If I was on the fence about why there was a reason to come back and start blogging my usual tirades against religion, I was given the final push over the edge. Earlier this week, I had a friend attempt suicide due to untreated depression issues. It was tremendously sad, but it and the nearly 50 stitches accompanying it were a wake up call she dearly needed. But what happened yesterday is on a whole extra level of just fucking wrong.
A friend from high school, we'll just call him D, realized that after years of trying his best to deny who, at his very core, he truly was, it was time to accept reality and help the people near and dear to him to accept the same. The problem is, everyone near and dear to D was strongly tied to a particularly conservative group within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the Mormons. When D told them that he is, and always has been, attracted to other men, his his friends ostracized him. His church shunned him. His family disowned him. And when D realized that there was nobody in his life who cared more about his well-being than in the immutable writings of books written hundreds or thousands of years ago, D tried to kill himself.
I've lost friends to suicide. Far too many. For a middle class white boy from the suburbs of Minnesota, I've lost far too many people to their poor choices, be it drugs, violence, drunk driving, abusive boyfriends or self-destruction. I think suicide is an extremely selfish act. But being that I also have a history of health issues, both physical and mental, I don't judge people who make this choice. Especially not D. When I feel extremely depressed, I have a giant net of people who are there to catch me, to keep me from plummeting into that dark abyss. D didn't have that. In his time of need, every single person who he counted on to be there for him turned their back. His brother, his mother, his father, his grandparents, his friends from college, his friends from work, his pastor, his congregation -- none of them cared more for the life of a sweet, gentle man than for the words of hate passed down through their religion. In the end, a neighbor D knew only in passing saved his life as he dangled by his neck.
If it weren't for religion, the closest thing we'd have to an anti-gay movement is "it's just icky", and you can guarantee that would never get support in the polls. Only organized religion can take an entire person's quarter-century history of good deeds, kind words and well wishing and reduce it down to "he's an evil queer." And only organized religion can have the power to try to legislate this holy mandate to hate into law.
Somebody once asked me what the proper term for homosexual people is: is it gays, homos, or queers?
You know what I like to call homosexual people? People.
How do you respond? Has the Christian church hurt someone you know? Have you ever had a friend try to commit suicide? What can Christians learn from these stories?
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Comments (78)
@wakeupgen@xanga - what point? like i said, he lost me after that first sentence; if he had a point to make he should have just made it, then again, this particular blogger lost me many many posts ago.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - What I am saying is true, this priest does teach intolerance against homosexuality. I myself sat through one of his masses, and was horrified with the hate spewing from his mouth. Perhaps he never got the memo about tolerance. Irregardless, the Catholic church also teaches:
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an
exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It
has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different
cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself
on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave
depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are
intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law.
They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a
genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be
approved.
I would argue that statements such as the one above ^ would give a platform for intolerance against homosexuals. In the eyes of the people I mentioned (including the priest), homosexuality is a sin and should not be tolerated, this may extend to the individuals themselves.
@wakeupgen@xanga - Hatred and bigotry are not intellectually valid ways to make a point about human rights and human dignity.
It's an oxymoron.
Therefore this post is simply what is indicated in its title and spelled out clearly in its prose: a work of hate aimed at all people of faith in general and Christians and Mormons in particular.
Btw, the noose dangling from the Cross of Jesus Christ is another expression of hatred in the form of a graphic.
It's like the KKK hate symbol of the burning Cross.
There is really no difference between the hate expressed in this post toward people of faith and the hate toward black people expressed by the Ku Klux Klan.
@escape_rabbit@xanga - You are correct, the Catholic Church, like all other mainstream Christian denominations does not approve of homosexual copulation or the homosexual lifestyle.
Disapproval does not mean maltreatment or withdrawal of brotherly love, however.
