This is an argument that I have always found to be lacking in evidence.
Numerous times I have been told by fellow Christians (often teetotalers) that the wine that Jesus used couldn't have been or wouldn't have been alcoholic. I have heard explanations that "new wine" refers to unfermented grape juice, or that Jews of Jesus's day used some kind of mixture made from dried-and-powdered grapes and water (so... grape Kool-Aid?), or that Jesus was a Nazarite and couldn't drink alcohol (but if that was the case, he couldn't have grape juice either). My favorite was a simple subjective "Well, he wouldn't have wanted people to get drunk, so when he turned water to wine of COURSE it meant grape juice!"
Hrm.
Better writers than I have
written on the tendency to squeeze Jesus into fitting our categories. I wonder if that's equally applicable here. I have nothing against teetotalers, and support many in their abstinence, especially if they're in recovery--however, I do not think we can make this case that biblical wine was grape juice.
Several Scriptures warn against the loss of control that comes with getting drunk, particularly when you're a leader (Proverbs 31:4, Ephesians 5:15, 1 Timothy 3:3). But I would argue that no Scripture, and especially no statement of Jesus, would indicate that drinking alcohol at all is across-the-board bad for everyone.¹ Some statements, quite the opposite (Matthew 11:19). Wine in the Bible is a symbol of joy, an sign of celebration.
And so, in honor of my first successful batch of homebrew being bottled (28 bottles of Orange-Clove Mead, 16% alcohol by volume), I'm opening this as a debate.
Convince me. Bring your Scripture, your historical primary sources, your deductive and inductive reasoning. Indicate to me why I should believe that when the Bible says "wine," it means anything other than the fermented product of grape.
Discuss!
¹ -- Except as a matter of individual conscience. See Romans 14:1-7, 1 Corinthians 8:7-13.
What do you think? Did Jesus drink real wine or grape juice? Where in scripture or historical reference do you find evidence to base your decision on?
True 
Comments (67)
Jesus had a rowdy good time. People were probably drunk by the time the wine ran out. Usually the hosts would bring out the worst wine near the end because people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Jesus created more wine by alchemy.
I'm with you. Jesus was called a winebibber. And the sin is getting drunk, not drinking wine. You can't get drunk on grape juice. Jesus' first miracle involved saving the best wine for last.
I think he drank real wine. I just have heard from several people that the alcohol content of their wine was considerably less than ours today. I haven't looked it up myself, though. I personally am completely abstaining from alcohol, at least at this point in my life, but more because I felt led to because of my past with it. I really respect teetotalers and can see a lot of good reasons to do such, but the Bible does not condemn drinking; only getting drunk.
I have no problem if a christian drinks. I don't think the issue is drinking alcohol, as much as it is the why. Here are some reasons why I might object to a christian drinking.
Are they drinking as a way of dealing or not dealing with issues?
Are they drinking because they are addicted and don't want to stop?
Are they drinking just a little bit socially because they are desperate to fit in?
The above instances show not that it is wrong to drink alcohol, as much as the alcohol is/may be being used as a substitute for God.
Having said that I do not mind if a christian drinks for the right reason. I personally do not drink. I have a family history of several relatives both close and distant, abusing a variety of substances including alcohol. Rather than risking it and crossing a line that I do not wish to cross, I have decided not to drink at all. So, feel free to drink in my presence, because I honestly could care less. just make sure you are drinking for the right reasons.
Where did the ancient Jews get all the ice necessary to refrigerate their grape juice? Why wasn't Jesus' first miracle turning water to ice for the grape juice?
@At_Sixes_And_Sevens@xanga - I've heard that too. But you have to figure that naturally fermented wine (about 10%-17% alcohol, depending on the yeast), even when diluted one-part-wine-to-three-parts-water, will still have an alcohol content of 3%-4% (about the same as a Budweiser). I doubt they'd dilute any more than that: I dilute my grape juice to make it last longer and be less sweet, and even a 1-part-juice-to-one-part-water starts tasting really watery.
I agree! Jesus drank wine! He enjoyed wine but He did not get drunk in the palatic sense, merry yes, we can all drink a glass of wine and not get drunk - it is called moderation.
Hugs from a former Christian turned Atheist who is now not so sure she made the right decision and thinks maybe she was wrong to turn away! Prayer please :) Helen xox
In a region where drinking water was scant and needed purification, wine-making was crucial for potable beverages as zymurgy eliminates pathogens (or you know that the wine is bad). In a time and place where refrigeration was non-existent and fresh water was limited (at best), the notion of making kosher Kool-Aid with powered dried grapes is daft.
