Thursday, 26 April 2012
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How Do We Love Homosexuals? Responding to "I'm Christian, Unless You're Gay"
By Conrad MaSo in case the article hasn't reached your Facebook page yet from a friend of a friend of a friend, here it is: I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.
I read this article and one teen's response to the article tonight, and it got me thinking about what exactly is my stance on homosexuality. Obviously, I have to stick by God and say that homosexuality is most definitely a sin. Everyone in Church already knows that, and we don't have to beat it death. So the tricky part with this issue is how exactly do we deal with homosexuals outside of church? Or is that not even the best way to question it? What we should be asking is what is the best way to love homosexuals?
Some people take a hard line conservative approach that we should absolutely not legalize gay marriage in Canada. Yet in Canada, some people may take that position not really knowing what the consequences are and what it really means to this particular group of people. I'm thinking that there needs to be some sort of relational connection before we just make such a conservative stance especially when people in Church tend not to know anyone who happens to be gay.
At one point I did take a zealous conservative approach like that until God taught me more about love and what it really means. Love still means being a friend to those who are lonely and reflecting Christ as best as we can with the help of the Holy Spirit. And pardon my harsh language but there is a part of me that is deeply hurt when the Church makes unloving actions like bullying on a homosexual who has just come out of the closet.
Being Christ, does not mean beating a homosexual senseless until they commit suicide! Actually, that is rather tame. I could easily insert any number of swear words into those bolded letters. But I won't because that would devalue my opinion and also make me not think very straight.
Homosexuality may be a sin, but bullying and being overly judgmental is a sin as well. The Church knows this and we should strive to do better, and I write this post as a loving brother in the hopes that we can.
In addition, there is also another deeper issue. What is the sense of telling homosexuals to not act on their desires when a good number of them don't even know who Jesus is? Unless they already know Jesus, it is downright offensive to say, "You're a sinner," to someone who doesn't believe in Jesus yet. So with this issue, I am almost inclined to take the side of "excuse the sin, till they know Jesus."
However, with an issue like homosexuality, there are so many other things to consider that I'm not entirely certain if that is the best way to love homosexuals. I've never been close friends with one. However, what I do know is that I will try my best to be friends with that person as normal as I treat any other friend. The author of that article that went viral did touch on at least one thing well which is:
37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 22:37-39Furthermore, there's another question. I am also reminded of a Kirk Cameron interview I saw a few weeks back, and I was thinking that so many people missed a few key points. Yes, we are Christians. Yes we believe that homosexuality is a sin. The thing is, if the world decides to challenge a Christian on the topic of if their child ends up being gay, then the Christian is caught in a trap.
There's a trap in two ways. First, if the parent totally tolerates the child's homosexuality, then there is part where the parent faces a dilemma of whether he or she is sticking by their beliefs or not. It practically makes the parent look like a hypocrite. On the other end of the spectrum, if the parent outright shuns the child, that's just not being a responsible parent.
However, like I outlined in this post, there is a mediating factor. We have to ask the question of whether the child knows Jesus or not. If my child does not know Jesus and he or she ends up being homosexual, then I have no other choice but to take the path of tolerance. Coming out of the closet takes a lot of courage to begin with, and I wouldn't want my child to end up committing suicide over the lack of love from others. If my child does know Jesus, then he or she would already know what God thinks and he or she believes the same thing I do. I would try to be as loving of a father I can be to help my child overcome the struggle, because in this case we both believe that being gay is a sin, and we are both in a deep relationship with Jesus.
I think a lot of this debate stems from Christian parents fearing deeply for their kids that they won't ever get to know to Jesus. It is a scary fact for any Christian parent to think about from what I sense. At the same time, we can't reflect Christ by completely forcing Jesus on our kids. And it is an even scarier fear if a Christian parent ends up with a homosexual child. We have to lovingly teach our kids and pray for our kids. But in the end, the strongest faith comes from those who own their own faith -- not those children who've been overly forced.
Heavenly Father, I pray for those who will be reading my blog and I pray not only for my readers but for me as well to be able to surrender control to you God on my life and where it is headed and what type of children I'll be taking care of in the future. I pray this humbly in Jesus name. Amen
If you've read the article, "I'm Christian, unless you're gay," how do you respond? How can the church lovingly respond to homosexuals -- Christian or otherwise? Is it the responsibility of the church to hold accountable all homosexuals or just those who are Christians?
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Comments (54)
Why don't we just love everyone and let god judge them? I don't really see any benefit of ostracizing ANY person.
Christianity is about personal salvation and presents a world view that all people are equally precious. So it is a fundamental contradiction to throw people into a group and ask how Christians should deal with them.