The Church advocates ministry to prisoners for example even though it does not approve of their crimes.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - I can see where you are coming from, but the issue here that I see is calling homosexual acts as a sin in itself is intolerant. I could probably argue why I don't believe it to be sinful, and I am sure you could argue your side. I rather not as I can see us just reaching an impasse, and I am too tired for that....Although the stories brought up are anecdotal, I can see how classifying homosexuality as an intolerable sin may psychologically lead people to extend it to the individuals. As I said, such an intolerance may give a person the platform to do so. It is a slippery slope. Although, I am curious as to what your explanation may be for this phenomenon (not trying to be intrusive, just general curiosity if you have the insight).
@escape_rabbit@xanga - In any religious or philosophical system that promotes virtue, there will be standards.
And standards necessarily means that undesirable behavior will be discriminated against.
Judeo-Christian morality is very clear and the standards of virtue very high.
A person is free to accept the teachings or not.
But what is being done here is to demonize a religion simply because you disagree with its standards. That is exactly what you are criticizing Christians of doing to homosexuals.
To make a proper argument you must make a claim that shows the virtues of homosexuality and then make a case to support that claim.
Engaging in the very behavior you are condemning is not a rational way of approaching the issue.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - You are not focusing on the core of the argument. Yes, I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. As I stated, I will not argue with you on this topic as I see we will just reach an impasse. To focus on the issue I was not discussing in order to reduce my actual topic is not a rational way to approach an argument (think straw man logical fallacy). Putting that to the side, I am analyzing the behavior from the anecdote in which a behavior (homosexuality) is seen as intolerable (the standard) and extends in the minds of those who disagree with the act to punish the individuals. In their minds, if the act was not taught as intolerable, then it could possibly be argued that they may have no reason to extend punishment to the individuals. Do the ends justify the means? I know it could be argued that not all religious people will behave in such a manner (and I am sure they don't). I am only probing what was brought up in the anecdote presented by Godless, since now you have engaged me in an argument.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - To put it simply, I am asking you if the ends justify the means. I am more curious about your opinion than anything.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - And for the record, I believe it is in the rights of a religion to teach whatever they wish to teach as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others. The question then is, are they infringing on the rights of homosexuals?
I believe it is a terrible fate when anyone commits suicide. Because of religion or not we must look at who is really at fault...
@escape_rabbit@xanga - Christianity teaches moral standards that each person must strive for of their own free will.
This is why a person must not be coerced or abused because of personal condition or circumstance. If a parent or clergy does that, then they are in error.
@escape_rabbit@xanga - Since I am wicked at heart, my morality comes from Christianity. I believe as the Church does that good cannot be accomplished by committing evil.
The ends do not justify the means.@Reality_Rules@twitter - Hi Hector. God bless you.
I was raised Catholic and the truth is that no matter what denomination you are from, there will be the people who distort the beliefs to suit themselves. They won't research to see how the church or God TRUELY feels on the topic, they are just weak frightened people who don't want to accept certain Truths. (for example, my very religious father used biblical refrences to teach his daughters that our only duty on earth is to sexually satisfy men)
As I thought I said before, people turn their backs on eachother in the name of God, even though the truth of the matter is that God and their christian faith has called them to embrace eachother.
So perhaps it's NOT christianity's fault in and of itself. Let's be honest. Catholic, mormon, liberal, conservatice, even an athiest could find "justification" to turn his back on a brother in need. I suppose the REAL issue is lack of love, in SOME people in EVERY community.
However, there are still priests spouting fire and brimstone against gays, and although it is NOT turely catholic teaching, we are taught that the priest is the embodiment of Christ (druing the Mass).... Do you seriously doubt that he hasn't lead truely good, loving catholic's astray with his false teachings? For we are but sheep, and we trust our priests and pastors with our souls. Do you truely doubt that this misrepresentation has caused God's children to turn their backs on one another?
The key problem is misrepresentation..... but most christian denominations have been a breeding ground for this hypocrisy, especially since most christians are taught to have "blind faith".
perhaps the author is merely trying to bash religion in this post.... would the mature christian response be "you don't like us, so you're wrong in your accusations!!"
