Thursday, 02 February 2012
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Is There a God?
The universe is filled with great questions, many of which the answers define our very existence. As Stephen hawking once said answering those questions is our greatest legacy as a race. I would even dare say that those questions are the reason we’re here. It is our explorative edge that drives us forward. It’s been said that the universe contains wonders to satiate desires subtle and gross. Unfortunately it’s the fanatics of our society that hold us back from that legacy.Most people don’t like absolutes. (It’s my way or the highway.) Absolutes are about control and validation, little else. Some people think they know everything, so they have to intrude on everyone else’s lives to force others to conform to their beliefs, because in their mind, their beliefs are fact.
On the question of God there are three basic positions. They are the Theist, the Agnostic, and the Atheist. Then in those positions people tend to lean on two sides.
- Theists lean from moderate to fundamentalist. (Though I prefer to use the word fanatic to describe them)
- Agnostics tend to lean towards theism or Atheism. (I lean theist)
- Atheists lean from moderate to fanatic as well. (Secular fanatic, specifically)
So when I use the term “secular-fanatic” you should know I’m NOT talking about all Atheists and Agnostics even though there are many who still to this day claim that I do. (That’s a strawman fallacy)
Taking sides
What's most annoying of all is if you refuse to validate their beliefs with your conformity, they attack you by calling you stupid (If they’re a secular-fanatic) or a heathen. (If they’re religious-fundamentalists) But if their facts are as absolute as they insist then why do they need you to agree with them so badly?
Currently in the US, the major debate between these sides take between two to four forms. (Depending on your point of view) They are as follows:
- Six dayism v Eonism,
- Evolution v Species integrity,
- Intelligent design v Exclusion a Priori,
- Big bang v.... I'm not really sure why fundamentalists have an issue with this idea, really. Or what they propose to oppose this concept.
Most of the above debates are actually a distraction from the real issue anyway.
For example, one of the closest guarded secrets that so-called conservative Christians don’t want you to know is that scripture doesn’t actually say that the universe is 6,000 years old. And frankly it's a claim I don't buy into. Even if you maintain that Genesis chapter 1 refers to seven 24 hour time periods, the 6-K count comes from a catholic priest who lived centuries after all the inspired scripture writers died, and he used a great deal of conjecture in his figures. Much of that conjecture is quite debatable at that.
Then on the other side of that coin, the biggest fallacy that the secular fanatics make is that even if the theory of evolution holds up as absolute fact, it simply could be that evolution is a tool of God. (The existence of a creator is simply NOT mutually exclusive with the process of evolution) Think about it, why couldn’t God have used evolution to shape life on earth?
Also I expect that the reason that secular fanatics attack so aggressively is because modern dogma seems to demand that if the universe really is only 6000 years, (or less than 15 billion) then agnosticism falls apart. (As does the self-worth of the deep rooted-fanatics) I don’t buy that either. A hundred years ago the dogma was that if the universe were shown to have a beginning at all, that that would prove the existence of a creator.
Lemaitre came along and demonstrated that the universe was expanding, and thus logically had to have a beginning. Both secular and Christian fanatics spit vitriol at him, but in the end the truth prevailed. Atheists adjusted their thinking, as did Christians.
Questions
I'll tackle the age of the universe in a future article. For now let's get to the bigger issue: Is there a God? I like to break issues like this down into their simplest form. That seems to be the best way to explain them to others. This issue breaks into 5 basic questions:
- What is a deity?
- What is God?
- Do gods of any kind exist?
- Was Jesus God
- If so, what evidence backs him up?
Magic
To oppose the question of what God is, Atheists like to invoke the term magic. Modern dogma dictates that, anyone who believes in magic is obviously a fool because there’s no such thing as magic. But that depends greatly on how you define magic. Merriam Webster defines magic simply as: “supernatural powers” (No help there)
Arthur C Clarke once maintained that Any sufficiently advanced concept can be indistinguishable from magic to the primitive mind. I like to think of it in terms of the caveman and the gun. If you could travel back in time, and shoot the cave-man’s best friend with your gun, because he's never seen a gun before, he would think it's magic.
I'd expect that God is very much like that, but on a much grander scale.
