Tuesday, 10 April 2012
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Christians Voting In Government Elections
By JN Hong
Recently, I voted in the New Zealand elections.
…reluctantly, I might add. My parents had to drag me to the voting booth, kicking and screaming. I don’t even think I filled out the form correctly. I only read later that you were strictly supposed to tick the box, not colour it in–I will never know if my vote was valid or not. The whole idea seems ridiculous to me, that my vote could be opposed by someone else who had no idea and choose the funniest name.
Democracy to me, is largely the ability to give the greatest illusion of power to the people, while the top tier of government stays about the same.
There are great many obstacles in my mind that don’t really match up in my mind. To summarise:
(1) I think Shane Claiborne says it best when he argues that the world we engage in is at odds with the Kingdom we live in:
“Today the logic goes something like this: ‘Calling a ruler Son of God is out of style. No one really does that nowadays. We can support a president while also worshiping Jesus as the Son of God.’ But how is this possible? For one says that we must love our enemies, and the other says we must kill them; one promotes the economics of competition, while the other admonishes the forgiveness of debts. To which do we pledge allegiance?”
Where do the two binaries interact, is there a dialectic between the two? The Bible does affirm that while we are here on this earth, we are under the leadership of this land we live in. But does voting for the leader of this country have an overlap with the Kingdom of heaven and how we engage with it? I can understand paying taxes, and obeying the law in the country. But even when Daniel was prohibited from praying, the law of God overruled the law of man. There is a hierachy, and finding the point where the two come together, I am going to contend, is not defined well enough.
(2) The second point is rather related to the first. Granted, I get past the barrier of the two Kingdoms fighting each other–if I was to vote, who would I vote for?
“What Would Jesus Do?” is an oft used phrase. While not applicable in all situations, is there a party that Jesus would vote for? I am going to argue that Jesus wasn’t a socialist, nor was He a capitalist–with those options taken away, where is there left? I’m left standing in the polling booth, and just wondering.
I am not Jesus, I don’t know whether we should save money to weather the economic crisis or to decrease the Official Cash Rate to increase small businesses. I don’t know whether God needs me to continue His will within this world, but He can work completely without me in it.
A lot of questions. I’m open to any answers.
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About the Author
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- From: llamalima@xanga
- About Me: Who am I? I am 19 year old university student, prone to stressing over about some assignment due the next day. I sometimes have time to blog mostly about Christian thoughts. In my spare time, I am also a musical connoisseur, ninja, movie junkie, and full-time hypochondriac. I may have lied about one of those, or a few.
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Comments (81)
@DanceofShadows@xanga - In this comment I will dispell your myth on ideals:
And for the record, propaganda is also based on ideals.That is a false statement. Ideals are based on truths and propaganda is based on logical fallacy.
Here are the applicable definitions:
4. Ideal: an ultimate object or aim of endeavor, especially one of highor noble character:
He refuses to compromise any of his ideals LINK
1. Propaganda: information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to
help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation,etc. LINK
It is obvious from the definition that "ideal" and "propaganda," like communism and Christianity are opposites of each other and thus have nothing in common.
So based on the simple definition of words, another of your claims is proven false.
@DanceofShadows@xanga - Lastly, I will debunk your use of definitions. Here is where you erroneously used the dictionary to support your personal definition of communism:
I went to the extra effort of looking up ideal on dictionary.com: "a conception of something in its perfection." In its perfection, and not sullied by those who would use it as a form of control, the crux of communism is just qualitative equality.Your error is demanding that a standard of perfection be applied to the definition of communism so that your argument comes out the way you want it to.
That's what's called rigging the game. You are only allowed to require standards that don't actually exist if you are arguing with yourself or with someone who doesn't know any better.
Further, it is well known from the study of political science that if "the crux of communism is just qualitative equality," then communism will have to necessarily be the most brutal murderous form of government on earth. That's because mass murder and brutality would be necessary to enforce economic equality.
Lastly, Christianity recognizes economic diversity, not economic equality.
So your claim that communism and Christianity share the same ideals is again proven false.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Read a little more! Dictionary.com is a great help, too! There is more to it if you click the previous button! There's a good chap
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Actually I was being trollish there but it seems like you're finally paying attention. Your debunking of myths is quite entertaining.
1. I did not equate Communism and Christianty. They are not two equal sides to a formula. A) Communism derived from the ideals of Marxism. I make a reference to such. And not the communist agenda as a whole. I refer simply to the ideal that members within a community are qualitatively equal. B) 1 Corinthians 12-12 and on - A metaphor Christ's servant Paul uses to illustrate the Christian ideal of qualitatively equal individuals within a community.