"Love thy neighbor as thyself," applies to all people.
Nevertheless, in Leviticus, God states specific prohibitions against certain sexual unions: various kinds of incest, sex with animals and homosexuality.
Judeo-Christian teachings on sexuality are normative (absolute), not cultural (relative).
I'd have to say nearly all Christians I've ever known have done zero research in Biblical knowledge concerning the actual Greek and Hebrew texts concerning the wording of homosexual, and take it at face value in the English language that was translated into King James from the Vatican. Having said that, since I know of nobody who really cares to find out what they are believing is true or not, Christians love to pick on one issue, that of homosexuality, deem it a sin, and ignore all other sins in their own lives. That one seems to take the cake as far as horrid, awful, atrocious, and hideous behaviors are concerned. We don't look at ourselves, the hurtful things we may say to a gay person that may harm his very spirit, or, at any other sins we commit, because we figure they don't matter that much to God. We can do anything in church as far as positions go, even getting a pass on adultery, but boy, mention same sex relations, and everyone out there feels oh so much better that "those people." How many here would disallow their children from coming home again after outing themselves? How many here would allow their children to play with children of homosexuals? Christlike? Not killing one's spirit? I liken it to vicious behavior, while claiming to be Christian and all loving at the same time. Well, you can't have it both ways. For Conrad, read Jack Rogers. He was given the unfortunate assignment, unfortunate at the time, of picking apart the Bible concerning homosexuality, after decades of being a pastor and being wholly against anyone practicing homosexuality. What he found shocked him.
Regarding gays outside the church, that's the easier issue. We are commanded not to judge those outside the church. "Excuse the sin until they know Jesus" is exactly right. Now, It's those who are living an active gay sex life while inside the church that get tricky. From 1 Corinthians 5: "I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not
at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and
swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the
world. But
now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name
of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an
idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a
one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside."
@Pollypinks@xanga - *cough*
Getting Christians to stand on their 'high ground' and ignore that society is being turned towards debauchery is a smart move for Homosexuals and advocates of selfishness. I am speaking towards efforts to redefine marriage. Same Sex Marriage is a step in the wrong direction. Let's not fall for a bating technique. Religion should not hijack an issue where religious arguments will fail to win the day in court.
The Bible teaches both these things, "anyone who is not against us is for us" (Mark 9:40) and also "he who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30) In this there are no undecided individuals when viewed from the position of authority. We are to take a stand. Knowing the enemy is creeping forward for battle does the superior army wait inside the fortress with their children or go out?
I go out. In front of the state capital I've held a sign that read, "Gay States get Gay Foster Parents." I can easily keep religion out of it. Although a strong society has a firm religious footing, a basic desire for the common good provides enough incentive. Defending a tried and true natural social structure can't be wrong even if it does offend some people who think of themselves as progressive.
Now with all that said, what is this "how exactly do we deal with homosexuals outside of Church" thing? What's up with that? Over my many years I have worked with a number of homosexuals and never had to 'deal' with them. Certainly not with any more care than I give to dealing with females in the workplace or people with disabilities or apparent self esteem issues or obesity or whatnot. Common courtesy should prevent a person from letting fly with the fat jokes or homo jokes and feel they are putting out an effort to be nice. Pollypinks is correct in reminding us of the 1 Corinthians 5:13 approach taught in the Bible but to stand against altering a tried and true social structure is NOT against our Christian teaching. Jesus Saves!
Trolling the blog! This is so gay, I'm going to kill myself. You need, your arses' whopped; But, you probably like that too.
@FullTruthSeeker@xanga - Hi. I'm gay. I'm also a teacher, a researcher, a son, a brother, a boyfriend, a rock climber, and a runner. I volunteer about 20 hours per week with outreach activities at local high schools. I ride my bike to work because I can't afford a car. Oh, and also, I'm not your enemy.
Let me repeat the last part, because it's so important: I'm not your enemy.
I'm not a selfish person seeking to drown society in debauchery. My life goals are to move closer to my parents, find a teaching job that encourages creative curriculum design and values community and collaboration, and raise a family. Debauchery is nowhere on that list.
I'm not waging a war against you or anybody else. I'm not trying to trick anybody into letting me marry my partner and start a family so that I can then ... destroy love? Destroy society? No, after starting a family, I plan to spend a lot of time at children's museums, on camping trips, and probably also at school plays.
Why do you talk about me like I'm your enemy? Who's waging war?
Cough cough. Good to know you've never had lunch with someone who merely lives with a partner outside marriage. I do enjoy Paul. Since he proudly struts his lack of libido, there seems to be an assumption that the best thing to do would never have sex, thus negating what God told Adam and Eve.
