This is an argument that I have always found to be lacking in evidence.
Numerous times I have been told by fellow Christians (often teetotalers) that the wine that Jesus used couldn't have been or wouldn't have been alcoholic. I have heard explanations that "new wine" refers to unfermented grape juice, or that Jews of Jesus's day used some kind of mixture made from dried-and-powdered grapes and water (so... grape Kool-Aid?), or that Jesus was a Nazarite and couldn't drink alcohol (but if that was the case, he couldn't have grape juice either). My favorite was a simple subjective "Well, he wouldn't have wanted people to get drunk, so when he turned water to wine of COURSE it meant grape juice!"
Hrm.
Better writers than I have
written on the tendency to squeeze Jesus into fitting our categories. I wonder if that's equally applicable here. I have nothing against teetotalers, and support many in their abstinence, especially if they're in recovery--however, I do not think we can make this case that biblical wine was grape juice.
Several Scriptures warn against the loss of control that comes with getting drunk, particularly when you're a leader (Proverbs 31:4, Ephesians 5:15, 1 Timothy 3:3). But I would argue that no Scripture, and especially no statement of Jesus, would indicate that drinking alcohol at all is across-the-board bad for everyone.¹ Some statements, quite the opposite (Matthew 11:19). Wine in the Bible is a symbol of joy, an sign of celebration.
And so, in honor of my first successful batch of homebrew being bottled (28 bottles of Orange-Clove Mead, 16% alcohol by volume), I'm opening this as a debate.
Convince me. Bring your Scripture, your historical primary sources, your deductive and inductive reasoning. Indicate to me why I should believe that when the Bible says "wine," it means anything other than the fermented product of grape.
Discuss!
¹ -- Except as a matter of individual conscience. See Romans 14:1-7, 1 Corinthians 8:7-13.
What do you think? Did Jesus drink real wine or grape juice? Where in scripture or historical reference do you find evidence to base your decision on?
True 
Comments (67)
Yes, Jesus was a Nazarene, dedicated to God. He wore His hair in the Nazarene style. There is no DIRECT evidence Jesus drank alcoholic beverages. HOWEVER, it certainly appears that Jesus allowed his disciples to drink alcoholic wine. At Cana wedding feast, when Jesus replenished the wine supply that His apostles certainly help deplete, he made better wine. Wedding feasts served alcoholic wine. Jesus did complain that His critics were prejudicially putting Him in a no-win situation: (paraphrase: you complained about John and his disciples not eating or drinking, but with Me you complain that we come eating and drinking.) drinking would reference alcoholic wine. I thought that Jesus was accused of being a drunkard...and didn't deny it, but I cannot seem to find that reference in Scripture at the moment, so I may have recalled it wrong. However, the Jesus that I know and love may have taken some wine, but only in minimal quantities. He had so much responsibility to save the world, Jesus could not relax a minute. His life was a life of hardship and suffering. Thank you Jesus. So sorry for my sins that made you do what you had to do. Thanks again. Oh, about Seder dinner(aka, the Last Supper). The wine is alcoholic also, I am almost certain.
It cracks me up that speculations are being made about if the wine was alcoholic or not and how drunk Jesus got.
It's like someone asked, "What can we waste time debating about and pretending we know today?"
@mortimerZilch@xanga - your evidence being....a book that was put together by men who decided which books were most appropriate according to the times. Yes, great evidence.
Jesus most likely drank wine. His first miracle was to turn water into wine.
And I really don't understand why some of these hyper-Puritan Christians insist there is something wrong with drinking when clearly Jesus himself likely did it and certainly condoned it.
Just be sensible - drink in moderation - don't get drunk. Being a teetotaler makes no sense to me, unless you have a health issue.
This is one of those times I am glad I was raised Catholic.
@destinationmoderation@xanga - oh sorry. some people enjoy using their minds. but then again they HAVE MINDS TO USE, unlike you. Please, wake up and try using that massive object I see pictured on your shoulders. golly.
@mortimerZilch@xanga - I spend my time in school, learning about things that can actually be studied and tested. What a waste of time it would be to sit around pondering things that I could never know. It's a pity that you feel the need to resort to insulting me for using common sense. Methinks you might be a tad bit sensitive.
not much can be done with you. you are of the saddest sort. "there are none so blind as those who will not see." Now go back to your "studies."
@lucylwrites@xanga - im a teetotaler; for many reasons. one, but far from the most profound is that i cannot stand the taste of alcohol. another is that i have no respect for what i have seen come of alcohol consumption and know very few people who practice moderation. i have had several friends killed in drunk driving accidents, some were in the vehicle, part of the drinking, others innocent victims.
while i can buy the argument that alcohol is not inherently evil todays culture is nothing short of abusive of it, you cant have good party unless there is booze, if you are upset about something drink up, if there is something to celebrate then celebrate with alcohol. especially in america Christians are weak and follow the crowd desperate for acceptance. i dont see anything wrong in such situations with calling for total abstinance; where the darkness looms the light must shine all the brighter. at the same time i would not confuse calling for total abstinance with demanding it, nor would i condemn those who consume in good conscience. again however i would call to mind the climate in which we live and remind them not to let their liberty become a stumbling block to others.
i read this article before and didnt comment on it. to be honest it sounds to me more like someone trying to justify their drinking than an honest dialogue, but then i have heard this kind of thing again and again and it has always ended up the same way; once the arguments run out it comes down to license vs legalism.
