We know so little about God, but we use big words as if we didn't.
Every statement from us about Christ is bound to be an understatement -- because of verses like
Isa. 55:9. Even if we have the words right, and that is usually when we are closest to just using Scripture, we still
understate in the sense that we don't really understand the concepts we use of God.
I am not yet speaking about God, but of the words themselves. Words, in the final analysis, are pitiful instruments to tell of the wonderful truths of God -- or many other things in this life. Very often, whether in some other branch of knowledge or in theology, we use words, not to come to grips with something hard to understand, but to
make it go away. We do this with a semblance of "
having tackled the problem".
We give a name to the strange force of
electricity. We tag it and bag it with eleven letters and neatly slot it away from our consciousness. But what is this electricity, really?
Gravity?
Galaxy?
Photosynthesis?
Such knowledge is too wonderful for us.
Eternity?
I have a chart, for instance, that I have used both in teaching at church and at the school to show that we don't really fathom what is involved by glibly saying
God is infinite. The demonstration works like this: I first ask them a "stupid" question, as one of my students might have categorized it: "How many infinities are there?" They almost invariably say "one".
Then I draw an X/Y chart on the board, showing, first of all, how there is an infinite number of positive numbers from zero to infinity. This is a no-brainer. Then I draw another line from zero backwards to negative infinity. Heads start scratching here -- the more insightful ones. This, after all, is another infinite set, and we have only drawn two lines!
I can then show them that there
seems to be -- I stay away from the indicative mode at this point; I want conclusions to come from
them, or not at all -- an infinite number of sets.
We have an infinity of all odd numbers; of all even numbers; of all multiples of, say, 8, and this can go on, well, ad infinitum -- each set trailing off into its own domain of infinity. All separate yet,
so it seemed at first, equal. An infinite number of infinities!
I finally end my demonstration with putting a large circle around the whole chart, saying that this represents all that we can fathom about infinity. Then I write a large "G" in front. And a large "D" at the other end, spelling "GOD". This
spells out the truth that God is bigger than we can ever imagine.
I have since found out that my "discovery" has long been made by a mathematician of two centuries ago, George Cantor, and that there is a whole branch of math called "set theory".We say God is "infinite". But we are saying much more than we can comprehend.
How is God infinite?
Infinite in Time: Eternality. Moses said of Him (
Psalm 90:2) “From everlasting to everlasting You are God.” "Everlasting to everlasting" means Eternal.
Only God is truly eternal. Though Christians have eternal life, it is only so from this time forward, not backward. See also
Deut. 32:40; 1st Tim. 6:16.Infinite in Knowledge: Omniscient (“all-knowing”).
Psalm 139 describes this and the following two aspects of God -- omnipotent and omnipresence. Verses 1-6 refer to omniscience. Also
, Psa. 147:4-5. Everything God planned, He did from eternity past? He knows the future because His will is done in it and His wisdom and omnipotence brings it about.
Infinite in Power: Omnipotent (“all-powerful”) “El Shaddai”. This is God’s total ability to achieve His perfect will. “
Is anything too hard for God?” (
Jer. 32:17, 27)
Infinite in Space (Immensity): Omnipresent. He is everywhere.
Psalm 139:7-12. God fills every part of space with His whole Being! “Do I not fill heaven and Earth?” --
1 Kings 8:27. See also
Isa. 66:1, Jer. 23:23-24. This is not pantheism. God is everywhere, but He is not
everything. “Immensity” means not just that God is everywhere, but that He is
fully present in every place.
All of God is in the room in which you, my reading friend, are reading these words, wherever you are. Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me.
-- Psalm 139:7-10
Does this explain to you the idea of an infinite God? What questions does this raise for you that you'd like the community to help answer?
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Comments (22)
The claim that god is all-knowing contradicts the claim that humans have free will. If god was all knowing, he would have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree of knowledge. He would have known that this "original sin" would doom all of humanity to an eternity of hellfire and brimstone. Yet he created humans anyway. Therefore, humans were sentenced to hell before they were even created. Where does free will come in?
Either god is a masochist and wanted to create beings in his own image so he could watch them suffer for eternity or he did not know what would happen and is therefore, not all-knowing.
