I agree. Election without freewill makes no sense.

Wesley's proposal totally ignored the depravity of Adam's race, which includes the fact that men don't have free will to choose Christ. He seemed to be comparing the two systems as theories competing to give God the more glory and concluded that God should do all He can to offer salvation to all men and to save those who consent. This, in fact, He already does in the Calvinist system, but  He also makes select sinners willing and able to believe.

He commands all men to repent and believe the gospel, not that they are able to do so without His in-working, but because this is the proper duty of man in response to the Good News. He has commanded the gospel be preached to every person. There isn't an expectation that all who hear it will respond, but we know some will respond from every tribe and tongue, because God is sovereign over salvation. Only "as many as were ordained to eternal life will believe", those to whom "God has granted repentance unto life", the elect. Those who hear and don't respond are like first century Israel, adding to the weight of their guilt until the full measure of their sins be compiled and judgement will come upon them. True, they didn't have the moral ability to respond to the gospel, because they loved themselves and sin more than God, but their lack of moral ability is a result of continual hardening of the heart and only compounds their guilt.

God doesn't destroy men's nature by saving them from their sins; He gives them a new nature like His. He sets them free from slavery to sin and gives them free will to choose to continue in His grace, or to turn back into the world. Prior to salvation, they had no free will, no ability to choose God and reject sin; but now they have both. Again, Mr. Wesley is theorizing in denial of human depravity and that is the flaw in his proposal.

@Rocky - Interestingly, total depravity was the only point of TULIP Arminians (including Wesley) affirmed. Wesley just believed equally in prevenient grace allowing all people to freely choose God. At the same time, he didn’t believe that God’s grace was irresistible, an idea he traced to Augustine’s neoplatonism and could not find support for it in Scripture. After all, weren’t Eden and creation products of God’s grace?

@SirNickDon@xanga - @Rocky - The bible clearly says we can resist the Holy Ghost. Acts 7:51 - "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

And Hebrews 3:7-8 - "Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts."

Rocky you said -  

@SirNickDon@xanga - I don't believe it's an either/or, but both. God elects both individuals and the church or body of Christ. God has foreknowledge of what each individual will do and elects individually according to his foreknowledge as I Peter 1:2 says. It sounds like maybe you're coming from more of an Open Theism view, which I don't espouse.

@ETCACTOR@xanga - I believe in predestination but I don't believe God predestines everything. He predestined that Jesus would die on the cross for us. He also predestines that those who are "already saved", will be conformed to the image of his Son. I don't believe however that every time a little child is molested, that God predestined that to happen. God would be a monster if that was true.

@SirNickDon@xanga -As I said, I don't believe it's an either/or.

@SirNickDon@xanga -   

@SirNickDon@xanga - I remember studying similar theories before-- I'll check out the links-- but I believe 1 Corinth. 1:26-28 suggests that election is of individuals, not groups. We know from Revelation that there will be people in heaven from every tribe, nation and tongue; I don't know if that corresponds to what you're saying.  Thanks for the links. 

@musterion99@xanga It doesn't say that the Holy Spirit was drawing them to salvation and that they had resisted God's election. How can it be of any surprise that the murderers of Christ would be resisters of the Holy Spirit? I think you know better than to try to compare the fact that people sin to the illogic that a person who is elect to salvation will not embrace the Savior. Apples and Oranges. True, people harden their heart and God hardens their heart, or maybe the two are one and the same. It's like conversion and repentance. Conversion is what God does, repentance is what we do, like two sides of a coin.

The Bible says that no one can resist His will, that is, thwart His purposes, His secret decrees: 2 Chron.20:6; Daniel 4:35; Rom.9:19-23 and many more verses. When people sin they are rebelling against His revealed will and fully guilty, but their sinning is in accordance with His plan, or at least doesn't interfere with His plans in general. If they interfered with His plans, He would stop them from sinning like God prevented Abimelech from committing adultery in ignorance. Each person is entirely at the mercy of God every second of the day, so they can do nothing which He doesn't allow. (Daniel 5:23; Acts 17:28) Jesus told the Pharisees that God would continue to send prophets and wise men to them for them to resist, persecute and kill until they fill up the measure of their sins for the judgment of 70 AD. God was in charge the whole time, not man.

Yes God knows the future. The reason He knows the future is because He controls the now which produces the future. The scripture uses the term "know" to mean "have an intimate fellowship and favor with", what we call "salvation". Of some it will be said "I never knew you", others "I know you not". Paul declared "The Lord knoweth them that are His" and when his ministry in one town had a rough start, Jesus told Paul to stay and preach for "I have much people in this city"... before they even heard the gospel, they belonged to God. "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed"-- No more, no less. God doesn't wonder how many will be saved. He decides it, just like He reserved 7,000 men who hadn't bowed the knee to Baal, and in Revelation He will save and call exactly 12,000 from 12 tribes, 144,000 in all. None will be missing.

The word "foreknow" is a verb in the active voice... those whom God foreknew... that is He decided that He would know them as His own children due to His purpose and love; these objects of His love, His knowing, He also  predestined to be conformed to Christ's image. Notice the word "also". The foreknowing and the predestining are both the actions and initiative of God, not His response. He is the active agent when He "knows" someone; its not a passive knowing and its not a knowledge of their actions or confession of faith for they can't exercise faith until He gives them that gift. They can't repent until He grants them repentance. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. So, obviously, He doesn't elect people based on their decisions. They decide for Christ based upon God's predestination, by which He fore-knows them as His children, in intimate relationship with Him. If it referred to His foreknowledge as in prescience, then the text would be saying that all men are saved and predestined to be conformed to Christ's image, since He foreknows all men in *that* sense.

I agree with your last statement, friend. And God bless you too. Brothers in Christ can agree to disagree.