The Law of Causality
The primary argument that theists put forth is the apparent fact that the universe seems to be an effect. (Ergo it needs a cause) The law of cause and effect is very real in our universe. It’s also the big issue we’re debating about when it comes to the beginning of all things. In other words, whatever it is that caused the universe to come into being, must logically have preceded the universe.
But the more you understand about relativity, the more this fact gets muddied up as well. It’s been shown that time is NOT a ridged construct. When exactly an hour passes for you, that does not necessitate that exactly an hour passes for me as well.
That is because however long an hour is, depends also on your speed, and distance from a gravitational source. (For example: the GPS satellites depend on an exact tracking of time to compute your location on earth, so NASA had to set the clocks wrong on purpose, to keep them in sync with ground clocks.)
No matter what speed you are traveling, light will always pass you by at about 186,000 miles per second. That is true, no matter which direction you are going or the speed or location of the source of the light. (You can observe this fact by closely watching the planets and moons of our solar system from the ground over the course of a year.)
The reason why this is true is because the faster you travel, the tighter a second from your point of view is stretched out from an objective viewpoint. The latest cosmological theories suggest that time is a dimension similar to the three dimensions of a cube.
From the inside it appears that everything happens from one moment to the next with time moving in one direction. (Toward the future) But in looking from the outside into the universe, everything happens (Both cause and effect) simultaneously.
Further if you are on the outside, then you logically should by definition exist before and after the universe and all at the moment you exit it. Whatever point in time you are born or exit become irrelevant.
(It’s like that old riddle goes: If you could stop time, complete a particular task, then start time up again; how long would time have been frozen? The answer depends on your point of view.)
Exclusion a Priori
So what caused the universe? Theists specifically argue that the cause was their God. Then Atheists argue that the cause is anything but a God of any kind. This is called Exclusion a Priori. The kicker is that then they claim the “anything but” solution is the simpler statement and declare Occam’s razor. That fails on two points:
- It assumes the rules are the same outside our universe as inside.
- They still have not provided an alternative idea.
So it is NOT a simpler solution to the problem. It's just a simpler statement. That makes the point fallacious, because it's an argument of semantics.
The argument is simply that any argument for an intelligence to have designed the universe is inherently a religious idea, and should be labeled as such. And that label somehow excludes the idea from science. (In other words they are saying that by labeling and idea as religious it magically makes the idea untrue.)
The counterpoint
It is reasonable to conclude that whatever did make the universe preceded the universe. Where secular fanatics could make a good point is in that whatever that is, is not necessarily an intelligent being or life form. And that's a quite different argument from the for-mentioned "anything-but" position.
That would then be the point where theists once again MUST return to logic.
The universe is governed by laws. Merriam Webster defines a law as a principle stating something that always works the same way under the same conditions. In other words the Universe is basically a great big machine that operates under strict set of principles.
These principles are commonly called laws, and are NOT subject to change. Theoretically they apply here on earth the same as they do out at the other edge of the Milky Way galaxy, or even in other galaxies on the other side of the cosmos. They cannot be broken.
We have from time to time found ways around them, or bent them a little. We have learned to play some rules off on others, but we cannot break them entirely.
Those laws also make order in the universe possible. Without them; planets and stars cannot form, matter would not have integrity, and life cannot exist. If you except all of this to be true, and most rationalists do, then it’s only a matter time before you ask; how something that is NOT intelligent could possibly have put it all in place.
Conclusion
This is all well shy of being able to say for certain that something of the sort couldn’t create the universe without intelligence. But I expect what’s really missing from the Atheist side of the debate. An actual something that could cause the universe, and cause it to be so ordered.
You probably noticed that I have yet to get into the questions about Christianity and Jesus. That’s the subject of a future post. Just getting to this point has been insanely long and there is at least twice as much to cover on the subject of Jesus.
Is this a valid argument for the existence of God? Do you have anything to add to the argument?
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Comments (31)
To say with 100% certainty that there is or isn't a supernatural being is impossible. I don't care how sure we may be of what we believe, there is no way to absolutely say one way or the other. To claim absolute knowledge of such a thing is arrogant and asinine.