@Conrad Ma@facebook and @PrisonerxOfxLove@xanga - I'm not a Christian, so I'm not the most Bible-literate person in the world. So I have a question for you both: Is being gay really a sin? Or is it just gay sex that is forbidden by scripture?
I ask because I think there is an important distinction between *sex* and *identity* that is often glossed over in these discussions. Being straight or gay is different from engaging in straight or gay sex. Virgins can be straight or gay. Straight and gay people can choose to be celibate, too. So to say that "being gay is a sin" is a much more powerful statement that to say that "gay sex is a sin." The former statement implies that by merely existing, gay people are sinning!
The Bible has lots of rules about straight sex, e.g., you can't have sex before marriage. But that doesn't mean that it's a sin to be straight before marriage. So is it logical to say that because the Bible prohibits gay sex, it's a sin to be gay?
My understanding is that Leviticus prohibits gay sex (in particular, sodomy), but not gay identity or even celibate gay relationships. Are there other relevant passages that I'm unaware of? Or is it the case that people are interpreting laws against sodomy as laws against identity and/or celibate relationships?
@jim_the_american@xanga - It beats me where you get the notion my use of the term 'enemy' in the sentence where I put it to use was in any way referring to homosexuals. If I were to refer to you in that way though I can tell you the term would be loaned from the Bible and in the appropriate context. I trust you are not the entity which the Bible generally targets when that term is used.
@jim_the_american@xanga - Being gay is not a sin.
Extra-marital sex is considered adultery. And since marriage is defined in Judeo-Christianity as the union between man and woman, gays are called to lives of chastity just like all unmarried people.@jim_the_american@xanga - I would say that you're very right, with one addition:
In Matthew, Jesus drew a link between lust and adultery, saying that a person who is entertaining illicit sexual fantasies is no better than one who actually acts on them. If we extend this principle to gay sex as well, I would say that it is not wrong to have a celibate homosexual orientation, but it would be wrong to indulge in homosexual fantasy. Understand that I believe there is a difference between lust and attraction, the former being positive, and the latter passive. If I walk through the grocery store and am attracted to a guy I see, I haven't done anything wrong. If I take a "second look," stare, ogle, hold onto the mental picture of the guy, begin a fantasy in my head, that's different. The attraction is instantaneous and involuntary; the lust and fantasy is voluntary. Luther said something to the effect of, "I can't stop birds from flying over my head, but I can stop them from making a nest in my hair." And I think this goes for everyone, regardless of orientation.
But with that addition, I agree with you fully. It is the action that is condemned, not the existence. In fact, I go a step further: I prefer to identify people by their actions. I don't see why a virgin should be considered either gay or straight, really--it makes it sound like they're mutually exclusive, when doesn't modern research suggest more of a spectrum? I think your sexual label should be created by what you do (er... or rather, who you do?), not merely by attraction or orientation. But that's just me--so far I haven't been able to convince the culture at large to change its terminology.
@Pollypinks@xanga - Wait, that wasn't the part I was addressing to you: I coughed to show you the link.
I agree with your post. I also think it's impossible to determine one's Christianity based on sexual orientation. You'd have to get into everybody's mind to figure that one out, but I personally believe God is the only one who knows our hearts, not a bunch of rock singers at church.
Although I could list countless prohibitions and rules and commandments found in the Bible that few if any Christians obey, I am not going to do so. I think if we are being honest we already know this is so or perhaps you doubt it because you seldom if ever read the Bible.
Anyway just like I don't demand women cover their heads in church or remain silent, just like I don't support slavery even good Christian slave owners, just like I don't see any need to beat our kids with rods or kill our sons who disobey us or kill witches or those who eat shell fish, even though all of these are found in the Bible and some claim represent what God really wanted, I also do the same with the gay and lesbian question.
I fully support same sex marriage between two consenting loving adults. Those who claim the Bible is against same sex marriage should take the time to read what the Bible teaches about marriage. Hint there are eight different Biblical responses on how to enter a Godly marriage, some of them are illegal in most Western nations.
Very good article, and thank you for expressing love to gay people outside of the church (which is desperately needed!) and you've voiced how to deal with children that believe differently from you and are unchristian very well
However, I'd like to address a serious question about gay Christians at the end of your article.
You said: "If my child does know Jesus, then he or she would already know what God thinks and he or she believes the same thing I do. I would try to be as loving of a father I can be to help my child overcome the struggle, because in this case we both believe that being gay is a sin, and we are both in a deep relationship with Jesus."
Are you assuming that your child's beliefs would be the same as your own? What if they are different than yours? Mine sure turned out different.
