldn't willingly yield to its lies!
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [ them ] before me. (Luke 19:27) KJV Story book
&
With flaming fire he will mete out11 punishment on those who do not know God12 and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 1:9 They13 will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, (2 Thess. 1:8,9) NET Story book
Much better luck next times!
@Composer - Question, what does peace in the church(es) and you trying to have someone prove the existence of God have in common?
@esfes@xanga - ALL religions including your Cult are founded upon lies i.e. the Literal existence of ANY Supernatural god(s) is 100% a man made concept and nothing more!
Hence whatever ANY ' church ' or Cult like yours wants to do in the name of those god(s) is 100% BS founded upon that 100% man made and spurious ideological concept.