@iones_island@xanga - I'm very sorry for your losses. Drunk driving is a terrible thing. I think I overstated before, being a teetotaler is of course a valid personal decision and just because I would never be one myself I should not impose my own standards on others.
Just like I would not want alcohol abstinence imposed on me. Or to be told that to have a drink is somehow "un-Christian" when clearly that's not true.
That's too bad that you don't know any moderate drinkers. Most of my friends are very moderate (or light) drinkers, my father is a teetotaler (he doesn't like the taste of alcohol either), and I never get drunk - I usually have at most 3 drinks. I also don't have much respect for people who cannot control their drinking and I don't stay close to people who don't.
@Logomachy@xanga - there's no fool like an old fool. you just haven't gotten it have you?
well, unless you change here at the end of your life, you aren't EVER going to get it. Good Luck you stubborn old goat.JESUS ADMITTED DRINKING ALCOHOLIC WINE. Luke 7: 33-35. end of this discussion.
I'm gonna go with the Kool-Aid hypothesis
As to those who type in Arabic it looks like squiggly lines to most of us who don't speak it. If you have something to say try English. We don't need any more trolls here. Thank you!
@DistrictofCalamity - @DistrictofCalamity - Says who? Were you alive when Jesus? The answer is know as matter of factt there is a verse...in Proverbs that apparently defend s the use of alcohol by poor people as a way to kill their pain well no medication was available to them and it promotes the use of pain killing medication ala marijuana any thing that relievies their physical pain...and the wine in that Jesus almost is
almost cerainly was of the non-alcoholic variety and there are a lot of Christians I know that believe that the sponge that was on that sponge...a lot of well educated Christians that know therir have developed a rather convincing theory that it might well have been hyssop a very powerful panin killer that was widely available in Israel because it grows in a climat similiar to what Israel' would have been around the time of Jesus. That particular might have been the same centurion whose daughters was saved earlier in the gospels by Jesus and might have taken mercy on tThe Lord in exactly His greatest moment of physical pain and humiliation. That possibility is very real since I have heard it several times from the Christian who also degrees in archaealogy and World History. l
i'm not sure about whether or not the bible states alcohol is completely bad, but i do know that back in the day people drank wine because it was safer to drink than the water because the water had a tendency to be dirty or bad for them. the wine was better because the alcohol killed bacteria. i don't know how far back people realized this but i'm sure in biblical times people were able to notice a difference whether they knew the exact reason or not.
Ephesians 5:18- Do not get drunk on wine which leads to debauchery, instead be filled with the spirit.
I think it was real wine, not just grape juice. As I heard a preacher say before, he doesn't know nay grape juice that would make someone want to take their clothes off and run around.
If wine were merely grape juice there wouldn't be the problem of getting drunk.
I personally think drinking is okay in moderation, not drinking to the point of drunkenness. I also think if you are a Christian and decide to drink you should take into account who you are with. I wouldn't drink with someone if it would ruin my witness to them or if it would cause them to stumble, like if they were a recovering alcoholic.
It's Wine. Wine is essentially grape juice that has been fermented.
why are people dumb?
@mortimerZilch@xanga - Jesus flat out says in scripture that he "ate and drank" as opposed to adhering to the strict, Jewish dietary regimen.
If people read holy scripture and determine that words don't actually say what they clearly mean (like "wine" actually means wine, not grape juice), why then no written material can ever mean what the original author intended.
Like a piece of modern art, the meaning will be in the eye of the beholder. The significance is that scripture will then mean all things to all people and not mean what God, himself, intends to say to all people.
Such thinking relegates the Bible to the ancient fiction section of the book store.
@Tallman History is a useful tool but not necessarily dispositive. You quoted from unnamed archeologists and World Historians that you favor, so it's funny that you question someone else using the historical method.
Wine has fermentation hence it is alcoholic. It may be low strength table wine or watered down, but it is what it is. Grapes were a seasonal crop in an arid region without modern refrigeration, so juicing was unlikely. The idea of drying the raisins, pulverizing them and making them into a tee-toddling drink is a modern construct, or else there would be allusions within scripture and contemporary literature.
The hyssop being used as a pain killer would have needed a liquid vehicle for transmission on a sponge. I doubt that they had time to get "grape juice". Wine was commonly consumed so go figure (but it probably was watered down). Remember water ought to be purified to be potable and it was not as easy as going to the tap.Following the Talmudic law was precise. Faithful Jews could not replace the Passover Lamb with steak according to their personal predilections. So if the Seder proscribes wine, it is folly to think that tee-toddlers used grape juice because it was close enough. This is crucial in obeying the 614 mitzahs.
@PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - very cool + correct reply. you are a reasonable human being ! ...I found were Jesus admitted to drinking wine...posted above somewhere...
He turned the water into wine; he most likely drank it, as did most people of his day.
If you chose to abstain from alcohol, that can be an admirable personal choice, but don't try to displace your own decision on Jesus' ministry.
Wine means wine.
haha ive always wondered about that as well. many people i know are no alcohol and they seem to think it as evil or possessing evil. but i think it depends on the person and what they do with it.
@Doubledb@xanga - Don't you just love Jesus? He's so cool. 2000 years after his life on earth, we're still arguing about stuff he did and said and yet he seemed so nonchalant about it all when he did it way back when.
wine in those days had actually had a lower alcoholic content... but it still was wine the romans were actually quite knowledgeable about wine and the making of wine... so if anybody from back then was talking about wine it meant wine, the idea of romans and powdered grape juice is absolutely ridiculous.