I am 100% a follower of Christ. I am also 100% gay. I'm also very conservative! And I am not the only conservative Christian that believes God isn't against modern homosexual relationships between two Christian men (abstaining from sex till marriage, etc - the whole nine yards).
My question is: How would you handle your child if they believe differently from youand are Christian?
Because that's where a lot of us gay Christians are stuck between a rock and a hard place. It's only if we are gay, Christian, AND celibate that we earn the right to be involved in church community, loved by Christians, and not ostracized by our families.
So honestly because of my own background, and depending on where your child's beliefs are (not just yours), they still might struggle with suicide. Just thought I'd help.
Honestly I'm really just done with the Christianity vs Homosexuality debate. If you think I'm a sinner and I'm going to hell for being gay, then so be it. That is your opinion, one I do not share. You have the right to believe anything you want.
The problem I have with the church and religion in general is when they use those opinions grounded in beliefs based on a book written over 2000 years ago to deny me rights. Marriage is not something exclusive to Christians. Atheist get married. Pagans get married. People who don't follow the big three religions get married. I don't see any churches or religious organizations advocating for those marriages to be overturned or invalidated. I'm a tax paying, law-abiding citizen of the United States of America. The United States has a constitution that in it's first lines grants its citizens the freedom OF RELIGION and freedom FROM RELIGION. When you start denying me rights granted to me by the "law of the land", that even your bible tells you must be adhered to, because of your own personal beliefs, then I have a problem.
My relationship with a man does not affect you or anyone else outside of my relationship. My desire to marry a man does not in any way, shape, or form affect you. You are still allowed to believe whatever you want about me or my marriage, but you do not under "the laws of the land" have the right to deny me my basic civil human rights.
I don't understand why this is even a subject to debate. Refuse to love someone because he/she is gay? Who are you people? Deal with your own sins and pray for forgivness, casue we are all sinners. Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
people who consider themselves "christian should actually READ the Bible. the same book says it's also a sin to eat shellfish and wear clothing of mixed fibers, and to not sacrifice animals on certain days.
the gay issue is only singled out because people have personal problems with it, and it's silly to say it has anything to do with religion.
plus, "judge not lest ye be judged", "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", etc. etc.
durr.
You have to love, because that is the way of the Lord. We aren't the ones to judge.
@OutOfTheAshes@xanga - Thanks for the clarification about lust. To address your concern about whether it's meaningful for virgins and/or celibate people to identify as gay/straight, I think the answer is yes. But issues of identity are complicated, so there may be more to the story.
@Conrad Ma@facebook - I see your "diligent skepticism" as a strength, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
I suspect that the types of sexual and/or romantic relationships in which gay people engage are just as diverse as for straight people. Unfortunately, though, I'm no expert at scripture so I can't help you identify or interpret relevant passages in the Bible; you'll need to decide for yourself what you think God's message is.
In the meantime, I don't see any reason why you can't still be an ally now that you've become Christian. Even if you come to the conclusion that gay identity is a sin, you can still support gay people. For example, by standing up against bullying in school.
Good luck on your journey for understanding! -drdf
There is an article I read a while back about the term "homosexuality"... which actually didn't exist until relatively recently. (And by relatively recently, I mean within the past 300 years or so... in comparison to passages in a Bible that was supposed to have been written well over 2000 years ago [Leviticus to be more specific].) Article HERE.
Also, there is a level of question as to whether this stuff was done by force. Up until the last few centuries, "homosexual acts" were under a category one male asserting dominance over another. Essentially, they were acts of rape... where one man forced himself on another for the sake of dominance. It was for the purpose of humiliation and shame, not out of love. THIS is the kind of "homosexual" activity that Paul is writing about in his letters to the church... NOT two men in a relationship with each other that is voluntary. In the case of being "effeminate", this would be talking about the male prostitutes in the temples who solicited payment for being on the receiving end. There is absolutely no mention at all, in the New Testament, of mutual relationships between two men or two women. The "homosexuality" that Paul writes about was almost completely about the socially acceptable Roman practice of asserting dominance with rape.
There is a VERY big difference between a man who rapes another and two men who are in a mutual relationship. The moral objection to male prostitution should be on the same grounds as that of female prostitution.
I happen to be friends with quite a few gay Christians... and no, that is not an oxymoron. Know what? None of them are these horrible, immoral people that most Christians outside of my current circles claim them to be. I know straight "Christians" with less respect for the Gospel, less love for people in general, and honestly, a whole lot less obedience to the majority of the Scriptures. They have consciences that torment them sometimes, more than some straight people I know who can so easily have one-night stands.... Some of these guys agonize over just the desire to have sex at all. I have never asked them about their activities. I have never asked them if they are celibate or if they're not. A couple of them have volunteered that information, most of them haven't. I know of several couples... I don't make assumptions about their sex lives any more so than I make assumptions about the sex lives of my straight friends... single or married, Christian or not.
