For those of you who cannot/won't click on it, it's about a guy who asked me, out of the blue one day, why it is that women want to work or seek employment. Before I could really answer, since I was so confused as to why someone today would pose such a question, he suggested that it is because women want to work underneath a man, or be controlled by a man.
We later struck the same subject again, and he said that he was speaking of it in a professional setting, though in my opinion it doesn't matter which setting he is referring to. I then argued with him because it made me furious,the fact that such a question even appeared in his brain in the first place.
He then asked me if I truly believe the Bible. I said that I believe in God.
He then brought up Genesis, and said that God created woman in man's image, and brought up examples of women's servitude.
He then told me that his belief shouldn't bother me because if I were truly a Christian, and believed in God, I would know that his opinions are true.
So my question to you is, from a Christian's viewpoint, what do you make of this situation? Because according to his views, it seems as if the whole feminist movement, from Woolfe to Adrienne Rich to so many others was incorrect and "sinful."
What do you think about this man's assertions about women in the workplace? Do passages in Genesis really support his views, or are there other scriptures that shed light on this subject?
I recently submitted a post to Datingish.
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Comments (28)
The natural state of man is complete liberty. Men and woman are both "man". So they both exist in a state of complete liberty and equality.
Servitude, then is out of the question as it violates liberty and equality.This is a secular argument derived from reason and therefore does not need God's revelation to understand as being truthful.
oops I forgot to include the all famous ones from Ephesians 5 and such. Though, I'd like to point out that it says "wife" al ot instead of just woman.
I wanted to see what other people's interpretations are about this subject since it conflates a very important era in human history of social justice and of Christianity beliefs
Sounds like he is listening to some misogynistic pastors that are becoming popular and desires to be in control of women. It also sounds like he's never listened to women before.
Work is a part of every person's life and work is worship. It makes sense that women want to work in various ways (just as men do). Proverbs 31 shows a woman who works hard and who contributes not only to her home but the local economy (she is a good wife, has real estate savvy, and runs a vineyard while also having a fashion line which shows she has entrepreneurship). Women want to work because they ought to work as humans. Every person is to be a contributor to the world. Women are not confined to working only in the home or to falling under the leadership of males in all spheres of life. The Bible doesn't teach that. Women don't seek vocations so that they can be under men. Some, maybe, sure, but universally? You'd have to be a fool to believe such a thing.
Last I checked, God created humanity in HIS image, male and female he created them.
The Old Testament reflects a bronze mentality of savage tribes. For instance, it specifically endorses slavery and Christians justified slavery for centuries from the bible. Just reject this primitive nutjob and get on with your life. I'd be interested in his denomination and it would not surprise me that he turns out to be in one of these literalist protestant break away groups who find other literalist protestant breakaway groups they broke away from too liberal. If you must waste your time with him, find out what gang he's in. Watch him uhm and ah as he avoids telling you he's in some obscure nutjob group who think the pope's the anti-Christ and probably Obama too. I've seen these people close up. It aint pretty.
From my interpretation of the Bible, a woman is only second in her household and can be whatever she wants in the workplace as long as her work doesn't affect the head of household. The woman should technically also not be the "more successful" partner in the relationship, but it says nothing about if a woman is unmarried.
Yikes. I can't really comment on this from a Christian's perspective, but props to you for even putting up with this jerk!
a lot of conservative christians would view me as a heretic, but what i believe is that i have to take into account the human beings who were writing the bible and the society in which they lived, which was extremely sexist. i firmly believe that god loves all human beings equally and wants them to treat each other as equals. i refuse to be subordinate to men just because i have two x chromosomes and a vagina. that's just so petty and ridiculous to me, and the god in which i believe would agree with me.
"re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book,
dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be a
great poem and have the richest fluency not only in its words but in the
silent lines of its lips and face and between the lashes of your eyes
and in every motion and joint of your body." - walt whitman.
that's how i see it. i'm not a second-class citizen in god's eyes.
First, I don't take the Bibles creation of humans as literal, so the whole eve came out of Adam is more poetic then literal. Second, the word "Adam" is better translated as "human," and it was only when Eve was taken out, that Adam became a man and eve a woman. Also, I think God transcendences both male or female categories, I don't think he is either. Also, I think if you look at the contexts of scripture, especially in Paul's time, that they were often working under other cultic religions and practices disdained by Christians at that time. There are numerous examples of prophetess, like Deborah, or early church leaders who are examples of women in the Bible. I think people use patriarchal examples in the Bible to justify their own cultural ideas.
@vicdaily@xanga - Do you think a woman who has become a CEO or makes a lot of money should leave her position or take a pay cut upon marrying a man who is not earning as much or in as high a position as her new husband is in his line of work?
This man is an instigator and not interested in truth, so I would not chase this any further with him. The genders were created to help each other and be companions.
that's why I think organized religion is a problem in most cases. I wish I could help you, but I can only say I don't "believe in the Bible." I think you don't have to take by the word everything it says and you can still be spiritual and appreciate some values of the Christian religion. Jesus himself did not 'fit in' either.
But I am not talking from the perspective of someone who is actually religous.