Sure, you can make arguments for and against, but that's hardly convincing. I personally see no reason to believe in a god of any sort. There is just not enough evidence to assert that there is one, and when there's not you can't reject a null hypothesis. Yes, I'm talking like a statistician here, but it's really the only way I know how to make logical decisions.
At the same time, statistics can be misleading. One thing I am all but certain of though: if a god does exist its more than likely some invisible, impersonal force rather than the sadistic, megalomaniacal dictator that monotheistic religions have painted god out to be.
i think i could get on board with a deity of some fashion. but it wouldn't be the Christian definition. if there is an omnipotent being, my experience of life so far has show me that S/He either likes to mess with us, or doesn't pay any attention whatsoever.
if anything, the most logical religion in all of human history has to be animism. why not worship nature, which is both a force we are mostly inferior to, and a force we have 100% evidence for?
so i suppose that, on good days, i'm a Deist (with animistic/pagan leanings). otherwise, i'm 100% agnostic/ignostic/apatheist. i don't know if God exists, i'm not even sure what the definition of God is, and i'm not sure i care either way.
the explanation for god/gods is simple: people fear death.
Blaming a Catholic priest for words that were clearly written in Hebrew and then translated clearly to Greek is an example of conjuring up a falsehood out of convenience.
Also, cause and effect and the beginning of the universe have absolutely nothing to do with time. Since time did no exist before the universe it was also caused by whatever caused the universe to come into being.We know from science that time is woven into the fabric of space. So time muddies nothing.
Those two critical errors destroy the credibility of this piece.
Q: Is this a valid argument for the existence of God?
A: No. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceQ: Do you have anything to add to the argument? A: Yes, people on both sides of the debate truly are on the same side of a certain construct and so do not have full information and therefore shall never reach full agreement.
http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-God-Grandchildren-Atheism-ebook/dp/B004D4YAQ4
If the universe oscillates, that would explain "our" big bang and suggest the universe is eternal. That the universe is God or a manifestation of God, a "persona" if you will, then that would explain the existence of God per se. That's the way I take it anyway and it satisfies my pertinent questions. Now I can get on with being a hypocrite.
"So what caused the universe? Theists specifically argue that the cause was their God. Then Atheists argue that the cause is anything but a God of any kind. "
Except that they don't. Atheism is only a claim that theistic claims are not valid (which the cosmological argument isn't.). It's not an arbitrary claim that any fathomable past or future theistic claim is false. It would be impossible for me to state that there is no God, particularly because you can't falsify an unfalsifiable claim. I only point out that unfalsiable claims are worthless, and by extension so are unfalsifiable arguments and definitions for God, which is the majority of them.
"Arthur C Clarke once maintained that Any sufficiently advanced concept can be indistinguishable from magic to the primitive mind. I like to think of it in terms of the caveman and the gun. If you could travel back in time, and shoot the cave-man’s best friend with your gun, because he's never seen a gun before, he would think it's magic.
I'd expect that God is very much like that, but on a much grander scale."
Sorry, pointing out that advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic doesn't allow you to cop-out and use magic to make claims because maybe it's not really magic. You still have to connect the dots. You can't weasel around valid objections just "because God is God, lol." The Atheist objections to magic still stand.
"They still have not provided an alternative idea."
You don't have to prove a better claim in order to invalidate a flawed claim. If you said that 2+2=5, I don't have to point out to you that 2+2=4 - I could just point out that 2+3=5, and therefore 2+2 does not equal five.
All around, pretty poor reasoning throughout the article.
You provide an 'argument', whether it is 'valid' or 'invalid' depends upon one's point of view. Time is a false measurement because of the assumptions to be made and perspective involved. Speed is also a relative matter. Ultimately, people who claim to be scientists may concoct some hypothesis as to 'how' this all came to be, but that does not mean the truth of how this all came to be was discovered. This, then, leads to the question --- do you believe in God as He has revealed Himself in the Bible? It is a matter of belief, of faith.
@StatelessPilot - Since cause and effect are intrinsic to our universe, we can trace all effects to a first cause.
That first cause is God.