Or shoud we get over our differences and say, "I'm sorry that this has happened to your friend, let's work together to eliminate this horrible behavior, both inside AND outside of organized religions (because the truth is, it's happening everywhere)"
I read the bible, and there are three things that I find to be essential in living in the preachings of Jesus.
Faith, love, and hope. If the guy confessed the truth to his family, whether they are Christians or not and chose to shun him, how can you really say they had the complete love of Jesus in their hearts?
I believe in the preachings of the bible, because it is my choice. Although I may not agree to a guy liking another guy, that won't mean that I will shun them for their choice. Who am I to call myself a Christian if I cannot fully love even my own family who have not done harm to another.
-sigh- Yet here we go again. A blog that was meant to ask how & WHY most conservative groups of organized religion look down upon homosexuals. NOT bashing the religions, but asking an honest question of them. As well as how do we fix this? Why is it so acceptable to look down upon & freeze out those who do not fit the 'socially acceptable' norm written in thousands of year old Bibles? Instead of giving out love, compassion etc, even if we don't agree with the fact they are gay/lesbian/bi/trans/etc why do we turn our backs on them? THAT, to me anyways was what this blog was all about. Why & how do we fix this? Can we fix this? etc etc.
It wasn't some atheists middle-finger at any conservative organized religion, though obviously these people took it as such, probably because they are so blinded by their religion they completely missed the main & IMPORTANT message of this blog. Instead half of you have put this author down, said that his stories of a friend committing suicide, because of their religion & the fact they couldn't even have the decency to still see them as a HUMAN, when they came out was fabricated & used solely to needle & bash your religion. GROW UP. What this poor person has suffered with the loss of his friends & their sexual orientation due to how many organized religions see it, happens A LOT. & many times it's swept under the rug. KUDOS to the author for bringing this out into the light, despite the backlash, animosity & misunderstandings that have ensued.
I am not sure personally, that there will ever be a way that conservative anti-gay religions can ever co-exist.. :[ It pains me to say, but by just looking at a lot of comments on here, from people who blatantly misunderstood the entire point of this blog to the ones who refused to understand it wasn't a personal attack on them OR their religion; it's clear to me that this issue may never have a good fix.
My sympathizes to you, the author, on the loss of your friend because everyone turned their back on him. What a tragedy that could have & SHOULD have been prevented - despite his religious upbringing.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - "Second, faith in Jesus Christ is 100% good. Therefore, no evil can come of it. "
What on Earth? Christians do sinful things all the time. Even Paul talked about how he kept sinning even though it was in his mind to do God's will. Christians are sinners, and to claim that nothing bad can come from Christians is straight up ignorant.
That said, what his Christian community did was not very Christian. And too many Christians do not behave with enough charity or love when they see a brother or sister struggling. What is not said enough is that the only unforgivable sin is unbelief. It is not homosexuality. You can be gay and Christian. All Christians continually need to seek Jesus for forgiveness of their sins, no matter what their sexual orientation. I feel that homosexuality has been given this especially terrible sin status as a result of our own fallen hearts. Most people never face same-sex desires, so most people can point at gay people's sin and say "That's not even tempting to me, it must be truly bad", and not risk being hypocritical. But they forget that hate and unforgiveness are also sins.
"If it weren't for religion, the closest thing we'd have to an anti-gay movement is "it's just icky", and you can guarantee that would never get support in the polls. Only organized religion can take an entire person's quarter-century history of good deeds, kind words and well wishing and reduce it down to "he's an evil queer." And only organized religion can have the power to try to legislate this holy mandate to hate into law."
This is a sweeping statement, with little room for nuance.A look at something like the Wikipedia entry on religion and homosexuality provides a more balanced view.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality
What happened to the young man is regrettable. The discomfort his peers feel at his avowed sexual preference could just as easily be identified with the discomfort people feel around someone terminally ill, or divorced, or addicted.