Your male co-worker is ignorant about what the Bible says.
In Genesis 2 the Hebrew word translated "helper" in most English translations is not a word that denotes subservience. It means helper, but more in term of being a powerful ally. The word is actually used elsewhere to describe God, who is obviously not described as any human's servant anywhere in Scripture. Also woman, like man, was created in God's image, not man's ("So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them").
As for the "famous" passages in Ephesians 5 and elsewhere in the New Testament, recall that the epistles were addressed to First Century Christians who lived under Roman rule. Under Roman law the patriarch of a house had virtually total rights over everyone in the household: the wife, children (including unemancipated adult males) and slaves. Instructions over husband-wife relationships and the father-child relationships frequently appear along with instructions over master-slave relationships and other relationships involving one having civil authority over the other.
Recall also that with First Century Christians nearly all of them were converts, and that "generational" Christianity was virtually unheard of. This meant that often Christian wives had non-Christian husbands and Christian husbands had non-Christian wives. As in other relationships where one had legal authority over the other, wives were counseled not to buck the societal order and husbands were told to treat their wives with special kindness and love. This wasn't because the societal order was just, but the early Christians had a different goal, to win over those around them and guide them to a saving faith in Jesus Christ.
Even the so-called "perfect wife" passage gets misinterpreted. Some point out how diligently the woman described works around the home...and ignore the part where she ran her own business out of the home. It could be said that the "perfect" wife was a CEO.
Just to clear up the mud with some of the commenters, the Bible never (at least not to my knowledge) tells women to submit to men. It tells wives to submit to their husbands, and it tells all believers to submit to their governing authorities, and to ultimately submit to one another out of a reverence for Christ.
The best place for a woman is to be a wife and mom in a loving, safe home where she can thrive.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - I think a man can be the head of household without making the most money. That being said, success in the workplace can change things at home, so it really depends on the couple. I personally would never marry someone I didn't think could lead me effectively in some way (most likely spiritual because of my strength in most other areas) and I'd imagine most powerful women have the same type A mentality. Also a lot of successful women won't marry at all or will go through multiple divorces.
For the sake of his flawed argument, pull out Deborah, since he's going old testament on you. She was a leader, and a judge. What of her?
My view is that in marriage, God created man to be the head of the woman. To lead her and to love her as Christ leads and loves the church. That's clearly what the Bible says and teaches. It also teaches that women are to respect man, as he is made in God's image. However, on that note, we are also to respect and love every individual, because humanity was made in God's image. :) To verify, and counterattack his argument, in the scripture, Genesis 1:27, to be exact, it says "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Notice on the last part: male and female. While woman was created out of man, she was NOT created in man's image. Oh no, no, no. The scripture says that MALE AND FEMALE alike were created in God's image. It doesn't say that woman was created in man's image. There is a difference in being created from and in the image of something. Just wanted to clarify that point. I can try and get the original Hebrew translated for you on this, if you'd like?
In regards to work, it tells each person to do their best, regardless to where they work. I think God has built us to each more naturally fulfill certain roles. However, while the norm, there are allowed exceptions, such as my use of Deborah from the Bible earlier. :) I think we need to not get so worked up over those silly points of who's over who. Look at individuals as people, not male or female specifically. See what I'm saying? For example to my point of being created more naturally for certain roles... If a man is president, he most often has to struggle with pride and greed and offense. If a woman were president, I could see her struggle more on the emotional side, and dealing with and handling stress, and not letting emotions cloud her judgement. So, though we can each participate in certain leadership roles, we will each have our own struggles to deal with. We are each people, each created in the image of God. You know?
Hope this helps. *hugs*
Hi, may name is Amanda and your post caught my attention. I have a few thoughts...but Scripture first.
"God said, Let Us make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness...So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them" Genesis 1:26-27
"What God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He breathed THEM male and female and blessed them and named THEM Adam at the time THEY were created" Genesis 5:1-2
"Then Adam said, 'This is now bone of my bones ad flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man.'" Genesis 2:22
Yes, women was made from man, but she is equally created in the image of God as Genesis 1:26-17 and 5:1-2 says.
As for women WANTING to be under man....many people believe Genesis 3:16, which describes the curse, explains how the woman's "desire for her husband" is actually referring to her not wanting to be under her husband's leadership. While it's part of God's design, the family is God's design for order, there is no question about that as I can see in the Word. However, even though a woman is to be submissive to her husband (and the husband is to love his wife AS CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH, a harder task I'm sure) it's not a hierarchy of importance of person-hood as 1 Peter 5:5 calls all people to be submissive to one another and to be clothed with humility.
I believe your co-worker has a misunderstanding of many passages in the Scriptures. Point Him back to the truth in the Word after studying it for yourself girl!
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
Shalom!
