We can sort through and learn who Jesus was through a few different sources. The most abundant source is of course the scripture. But it’s not by far the only source. For example, just the fact that he was Jewish tells us a lot. His family and friends probably called him Yeshua bar Yosef, which basically meant Jesus son of Joseph. He grew up mostly in the village of Nazareth, in the province of Galilee. That was the back woods of the Middle East at the time, and far from anything the Romans would call civilized.
One of the most significant things to understand about Yeshua is his life as a peasant. He is identified in the gospel of Mark as a tekton -- Greek for hand worker. He would’ve been trained to this trade by Yosef himself. They also would’ve traveled across Galilee together looking for work.
The first most apparent life lesson to the boy would’ve been the inequality of the poor. Life is not fair, and we all learn that from a young age, but in Yeshua’s time this was disproportionately the case.
He would’ve seen the Romans squeezing the people for every bit of power they could, then repaying what they got by torturing and murdering the people. He would’ve seen the priests who were meant to be the shepherds guarding and guiding God’s people, instead abusing their authority as well. And he would’ve seen frequent rebellions formed by citizens, who wanted to take that power back, but instead got a lot of innocent people killed and drove the Romans to tighten their grip.
Also, in Luke's view, Yeshua could comment authoritatively on scripture ever since he was a boy. He recites a story probably told to him by Mary, about when he was in the temple at age twelve. He was later found discussing scripture with the teachers in the temple.
What are your thoughts on the childhood of Jesus? What else do we know about his upbringing?
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Comments (76)
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - I quoted those scriptures to show that Jesus primary interest had nothing whatsoever to do with Nidan's vision of Jesus as a champion for income redistribution and social equality both of which are Marxist ideas.
Jesus was Son of God whose mission was to save man from himself and reconcile him to God the Father by paying for it with his own life.@RobertLeeRE@xanga - If you don't want your ideas questioned, don't publish them on a public forum. I have just as much a right to be here as you.
And I have just as much a right to express my views as you do. Even if you think they are bothersome.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Well I just checked his scriptures. they do seem to apply to his position. I really do not see anywhere he claims or infers jesus was a Zealot rather then a spiritual leader Messiah.
I also see nothing in his writings where he denied the dininty of Christ. can you tell me why you say this? It seems I cannot figure out why your claiming he said this.
And saying Yeshua I think might be Jesus in Hebrew. Some christians prefer that to the Greek word Jesus but I haven't had a chance to investigate further. I do not see this as a big deal though. Maybe he is Messianic Jew? Or might possibly be a sect of Christianity that these are the traditional way or what they think as being a more accurate name for Jesus. Iam thinking your overstating by saying multiculturalism run amuck. You sound too harsh with the ability to not contol yourself in my opinion.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - its not my ideas, I just think your coming across as bothering Christians and want you to let the Revelife blog flow freely with free exchange of spiritual conversations so we can all learn from each other.
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - Please stick to the issues and keep your feelings to yourself. You are making what are called ad hominem attacks (attacks against the man) instead of addressing the claims and their supporting argumentation.
If you had ever studied basic logic you would know that making ad hominem attacks characterizes irrationality.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga -
By the way. I looked up all the scriptures he quoted and they all seem to line up with his teaching. God gave you two ears and one mouth. You are breaking the rules of this site by offending and purposly bothering those that do not believe exactly as you do, your Roman Catholic Way. So chill out, sit back and read and be blessed. If you cannot then write your own article from your own Roman Perspective religous upbringing. I for one am interested believe it or not in your view. Quit getting offended when people do not believe as you. This is not a Roman Catholic site. It is a Christian site and although you do not believe you are a Christian we consider you a brother. So STOP this nonsense!
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Quite thinking everything is about debate and who wins. Sometimes nobody wins if the person causing the problems drills holes in the boat. Not everything is about debate. Think of it as were all on the same team in the same race. Quit tripping everybody. Instead encourage each other. God encouraged you first. Stop accusing your brothers and sisters in Christ. satan is supposed to be the only accuser. QUIT ACCUSING YOUR BRETHERAN.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Everything you accused him of was untrue. YOU NEED TO CHILL OUT. Your accusing him of things he never said nor insinuated. I checked it out and you are breaking the rules of this fellowship.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - he never said anything about income redistribution, social injust or marxism. For you st even insinuate he said that is called "Slandering your Bretheran." Please stop taking on the role of "The Accuser of the Bretheran." For this is only the role of Satan.