I am reminded of the witticism of a low church Protestant pastor who prayerfully decided that wine needed to be used for their communion celebration. He knew this was going to be controversial so he was braced for criticism the first week that he used wine. One grey haired church lady button holed him and said "I don't appreciate you using wine for communion." The pastor smiled as he gave his pat response "At the Last Supper, Jesus used wine too." The church lady grimaced and retorted: "Well, now I don't think much of him either."
Some peoples' theology place a primacy on abstinence. I used to have great discussions with a loved one who was a Seventh Day Adventist pastor. They encourage (but do not demand) vegetarianism, but they insist on clean meats (no pork), no shellfish, bottom feeders, or fin-less fish (e.g. butter fish). But they are adamant about no alcohol, which is foreign to a homebrewer. I had to put on kid gloves during a holiday feast when they insisted that there were would be no alcohol or meat in heaven (the New Earth) as there will be no dead things. But my interlocutors insisted that at the wedding of Cana, it could not be wine as it did not have the time to ferment. I smiled and let it go. But to me it showed the theological temptation to ward the Word to fit into one's framing or inclinations.
A non-canonical but interesting understanding of the importance of wine in the Supper of the Lamb is that the fruit of the vine changes into wine through the mystery of fermentation. That makes it grape juice plus. This foreshadows how the Orthodox and Catholics understands transubstantiation.
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@OutOfTheAshes@xanga - @At_Sixes_And_Sevens@xanga - It had to have enough alcohol content to get drunk on, otherwise it makes no sense when the bible says "be not drunk with wine".
We will never know for sure so this allows both the yes and sort of watered down yes and tea toting no crowd to make it up, make the Bible fit their particular agenda. This pretty much sums up how most Christians read the Bible. So flip a coin, roll the dice, pull an answer from a hat and then defend it against all comers and threaten the idiots who don't get it with everlasting hell.
People can be so imaginative...
The word for wine OINOS in Jesus' time, meant grape juice, fermented or unfermented.
Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
God made all things very good Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Jesus WOULD NOT here create fermented wine which the Scriptures warned against
Proverb 20:1.Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
and which would become a symbol of His blood
1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
Also the FERMENTATION PROCESS OF YEAST was used as a symbol of false doctrine
Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Check this out:
Aristotle recognized two meanings for OINOS.
He recommended grape juice (GLUKUS) because though called wine (OINOS) it does not have the effect of wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine.
An ancient Roman writing described wine as best WHEN FERMENTATION WAS REMOVED by boiling or straining. The Mishna (book of Jewish traditions) is against alcohol at weddings.
VERSE 10
WELL DRUNK
the (Greek) word cannot be shown to mean intoxication; but it may mean when they had drunk as much as they judged proper or as they desired (Albert Barnes' NT Commentary).
In the Roman society of NT times, Plutarch points out that wine is 'much more pleasant to drink' when it 'neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions' because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering. from pLUTARCH SYPOSTAC
So there is no reason to see the GOOD WINE Jesus made as anything but PURE GRAPE JUICE.
In modern English DRUNK implies intoxiction.
This was not so when the King James authorized version Scriptures were translated into English.
1 Timothy 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; verse 3 not given to wine, not vilent, not greedy fro money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous. (NKJV)
This is ridiculous...
I think Jesus - just like me - preferred Jack Daniels to wine. Prove me wrong! LOL
Drinking wine during communion used to really creep me out ---- drinking the blood and eating the flesh of a Jewish zombie! How ridiculous is that?
Looking at this another way:
In John 2:3-4 This shows us without any doubt that Mary believed that Jesus had powers beyond the ordinary. She hardly thought He would go out and pick and squash some grapes.
Jesus performs the miracle.
Notice in John 2:6 the jars used for the newly created wine were for CEREMONIAL WASHING.
The ceremonial washing was part of the Mosaic law sin is taken away by a ceremony that results in the death of an animal.
Wine, as Jesus points out at the Last Supper, represents the shedding of His blood.
Matthew 26: 27 Then he took a cup, A)'>and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, B)'>which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you D)'>in my Father’s kingdom.”
Jesus' sacrifice fulfilled the symbolism of the ceremony of the Mosaic law. His blood spares us from eternal death
In John 2:9-10 Jesus at the wedding made a choice wine.