@itiswhatitis19@xanga - @randomneuralfirings@xanga - @walawalawinksi@xanga - @akarui_mitsukai@xanga - I agree with all of you (these) guys and ladies! Genesis 3:16, which describes the curse, explains how the woman's "desire for her husband" = this is a curse that came from sin and i think its opposite can be found in Galatians 3:28 (no male nor female, greek nor jew, slave nor fee, all are one in Christ). In my opinion, the person and work of Christ is to bring in God's Kingdom, whcih was how things were supposed to be before the fall. things are not perfect, such as pain, suffering, or even things like Divorce; hwoever, god is beggining to reconcile the world and I think equality and appreciation of diversity, whether race or gender or class, is all part of God's Plan and kingdom. As far as Ephesians 5, I beleve verses 20-26-ish, I think if you read it close, it actually is speaking about mutual submission, not merely heirachical/patriarchal submission. It is also important to note both, male and female, submit to God first and foremost. I think females are free to work or not, it just depends on them (I also believe they can be pastors and deacons too).
the difficilty is that many Christians, males and females, are on seperate sides of this issue. So, you will get some who say women should not be working and not be in any leadership positions at churches (stay at home mom, maybe be a teacher). some will say women can work but cannot lead at church. then some, like myself, say women can do whatever as long as they are using thier talents, gifts, and abilities. I gladly enocurage my sisters in the faith (and in humanity) to use thier gifts, as I hope they would encourage me to use my own, especially when i doubt myself.
He is wrong about the servitude part because women played a very active and important role in the ministry of Jesus...and they were quite active throughtout The Old Testament to...the role of women changes quite significantly after Genesis....probably becasue some of the writers of The Bible may have been women in later years...The Book Of Genesis is undoubtedly written by a male who reflected the attitude of his times but we no longer live in those times and the times started almost immediately afterr Genesis. Does he realize that are several references to God's femine characteristics through out The Old Testament. I would recommend nt to pursue this relationship because you do not want to lead him on. Better just to tell that there are too many differences between the two of you and suggest that he pursue so one else. Its up to you if you want to stay friends with this guy but I think it wise to let him know where he stands with you. But the draw the line immediately and do not budge from it. No sense in leading him on. Good luck.
I encourage him to read Half the Church: Recapturing God's Global Vision for Women.
And chapter 11 and 12 of Half the Sky. When countries educate women and embrace them as members of the workforce, living conditions dramatically go up and things like infant and child mortality go down significantly.
1) He's cherry picked his examples and interpretations of the Bible, which offered notable improvements of the treatment of women for the time and a compelling tale (in Old and New Testaments) of redemption offered to people of both sexes.
2) Don't ever date this guy.
Men and women were both created in God's image. The way I see it, different qualities of God are found in men and women. Men and women are equal, but have different qualities, that's all.
@Lovegrove - duh you. Christianity did not justify slavery. St. Paul CLEARLY said the slave is equal to the master. You want to slam stuff and you just go ahead and do it. But, you are way wrong. Slavery existed because the WORLD established it. Not the Church. In the Church: all were equal...but you somehow conveniently overlook that....because YOU, dude, are prejudiced. Rah!
@mortimerZilch@xanga -« Duh » ? « duh » ? How old are you ?
In passing, there is no need to capitalize in order to stress a point. I have
the appropriate command of grammar usage in the English language.
Neither does your adolescent ad hominem attack on my honesty and integrity persuade
any but the ignorant that I am therefore wrong. However, it does give the
neutral observer an example of the dishonest means some Christians are willing
to use to argue their case. Attack in order to defend is the principle I assume
you think you are using.
Paul and Peter come to that, also clearly told runaway slaves to return
to their masters. That alone has encouraged advocates of slavery down through
the centuries on through when the slavery of the colonial period made it a race
issue rather than a class issue; thereby supporting the Boars in their
suppression of their ex-slaves into recent living memory.
Without going into the Torah to show where slavery is endorsed and to
the Epistles where Paul and Peter tell slaves to obey their masters without
speaking of the unjust and horrendous system involved; I did not say that
Christianity justified slavery as such. Whether it does or not is a disputed
question but is not what I said. To reiterate somewhat, I said “Christians justified
slavery for centuries from the bible”. I did not say or imply that it meant
that Christian teaching endorsed slavery. Although I will say it did not
condemn it and therefore permitted it to flourish when and where it became enviable.
In passing, in case you missed it, my slavery direction was to point out
in regard to the bible advocating women as second class people for intents and
purposes, is primitive nonsense that modern secular societies are slowly
improving. I say slowly because it is a hard uphill battle improving anything for
women when one has to deal with the fundamentalist aka literalist gang, of
which I assume you are a junior member.
So if you do want to defend what you presumably hold dear, try to do it
in a more mature, respectful and if possible, thoughtful way.
"Boers" not "Boars"
First of all, that 'man' was not speaking of it 'in a professional setting'.No, he was INTIMIDATING you, almost HARASSMENT. There are ways to get your religious point across without offending, intimidating, another person. There are many differences in the OT, NT.. not going into it, but, this JERK sounds like a bully. Do NOT offer your religious views unless someone ASKS YOU!!! His views are out of touch with todays economic outlook. Do not engage in a conversation with him, YOU WILL NEVER WIN. People like this know very little and like showing it. Christianity focuses more than on the books of the OT, especially Genesis. If you can feel sorry for those 'under' him in his family-i.e. his wife and children.