I agree with you Jesus' role was to save mankind from the fall of creation, to redeem them and as far as I can tell Niden agrees with you. Quit attacking, open your ears and join the bible study, you might learn something or might not. Quite Slandering him, chill out and open your ears. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason, so you would listen twice as much.
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - Then please explain who those scriptural quotes show that Jesus was a champion of income redistribution and social equality.
Here's one, Daniel 7:15-18:
My spirit trembled; I, Daniel, was affrighted at these things, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I went near to one of them that stood by, and asked the truthof him concerning all these things, and he told me the interpretation of the words, and instructed me:17 These four great beasts, are four kingdoms, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of themost high God shall take thekingdom: and they shall possess the kingdom for ever and ever.What does that quote have to do with with Jesus' attitudes on the state of his society?
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - Please stick to the topic of discussion. Trying to turn this discussion into the psychoanalysis of the people you disagree with furthers the impression that you have nothing constructive to say.
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - Start with this:
The first most apparent life lesson to the boy would’ve been the inequality of the poor. Life is not fair, and we all learn that from a young age, but in Yeshua’s time this was disproportionately the case.Where is any of that in the Bible?
I cannot speak for him, can only
pre-suppose. But that wasn't the 1st scripture he gave you. He said " In
accordance with, 1 Peter 3: 15:
Daniel 7:15-28, Matthew 2: 22-23, Matthew 21: 11, John 18: 5, Psalm 22:6, 13;
69:10, Isaiah 49:7, 53:3; Micah 5:1, Acts 5:33-37, John 1: 4-6, Mark 6: 3, Mt 13: 55, Luke 2: 51-52, Mathew 7: 24-27, Mathew 20: 1-16, Luke 6:
20-22, Mark 1: 21-22, Luke: 2:39-52, Proverbs: 3:5-6, Hebrews 4: 12, John 8:
31-32, John 16: 13-14,.
So I think for you to understand his scriptural support you need to read in
that order. No he in my opinion is very tired of dealing with your nonsense as
are others on this fellowship forum. I agree with his statement that you are not
sincere in your statements are are attacking this fellowship which are against
the rules of this forum, as a nondenominational Christian forum.
So In agreement with him I am saying shut your pie hole and go to
a Catholic blog if your not open to fellowship with a soft heart. For I read
them and concluded they are correct and also will will not play your
insincere games.
God Bless,
Brother RobertLeeRE
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga -
That is a far jump from your slanderous claims on the things he didn't say. You need to repent of the sin of slandering your bretheran and you owe him a public apology. You have disrupted this fellowship. Go to a Catholic blog, if you cannot fellowship here, or bite your tongue and soften your heart; One or the other.
Actually I find that portrayal as very accurate historically and scripturally. I am interested in hearing him and what he going to say. I think it is too soon to see where he is going. Lets see what he says.
God Bless,
Brother RobertLeeRE
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - I haven't committed any slander and your abusive remarks have grown tiresome. There really isn't any point in continuing a discussion under such circumstances.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Good, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
@god_stories@xanga -
Think of this: Mary and Joseph had to keep the secret of their Son being the Messiah since they knew Herod has unsuccessfully attempted to already assasinate Jesus. This might be why John the Baptist and jesus never knew eachother even though they were cousins. Also probably why John the B. grew up in the wilderness. And yes, Mary's life in scripture and the way Jesus brothers treated Jesus give us hints that they never knew Christ was God in the flesh. They never knew. If they had known scripture would have recorded a Mother Mary sitting at the feet of Christ with all the other desciples feeding on every word of Christ's. Same as jesus brothers. we do not really seem them get saved till after the resurrection in the beginning of Acts.