Also, even if god knows everything that has ever happened and everything that will happen, his knowledge is limited by the constraints of what has happened and what will happen. It is actually a finite quantity of information at any given time. The idea of knowledge being infinite is ridiculous even for a god.
@AtheistInfidel@xanga - As adults we know what our kids are going to do before they do it. Yet we let them do it anyway so they can learn.
Consequently, it's completely obvious that foreknowledge has absolutely nothing to do with free will.
Similarly there is no contradiction at between God's omniscience and human free will.
God revealed himself to a tribe of Bronze Age hunter gatherers nearly 2000 years before he sent his own Son to live among the descendants of that same tribe of people in what is now Palestine.
He showed us enough to get saved and enough to pursue happiness. He appealed to the simple, the wicked and the wise.But in the end, God is a mystery. And that is as it should be.
@AtheistInfidel@xanga - "The claim that god is all-knowing contradicts the claim that humans have free will."
Bingo.
We do not really have free will. At least not in the sense that is pertinent to your argument. We have the freedom to choose brown socks instead of black socks, but when it comes to actually obeying God we do not have the ability - nor even the desire - to obey, let alone actually follow through consistently.
That is why it has to be God who works in us "to will and to do" the right things.
@AtheistInfidel@xanga - Actually, to conclude that there is a contradiction between God's existence and free will, we have to assume that God is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. Omniscience by itself would not get us to the contradiction. In addition, we'd have to assume that our definitions of moral goodness are correct for the omnibenevolence criterion to help generate a contradiction.
That said, many Christians would agree with the three qualities I've mentioned and agree that our definitions of moral goodness are correct, so it's a fair point for many folks to ponder.
Now on to your next point...
"Also, even if god knows everything that has
ever happened and everything that will happen, his knowledge is limited
by the constraints of what has happened and what will happen. It is
actually a finite quantity of information at any given time. The idea of
knowledge being infinite is ridiculous even for a god."
Not so ridiculous if you consider the possibilities. Let's say that we have a god who knows what has happened and will happen. In addition, he knows everything that could possibly happen in all possible worlds. Possibilities being infinite as they are, that would get us to a god with infinite knowledge.
@AtheistInfidel@xanga - If there is no freewill and hell exists, then there is no justice or mercy.
@asterisktom@xanga - But there is nothing in your comment that connects foreknowing to free will. You have changed the subject from one of foreknowledge and free will to one of grace and free will.
Foreknowledge and grace are not the same.
That understanding can be reasoned out because human beings have a slight degree of foreknowing based on experience and the ability to extrapolate, but we have zero ability to bestow divine grace.
So God's grace is something different than his ability to know all things. Therefore, @AtheistInfidel@xanga 's assertion of a contradiction between God's omniscience and human free will is incorrect.
Everything you need to know about "God" is in these five words --- God was created in mans image.
Coming from a Universalist bent, God is, was, and will be perfect, so he is incapable of goofing up. The original sin thing was a huge goof up. God was perfect, so how could he goof up? Was it just something that happened? Was it necessary for Christ to be atoned? God made all of us, and knew exactly what was happening in our world. So why make 3/4 of us to, for Roman interpretation, burn in hell? When he was perfectly capable of having all his children with him again. I'm not saying there will be no consequences for bad behavior, I'm just saying why do we ignore universalist scripture? All of it? Luke 3:6 All mankind will see God's salvation. Mark 11:17 My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations. John 12:32 When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself. Romans 11:32 God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all men. Ah, but a few. There are many more.
@Lovegrove@xanga - That free will exists is obvious. For example, I just chose to take a piss outside in the front yard instead of inside in the toilet.
All of our technology, language, culture, possessions are all the result of choices exercised through free will.
Today after Sunday Mass I was in the Church office counting up the money from the collection. Since I am wicked at heart, I had to make a conscious choice not to steal any of the money. Instead, I scrupulously counted every penny, recorded it, and made the bank deposit.
People who say free will does not exist are somehow able to overlook the obvious.
Hell, on the other hand is a matter of divine revelation and is therefore a matter of faith, not reason.
@Captric@xanga - @sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You wrote:
"But there is nothing in your comment that
connects foreknowing to free will. You have changed the subject from one
of foreknowledge and free will to one of grace and free will.