Ostracism is not necessarily gay-bashing…unless one widens the definition. Ostracism happens in all societies, for all kinds of reasons. Ostracism is most def not in the same boat as violent intimidation.
Attitudes at large are shifting. For some, it can’t happen fast enough. For others, it’s happening too fast. True liberation for each person, whatever their moral and ethical POV, consists of being true to their principles, and seeking out those with whom they feel a common bond. Anything else smacks of political correctness, or thought control.
@thinby30@xanga - Christianity is not the source of sin. The human condition is the source of sin. There is nothing in religions like atheism that provides positive influence of human nature.
Christianity on the hand, provides deep and fertile soil in which to grow the human soul.
This post blames Christianity in general and Mormon in general for the evil that men do. That is simply unjust and unwarranted.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-mormon-responds-to-human-rights-campaign-petition-same-sex-attraction This is kinda old... but they do say that there should be no unkindness shown towards homosexuals and that they believe in equal rights being given to homosexuals as individuals (as in workplace discrimination).
Christians are nothing special in this world. They are people. Sure, they are supposed to be good, but they are still people and they still make bad choices and sometimes they don't have the willpower, knowlege, or ability to stop themselves from taking certain actions.
It is incredibly sad that this boy felt isolated and that no one was there for him in a time of need. Christianity isn't to blame for his death, though. The people in his life failed him. Hopefully he can develop a support system that is healthier than his previous one.
@dustysojourner@xanga - Russia is NOT an "atheistic" power! Neither is China - that is all propaganda from Christians desperate to find credibility in their belief that the USA is a Christian country. I have PERSONALLY been to a large Catholic church in downtown Beijing. Atheism is a not a religion - it is only a loose description of an idea that there is no God. There are no ATHEIST governments - not ATHEIST churches - nor ATHEIST dogma or ceremonies.
And if you think this is a "christian nation" and that is somehow connected to our economic success then you should go back and reexamine the roots of our government in what some of the founders though: "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination".-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiograph"I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians".-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")@Captric@xanga - I live in China. It is a professed Atheist nation- its ruling class enforce and require that anyone in the CCP denounce any religious ties. They have a "church" (the 3-self) that is under their control and is severely limited in what it is allowed to say and practice.
Sorry, but you're not winning that one. I live here. And Russia, as well, is professed atheist in its government as far as my knowledge goes.
That doesn't mean there are NO believers, but they are saturated atheists. Meaning that atheism is the predominant viewpoint within general society and the ruling class.
I do, however, agree with you completely in the implication that America is not a Christian nation. That much we do agree on!
After reading the first page of comments I want to say I'm sorry for the loss of a friend Krisko. I'm sorry that a community that was supposed to be love was such a big part of someone taking their life. That's not right, just, or how things ought to be. I'm also sorry that these comments haven't been as productive as they could be and that some have been outright damaging. Thankfully, there are Christians out here IRL who are working hard to love those in the LGBTIQ community, even if we disagree with aspects of their lifestyle, and doing what we can to have healthy dialogues about how we can love each other better.
My nephew has struggled with his homosexuality because of this society. It kills me to see him hurt. I let him know I love him all the time. He knows I don't agree with some of the ways he wants to live out/express those attractions but he knows and sees that I love him far more. For that I'm very thankful.
@dustysojourner@xanga - well I have l lived in China as well. My wife is Chinese and is a graduate student at Brown University in Providence RI. Her sister is here visiting for a month. Neither of them have ever heard of this church. We Google searched it and according to the picture and description of the church it is in another province from Beijing. And apparently according to the description - the government TORE down the church we found in the article.
As I stated - Atheism is NOT a belief system - it is quite the opposite. I may be a professed atheist but my wife gives it NO thought at all and her sister is the same. It is a silly argument in her view because all religious thoughts are personal.My experience is that China tolerates other religions as long as they do not try to take over the government. The idea from religious types is that atheism is somehow tied to murder and lack of morals is absolutely FALSE ...... after all Pol Pot was a Buddhist and both Hitler and Stalin were Christians!!