So yes, we can know that God exists. If you wish to define God as a supernatural being, that's on you. But as I have just shown, the existence of God can be proven in a most simple manner.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Humans look for patterns that aren't really there. If I did this:
---------------------------------------------------------
You say you'd see a straight line, but it's not actually a straight line. It's a series of straight lines. We try to assign meaning or value to something that doesn't have that (it's instinctual). So no, cause and effect are not "intrinsic" and some things have no direct cause, even in our own lives.
@StatelessPilot - I didn't refer to a pattern. I just used the simplest of reasoning. If you can't comprehend the simplest of reasoning then you are a man of faith.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - The point being is that not everything is cause an effect. There are some things that have no cause at all. If we're talking about human health, for example, primary hypertension. Primary hypertension (which accounts for all but 10% of hypertension cases) has no known cause and that's just a person's natural blood pressure. It happens.
@StatelessPilot - For every effect there is a cause. That is a basic principle of physics.
You do believe in science don't you? Well then, if we trace every cause back to the first cause, the first cause is God.
It's as simple as that. Even the pagan ancient Greeks had that figured out 2500 years ago.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Not really. I think science is mostly a bunch of lies, fabrications, and bullshit. Nothing in science can be absolutely proven, and it's often biased in the interest of making money (vaccines for example, which really don't work but we've all been led to believe they do).
@StatelessPilot - The Christians who believe that God created the universe in six, 24 hour days are in complete agreement with you.
Like I said. You are a man of faith.@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - The Christians who believe in a literal six day creation 6,000 years ago are reading the Bible in the most literal, accurate way. That IS what the Bible says. If you don't agree with that premise you don't agree with the Bible.
Of course, they also shy away from the fact that they're supposed to kill anyone who works on the sabbath, kill homosexuals, kill nonbelievers, kill their disobedient children too, so I guess they don't take the Bible too seriously either.
@StatelessPilot - Science says that the Earth day has never been 24 hours. The Moon's gravitational drag on the ocean is constantly slowing down the rotation of the Earth thus increasing the length of the "day".
Biblical scholars understand that it is complete nonsense to take Genesis literally.
The purpose of Genesis was to demythologize the pantheon of pagan gods in use at the time. Genesis has nothing to do with cosmology.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Apparently you haven't read many Bible scholars then. There are those who DO say Genesis should be taken literally.
Of course, no two Bible scholars agree on anything, so why should I take any of them seriously?
@StatelessPilot - Any reputable Bible scholar knows that there are various ways to interpret scriptural text.
And it was the Catholic Church who gave the Bible to the world. So it is the Church who has the authority to interpret the meaning of the Bible.
Church teaching is that faith cannot contradict reason. And scientific reason is that the universe took billions of years to develop the universe and a planet called Earth.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - How do you know that the first cause was a God? Does God need a creator? What particular characteristics does the universe lack, that God contains, that makes him non-causal?
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - Be definition the first cause is God.
That's because the first cause is itself uncaused, otherwise it would not be "first" cause. And it was the first cause that caused everything else to come into being.
@Lovegrove@xanga - There is no evidence that the universe oscillates. Consequently, such a notion is pure speculation and speculation cannot serve as an effective counter claim because it isn't real.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - That's true, it is a theory,an unprovable theory as far as I know, just like the existence of the spiritual realm. However, it is a possible explanation never the less, of the beginning of the universe, our universe being the latest expansion. The energy it consists of may be eternal.
There again, I'm being called to dinner. Rabbit in muscat I believe, so the contest between unprovable speculations can wait while I get to gnaw on a deceased wine-sodden orycolagus cuniculus.
@sometimestheycomebackanyway@xanga - Arbitrarily calling something God and then using its existence as a Q.E.D. for God's existence isn't a clever (nor valid) argument for God. If I were to define God as a taco and point out that tacos exist, I wouldn't be proving polytheism either.
The plain fact is that we know very little about the origins of the universe. Everything we know about causality and existence breaks down at that point, so causal arguments for God aren't exactly applicable.
Thusly saying that there was a first cause is a false premise and arbitrarily saying that it was God is an definist fallacy (which based on an argument from ignorance anyway).
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - The definition of God as first cause is not arbitrary it is precise.