@god_stories@xanga -
As a member of Christendom, I see no problem with focusing on (what I perceive to be the truth in regard to) Christianity to explore spiritual and moral matters. Let’s see what are the basics for me: the bible and other related works are religious guidelines. In a lesser way, spiritual and moral guidelines. The bible cannot be treated as if completely inspired by God because it obviously is not, if God is good. My “image” of God is that She is good. Otherwise we’re dealing with a demon, but I’d rather not go down that path.
“… God … characteristics of Father (yet) … both masculine and feminine …”
Why not just stop anthropomorphising the spiritual realm? Using mundane images and concepts, such as “masculine” or “feminine” is I suspect the very thing that is forbidden, producing “graven images”. Carving statues out of wood or stone is not the only way to do that. Having such images in your head is no different from carving a statue of Jesus with tits.
“and Jesus who walked the earth as a human and acknowledged Himself to be Christ and son of God”
The most famous statement that is said to denote Jesus’ divinity is John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I am” or something similar. Scholars disagree as to the original text. Unsurprising, seeing as we only have copies, but I digress as is my wont.
The declaration of mystics that they are one with God or the Universe is just about the most comment mystical explanation of their experience of the Divine, in all faiths and none. The founder of the Ba’hai was executed particularly brutally in the 19th century for just such an utterance. If anything, Jesus was a mystic. Why should we read more in his statement than in the statements of the founders of just about every other religious endeavour or none. Even devout Christian mystics
have declared a sense of oneness with God with few being suspected of blasphemy. It sees a reasonable thing to use the same level of interpretation with Jesus.
“,and the Holy Spirit who Jesus somehow 'released' through His death.”
Your own Trinitarian belief, if it is orthodox, declares the HS as an equal part of the Godhead, so in what way was It imprisoned?
I always baulk at any notion that pertains to know God’s nature or very being. I rather like the
mediaeval notion of “The Cloud Of Unknowing”, less arrogant and yet deep. The best description, if any is possible, of the spiritual realm.
“as if I (or anyone) would recognize what's offered as actually good.”
Not sure if you’re being sarcastic here. Do you mean that people cannot know what is good? You could mean that your approach is that we can.
I clearly feel the limitation of finding guidelines to be 'good news'...my own bias. I see they are not without value, but they aren't enough to be helpful for me to live the life I hope to live.
Sane, humane and independently minded people who are not sociopaths or psychopaths, have an innate understanding of right and wrong. Some situations are as clear as crystal, other take some figuring. Sometimes, the choice is neutral. To simplify matters, it is the conscience.
“I'm still not sure why exploring Jesus' story as a man is off-putting for you (just
how I interpret what you've shared).”
It smacks of idolatry
It seems you are comfortable with the idea that the Bible is a set of guidelines,”
Until it is clarified that any “holy” text is anything else or indeed, could be anything else. I would not use the term “comfortable” to express how I feel about the turmoil than is God, morality and mundane
existence.
“but perhaps not with the idea that God (any or all of the three persons) is relatable...in terms of an actual relationship with a being or 'person.' That's a reasonable conclusion if one has never had an actual experience of two-way relationship...seems to me.”
I’ve been “born again” and “danced in the spirit” and “spoken in tongues” although no longer. I know what it is to have or believe one has or had a “two-way relationship” with the Divine. So don’t assume my spiritual state. You may be wrong, but not of necessity. :)
“I see many religions offer practical ways to invite people into relationship with God, eg creeds, weekly service, certain spiritual disciplines...”
They all do it, including every Christian or semi-Christian (if I can coin a word) denomination, sect, cult I’ve ever experienced or heard of.
“and my personal bias is that they oversell by suggesting that following guidelines guarantees a result. And I personally hate buying something and finding out its totally less than what I expected!!”
My experience is that I was lucky to come out of the other end of the Charismatic Movement with a reasonable level of sanity and forbearance.
“The God I've come to know is the one doing the wooing and the calling...and He seems to like
me (love me even).”
My relationship with the Divine does not include being wooed like a love-struck girl. No offence meant. That conclusion of mine, if it is a conclusion which I doubt, is due to the stress on the “masculinity” of God and the “girly” language of the devotees.