2." propaganda is also based on ideals" (see previous post).I did not equate ideals to propaganda. They are not the same thing; though, Propaganda uses ideals, references to perfection, to sell their idea and subsequently "help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc"
3.I didn't use historical record to base any of my arguments UNTIL the statement about the Church causing as much harm as Communism. This is not a topic you and I can have a discussion on because we define harm in different ways. I referred to indulgences because Church officials abused this theology to let greed run rampant. In my mind it was a form of control, much like communism, BUT NOT THE SAME THING - and just as bad. The Church has killed people - now another key point we might disagree on is what the Church actually is. I was using the loose definition of those who claim their actions on behalf of Christ. In my Christian perspective, death is just death and not hte end all; but turning others from Christ through the very institution that seeks to save souls from eternal damnation is a worse fate, in my opinion.
Conclusion:
I.I never equated Communism to Christianity. They are, again, not the same thing. They do share the similar ideal of a qualitative equality among members within a community.
IIWe cannot have a conclusive discussion about harm caused by either the Church or Communism.
@DanceofShadows@xanga - In order to make your last comment you had to deny everything you said previously.
I can cut and paste every single example but I will use just one to make my point.
Here is you, in your own words saying that Christianity and communism share the same ideals:
I know the connotations of communism are negative so Christians are quick to dismiss, but the ideals are the same.I have gone to great length to prove that your statement is false. You have gone to great length to deny your own words.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Learn to read. Comprehend words. Use a dictionary.
@DanceofShadows@xanga - Here is you making another demonstrably false statement:
We cannot have a conclusive discussion about harm caused by either the Church or Communism.Yes we can.
The greatest civilization in human history rose up because of Christianity: Western Civilization.
The greatest mass murders in history were committed by the communists: Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Che Guevara, Kim Il Song and his monster sons.
That is conclusive because it is factual.
Communism failed. Christianity succeeded. It's as simple and real as that.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Read, summarize, understand the flow of logic, comprehend the meaning of words. Anybody can twist a sentence or words out of context. Look up vocabulary.
For a summary of point II, see #3
@DanceofShadows@xanga - Since each one of your claims have been proven false, your claim to possessing some sort of "flow of logic" is also false.
Since you have no flow of logic, there is none to be understood.
And since each one of your disproved claims is constructed with words, you are the one who needs to acquire ability to understand words.
Lastly, whining about not being understood is a totally inadequate response to having your claims chopped to pieces.
The adequate response would be to use words in such a way as to render yourself more understandable and then use more words to address the counter claims presented to you.
Such a process is called effective argumentation. I recommend learning about it since it is certainly superior to whining.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Read, summarize, understand flow of logic. Opinion is not fact.
@DanceofShadows@xanga - Since you keep repeating the same thing over and over and over I believe it is safe to conclude that you have exhausted whatever it is you thought you brought to the discussion.
I appreciate the repeated opportunities you presented to me to absolutely annihilate the common lies and myths told about Christianity and communism.Thank you.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga -
1. Comprehend the meaning of words, understand the flow of conversation/discussion
2. Opinion is not fact.
3-5. Brush up on vocabulary. Dictionary.com is a valuable resource.
@DanceofShadows@xanga - Just a hint: @sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga = Lobornlyte.
@llamalima@xanga - You should be ashamed of yourself! I have engaged in a sincere discussion and good Christian that you are, you set about destroying my reputation.
Love thy neighbor.
Please.
It makes for actual discipleship.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You'd have to deny my accusation first. And define what accusation I did make. Lobornlyte is my favourite!
@llamalima@xanga - You are no one to be making accusations.
And if I accused you of being a male whore and then and countered your outrage with your words, "You'd have to deny my accusation first," I'm sure you'd rightly have every reason to call me a hateful fool.
Revelife isn't the place for hate. It's the place for brotherly love. And you are acting like neither brother nor lover of Christ.
If you have something to say, stick to the subject. I spent a lot of time on this post defending Christianity from common lies and rampant, ingrained ignorance.
It is scandalous for you to then bleed your hatred all over someone who is defending the Christ's continued presence on Earth.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You'd have to deny my accusation first. And define what accusation I did make. Lobornlyte is my favourite!
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You'd have to deny my accusation first. And define what accusation I did make. Lobornlyte is my favourite!
@llamalima@xanga - Here is a quote from your post:
(1) I think Shane Claiborne says it best when he argues that the world we engage in is at odds with the Kingdom we live in"It's obvious which kingdom you are in and who you really serve.
@llamalima@xanga - Has Revelife sunk so low as to use trolls as preachers of the Gospel?
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You'd have to deny my accusation first. And define what accusation I did make. Lobornlyte is my favourite!
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - U MAD?
@llamalima@xanga - I'm not mad, I'm stunned.
Such in your face hatred on Revelife from someone pretending to be a Christian takes the breath away.@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - DEY SEE ME ROLLING, DEY BE HATING.
@llamalima@xanga - Are you okay?
You seem to have gone off the deep end. I hope you get whatever it is that's ailing you figured out.