In John 2:6 it appears that Jesus make for this wedding between 120 and 180 gallons
So the question is:
What important role did this miracle play in the work of Jesus and His disciples?
@tau_1@xanga -
Well, let me go to my Strong's and see what's up with the Greek here.
Just going with the New Testament, we have:
γλεῦκος -- "Sweet wine," which apparently was intoxicating. Used only once, in Acts 2:13 -- "They are drunk with new wine!"
οἶνος
-- Used in Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22, 15:23; Luke 1:15, 5:37-38, 7:33,
John 2, Ephesians 5:18, 1 Timothy 3:18, 5:23, Titus 2:3, Revelation
19:15. This is the word used for what Jesus turned the water into. At
first glance this looks like grape juice, because Jesus talks about not
putting new οἶνος in old wineskins. However, Paul warns that deacons
must not be given to οἶνος, and says "Be not drunk with οἶνος." Not
only that Jesus talks about how John the Baptist abstained from οἶνος,
as opposed to Jesus who came "eating and drinking" and thus was accused
of being a "winebibber." Therefore οἶνος is also used to refer to an
intoxicating drink.
πάροινος -- "Given to wine" (one word),
derived from οἶνος. Used in 1 Timothy 3:3 and Titus 1:7, in the sense
that elders and bishops cannot be given to wine.
οἰνοφλυγία
"Excess of wine" (one word), derived from οἶνος, literally something
like "wine-babbling" or "wine-bubbling." Used in 1 Peter 4:3.
All
of these Greek words are used in connection with drunkenness in one
passage or another. So if first-century wine was in some instances fermented and in some instances unfermented, the
terminology at least does not differ between the two.
Regarding Jesus at the wedding feast -- it is dangerous exegesis to say "Jesus WOULD NOT have done X." Rather, our attitude should be to see what he DID do, and to form our opinions regarding what he WOULD do from that. At the wedding of Cana, it says that he made οἶνος, and I see no compelling evidence to believe that this was anything other than exactly what it says on the tin: wine. The master of ceremonies seems to refer to it
as a drink with the potential to intoxicate, in that he tells the groom
that most people bring out the inferior wine at the end of the feast
after "men have well drunk," but that he saved the good wine for last. Regardless of the connotations of the KJV word "drunk," the Greek word for "well drunk" is μεθύω, and in almost every other use
in Scripture refers to drunkards, as in 1 Corinthians 11:21 and Acts
2:15.
The Mishnah is not against alcohol at weddings, it only states that wine used in blessings should be diluted. And this was the teaching of a single rabbi, Eliazer. "They do not say the Benediction over the wine until water has been added to it" (Berakhot 7.5). Diluted wine may still be alcoholic enough to get drunk upon.
Yes, the fermentation process of bread was symbolic of sin and false doctrine. But wine is also symbolic of joy--see its usage all throughout the Old Testament (Ecclesiastes 9, Isaiah 16, Jeremiah 48). In fact, in Isaiah, mixing wine with water was a symbol of corruption! (1:22)
I should point out that it would only have been possible to drink "grape juice" at certain times of the year--right after the harvest of the grapes. The juice would start fermenting only six hours after being pressed, and keep fermenting for the next six weeks. But my point is, any wine drunk that wasn't in the late fall (such as the wine at Passover, drunk at springtime) physically could not have been grape juice--there would have been no way of preserving non-fermented grape juice.
@tau_1@xanga - Regarding the symbolic importance of the miracle at Cana:
It represented joy. Christ's ministry, which ends with a marriage in heaven (see Revelation), began with a marriage--and he blessed the marriage with a symbol of joy. Christ often referred to himself as "the bridgegroom," especially when asked why his disciples never fasted. In the context at Cana, there is little textual evidence to support the idea that it represented his shed blood--that time had not yet come.
@Logomachy@xanga - We do know for sure for at least three reasons:
1. Because "wine" means wine, not grape juice.2. Judeo-Christianity is also informed by millenia old traditions that use wine at yearly Passover and the daily Catholic Mass.
3. Simple common since. Unless grapes were harvested all year it is impossible to have fresh grape juice available all the time.
It was wine.. there is nothing to say otherwise, except our potential uncomfortableness with Jessus drinking alchohol. but man, that is a good story top preach on, ha ha, including the fact he told his mom it wasnt his time and this appears to be the only miracles when he is "showing off"
@kosmikawaii@xanga - you got it. you can talk with me anytime you may want. I am on here almost every day.