“Can you not relate to what I've said, ie are you thinking I'm off my trolley for example :)”
No, you’re not off your trolley. I’ve seen and spoken to people with bacon foil around their heads, some of whom did not bring God into the equation, so I have a fair idea of what is on or off a trolley.
In conclusion, now this is a conclusion, I suggest that if you wish to continue this conversation that I copy paste our chat so far in verbatim to a post on my site and we can continue there. That way, we can clear the post we’re commenting on now. It may be an interesting experiment to see if such a discussion can work.
@Lovegrove@xanga - so thanks for exploring with me...seems you're on a spiritual journey...or my interpretation of what you shared, of course, biased by my own experience.
Don't think I disagree with much of anything you wrote...and a huge amount of stuff to explore. I'm game for moving the discussion to your site...and see if writing in a blog is a workable medium. What is more familiar to me for these types of discussion is a warm kitchen, a comfortable couch, or a long walk, but I'm willing to try.
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - Mary and her family's reaction to Jesus is totally familiar to me. Weird God stuff happens, I'm swept up in an overwhelming humbleness that God sees me and is using me...I 'ponder it in my heart' and life gets hard or mundane and I wonder if I'll survive and who is this God. Then even more amazing stuff happens and I need to lean on God to survive or hope to thrive.
So the fact that Mary experienced all that cool stuff at Jesus' birth than merely ponders that as Jesus grows and family life is hard and mundane, until even more freaky stuff happens...is totally human in my mind.
But Mary did suspect something of Jesus' divinity or perhaps just His gifting to solve problems in amazing ways when she tells Him about the shortage of wine. And even when He says its not my time...she, as a Mom is won't to do, ignores Him and tells the servants to do what He says.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - You're not asking questions really. You're trollishly making an acusation. By asking me to prove scripture says: "that Jesus was shaped by the Marxist version of social injustice" you're in effect accusing me of being a "Marxist-Socialist" this is called a strawman fallacy. [LINK] As long as you are attempting to force me to defend a point of view that I do not suscribe to you will be treated as a troll.
You did ask me to provide scripture that I use to suport the assertions I did make and I provided those scriptures. It is up to you to open your bible and study God's word. If you actually show an interest in God's word, I'll take you seriously. but as long as you are acting the part of the troll, I have no intetion of casting pearl before swine.
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - I thought you'd be interested in the response above.
@RobertLeeRE@xanga - The Romans were a very ego centric people. They conquered the world because they honestly believed that it was their birthright to conquer the world. Many of these conquered people were even brought back to Rome to be slaves, even educated people, and educated slaves where worth a LOT of money to the Romans. So yes, it's very easy to see how they could easily associate "rednecks" from Galilee with Africans that have a bone in their nose. The average Roman citizen would certainly not make the same segregations we would.
that said in the past twenty four hours I’ve gone back to the books to try and find if any historians follow your viewpoint, to see if I could read a better argument from closer to your point of view. So far I have had little luck. If you could recommend something that might help our discussion.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - I'm sorry for the difficult conversations you're having here. It seems an invitation for you to risk more of yourself...and to offer even more honestly.
My birth family were all members of a Catholic community through all of my school years and I totally appreciate that most of the Christian mystics practiced their faith in Catholic communities.
I wonder how it might feel for you to challenge yourself to share more of your own honest experiences of your faith. It seems you lean a lot on your understanding of doctrine and well entrenched labels...just my own observation, please disregard if it doesn't feel true for you.
Thanks, you totally have something of value to say!
@god_stories@xanga - And since this particular post is based on seeing history through a particular ideological lens, the discussion must necessarily be of a theological and philosophical nature.
@Nidan - People tend to become very rude when their dogmas are called into question. Politics and religion are topics of such great diversity that to call someone a troll for voicing an alternate opinion and calling into question the opinions expressed here, is really a tragedy.
It means that you have narrowed your focus to such a limited viewpoint that to look at anything else would simply blow your world away.It means that you view anyone who questions you as a mortal threat. And that is not the case at all. Vibrant discussion is actually enlightening, not threatening.