Foreknowledge and grace are not the same."
Judging by your comment above, it seems that we have differing views of free-will. Your not stealing from the offering, which has the slightest degree of commendability (the "virtue" of not being a thief), does not touch upon what I spoke of when I referred to free-will.
Free-will - in the fullest and deepest sense - is not only a check on our outward disobedience here and there, but an ability to proactive and inwardly desire to please God with all of the heart.
The one is outward and superficial.
The other cuts to the very heart of our being.
The one is negative and backward-looking.
The other is positive and proactive.
The Psalmist David wrote that God "desires truth in the inward parts". The exact place where we cannot implant truth. This requires an ongoing supply of grace.
Christians, with this in mind, are more characterized as doers than "don't-ers".
@asterisktom@xanga - You still have said nothing that addressed @AtheistInfidel@xanga 's original assertion that God's omniscience contradicts free will.
Your reply was "bingo" and then you changed the subject without explaining your reason for agreement.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I did not bother going into detail with atheistinfidel because it would not be worth it. His mind is made up. He is - at this point, at least - impervious to the best evidence, which is God's Spirit applying His Word. To him (atheistinf.) it is all foolishness, so it isn't worth all the typing.
However I do agree with his initial statement that God's fore-knowledge would necessarily limit free-will. It would. It does. But I don't agree with his ridiculous extrapolation from that first statement.
@asterisktom@xanga - How does God's fore-knowledge necessarily limit free will?
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - If some event is absolutely known to occur in the future - whether or not the "knower" is God - the thing that is so surely anticipated must certainly come to pass.
There are several verses that speak of God's knowing the future absolutely. Yet we are still responsible for our choices or mischoices. When we are doing wrong we are acting out of our nature. And when Christians do right, even then they do not do it of their own accord but they are merely walking in the works that God had already prepared for them. This is shown in Eph. 2:10:
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in."
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga -
To quote myself: "If there is no freewill and hell exists, then there is no justice or mercy."
My comment is a neutral observation. I may have misread, but you seem to be responding as if I do not think there is freewill. In fact, I do hold that freewill exists, within certain mundane restraints.
Whether hell exists or not is a moot question.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - "How does God's fore-knowledge necessarily limit free will?"
It doesn't. knowing the result of an action by another, does not mean that the latter cannot choose to act or not. As you said previously to the effect that knowing that your child will get a pain if they touch a hot object and yet let them do it to learn a lesson, does not remove the choice that the child has.
@asterisktom@xanga - Human beings can be good or evil. If you go to tribes deep in Amazon jungles, we see both good and wickedness.
Consequently we can conclude that we are free to choose either good or evil.Also, as I pointed out in a previous comment it is possible for us, mere humans, to know what people are going to do before they do it. And that knowledge does not impinge on free will.
Even in a game of chess the players are able to assess the possible future moves of their opponents without impinging on their free will.
Consequently we can conclude that foreknowledge of events does not restrict free will.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You wrote:
"Human beings can be good or evil. If you go to tribes deep in Amazon jungles, we see both good and wickedness.Consequently we can conclude that we are free to choose either good or evil."
But your conclusion is unwarranted. The key phrase is your "we see". There is the problem. We do not see things as deeply as God sees. Consider 1 Samuel 16:7:
"Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”
The issue is not this outward act or that kind response. Amazon fathers (to paraphrase Matt. 7:11), "being evil, know how to give good gifts" to [their own Amazon] children."
This has nothing to do with the freewill I am referring to, which is also the degree of will that the Bible insists on as the acceptable, but impossible, standard. Impossible without God's gracious heart operation.
@asterisktom@xanga - We do not have to see as deeply as God to understand that man can be either good or evil.
We can look out at our world to make that determination.@Lovegrove@xanga - That is my point. If you couldn't tell by my name I'm an atheist. I believe that the Holy Bible describes your god as an evil despicable being who I wouldn't worship even if I believed he existed. He is allowed to get away with many atrocities that would make Hitler or Stalin look like Mr. Rogers because Christians claim it is all part of his ultimate plan.
@AtheistInfidel@xanga - "If there is no freewill and hell exists, then there is no justice or mercy."
Where do you get from that, that we are discussing "my" God?