But I will say this: If one of my friends started making an ass of himself, or herself, bragging about their sexual activities outside of the context of marriage or even just outside of the context of a relationship... I'd stop associating myself with that person for a while. Isn't THAT one of the things Paul was writing to the Corinthian church about? The guy who was bragging about incest with one of his relatives?
Whenever discussing any sins, there seems to be a variety of definitions of ‘love’ and ‘judge’. Until we can agree on the definitions, we are not going to agree with how to "deal" with any issue, not just homosexual ones.
Judge…
1. Let’s not forget, that biblical judging and condemning wasn’t merely making a statement.
Back then people were literally stoned to death and thrown off cliffs. If any one person claimed someone sinned and there were witnesses… the person was as good as dead, with no chance of redemption. Today's culture on the other hand (especially those who don’t want to talk about sin) has simplified it to merely making any statement. Saying that the bible lists something as a sin isn't what Jesus meant by judging. Again… saying that the bible lists something as a sin isn't what Jesus meant by judging. He is saying that we should let him determine if a committed sin is worthy of DEATH. Because redemption is at stake.
2. The bible also gives examples of when we ARE to “judge”. Yes, the bible says to only judge those inside the church and NOT those outside the church. It wouldn’t be fair to judge by rules they don’t understand or follow. YET… that doesn’t mean we are to be remain silent and not share what we know is truth. There are consequences to sin… period. Sometimes those consequences affect just the person sinning, but there are examples in the bible where entire communities or nations suffered. If Christians sit back silent on issues of sin, in the name of tolerance and do nothing in our homes, communities or legislative decisions making… make no doubt about it, the nation as a whole will suffer consequences. We want our communities and nations to be blessed by God. And God made it clear that blessing comes with obedience. No amount of argument or discussion can work
around that.
Love… yes, we are to love our neighbor. We should respect and treat everyone kindly. Someone explained it quite well: treat everyone kindly and with friendship. Be friends with EVERYONE, just be very cautious as to which of those friends gives you advise; especially spiritual advise. That is where we are to be very choosy. We also need to look at how God has asked us to love Him. He says we prove our love by obedience to His commandments. He also said that he corrects and even chastises those He loves. Therefore, if we truly love someone we will LOVINGLY correct them and not just let everything slide in the name of society’s definition of love and tolerance. If we truly love someone, we will share God’s Truth with them so that they too will be blessed.
In regards to the comment that that some sins in the old testament are no longer looked at as sin… are you sure those you listed were sins? There is a difference between “teaching and instruction” commandments about general clean and uncleanness and those commandments dealing with actual “sins”. Some needed a simple purification process while others lead to being put to death. We can’t lump them all together.
I do agree whole heartedly that it is the act of homosexual sex that is the sin. It is doubtful that the desire or temptation, BEFORE acted upon mentally or physically is a sin. Jesus too was tempted… but it wasn’t regarded as sin.
Have you ever noticed… there aren’t adultery pride events, gossiper pride events, pedophilia pride events? Even though most people at homosexual pride events aren't groping, dressing provocative and acting obnoxious, it is the videos and photos of those acting in this way that is seen most. The sooner the homosexual community quits these in-your-face events, the sooner society will quit pushing back on them with more wrath than other “sins”.
In summary… yes, love the homosexual and befriend them. Absolutely! But we are also not to be silenced about the Truth in God’s Word in the name of tolerance. We want them to be blessed too and it is God that says obedience brings blessing. On the other hand, while loving and befriending those struggling with homosexual desires, they should not advise us if they ignore God by acting out the desires and taking pride in it. And that goes for any kind of sin/sinner purposefully ignoring God, not just homosexuality.
@jim_the_american@xanga - Woo!!! I'm pan and I'm not ur enemy.
I'm too broke to do almost anything but go to school and occasionally buy a lunch, and I give about 3$ a week anonymously to charity and in the end none of it will be reported on my taxes. I want to teach middleschool and am going broke going to school. I love volunteering at GS camps. About once everyother week I spend 20$ buying food/suplies for an AA club that's going broke again I refuse to report ANY of this because I beleive americans dont pay enough in taxes. If i have a free weekend i love taking my dog to the oldfolks home because they enjoy it so and he is so well behaved with them.
I think i dont do enough but i try.
And if I go to hell thenI did the best I could. Because I cant change who I am.