Monday, 21 November 2011
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Isn't It Odd?
The following is taken from CommonPrayer.netDeath-row inmate Mumia Abu-Jamal has asked, “Isn’t it odd that Christendom — that huge body of humankind that claims spiritual descent from the Jewish carpenter of Nazareth — claims to pray to and adore a being who was a prisoner of Roman power, an inmate of the empire’s death row? That the one it considers the personification of the Creator of the Universe was tortured, humiliated, beaten, and crucified on a barren scrap of land on the imperial periphery, at Golgotha, the place of the skull? That the majority of its adherents strenuously support the state’s execution of thousands of imprisoned citizens? That the overwhelming majority of its judges, prosecutors, and lawyers — those who condemn, prosecute, and sell out the condemned — claim to be followers of the fettered, spat-upon, naked God?”
What are your thoughts on this? If Mumia Abu-Jamal was saying this directly to you in his prison cell how would you respond? Does the incarnation change the way we approach ethical issues such as the death penalty? If so, how?
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Comments (47)
on the other hand, one can argue that Jesus' execution is the single greatest thing humankind has ever done. if he hadn't been executed, he wouldn't have been resurrected.
Capital punishment is a legitimate political argument. But Abu-Gamal is a Muslim. And the punishment for capital murder under sharia is death.
So for Abu-Gamal to guilt trip Christians about the death penalty using the Bible is rank, obscene hypocrisy and gross disrespect.
Imagine a duly convicted Christian murderer in an Arab prison guilt tripping Muslims about their legal system using the Koran. The entire world would laugh.
This is an example of an unrepentant, evil human being literally acting like Satan. Ironically, the Devil quoting Holy Scripture in order to save his guilty hide is the best argument yet for the death penalty.
The immediate difference between Abu-Jamal and Jesus Josephson is that the later was not convicted of murdering a legionnaire or Temple soldier.
I don't think it's odd at all. Seems quite biblical, in fact.
"For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." Romans 13:4.
That's just one verse, of course, but I welcome others to check out the context for themselves.
Was Paul wrong in his thinking? Should the state not use its God given authority? Should the state sheath the sword? Is it no longer an agent of wrath? Have we discovered a new ethic that the apostle failed to notice? If it is wrong to execute, then isn't also wrong to incarcerate? Prison can be a hellish place.
I think there are plenty of opportunities for Christians to seek change. If someone is wrongly convicted, we should seek their release. We should support groups that minister to those in prison. We should seek prison reform, court reform, etc. There are many injustices in our justice system.
I don't take issue
againstthe death penalty- that power has actually been granted to the government by God, to execute judgment as it sees fit (whom, btw, they will answer to God for the way in which they exercise their authority).
Where I take issue is with Christians who seem or give the appearance of eagerly and joyfully desiring the death of anyone- no matter how wicked. God's very own Word says that He doesn't delight in such things (neither does that mean that justice will or should be withheld from evildoers).
So, the incarnation of Christ, and His subsequent death and resurrection, do change how I view "ethical issues". I think we should be laboring with every ounce of strength within us to see as many as will hear God's word with faith come to salvation. I don't think we should spend our time lobbying for or against the death penalty (let the courts take care of the courts and the church take care of the church).
@RevoHor@xanga - @homealivein45@xanga - @Lovegrove@xanga -
@YourOuterCritic@xanga - @FearofGodandPerfectLove@xanga -
You are talking about Jesus, right? He's the one who loves you in the midst of your own sin. Who comforts you when you're scared...and saves you. Remember the last time you heard that still small voice? Is He that speaks to you really FOR killing ...is that His best hope for humanity?
He's the one that said He came to give life (Jn 3:16)...not to take it. and Paul offers suggestion on how to find true life (1 Tim 6:18-20). I'm merely reminding you guys, of who you already know!
Jesus stood up to the political leaders of His day when He noticed a person convicted (caught in the very act) of a capital offense (Jn 8:2-12). He didn't argue convincing logic, nor work to build consensus, nor did He have voting rights, nor was He even a citizen. We as citizens not only have rights to influence public policy, but there's risk to our common well being if we citizen's don't stand up and express our own convictions.
But most telling for me as to Jesus' thoughts on capital punishment is when He was unjustly convicted and hung on a cross to die, He did not rain down fire and brimstone, nor did He call down an army of angels to protect or punish. It seems to me those who would attempt to kill a loving God deserve death...I think even more than a man convicted of murdering another man, but our God did not kill them. He forgave them, even as He suffered at their hands.
...and as @too_pretty_to_die@xangarecognizes, Jesus uses all things to bring hope and salvation to those He loves...and the Jesus I know loves everyone, with an unconditional and abiding love. And I pray I'll, all the days of my life, be soft-hearted enough to be reminded of who I am...and who God is by any one who speaks truth, whether prisoner, slave, pastor, Muslim, or Christian.
@god_stories@xanga - "You are talking about Jesus, right?"
No. I was talking about the apostle Paul.
@YourOuterCritic@xanga - Heh! You quoted the apostle Paul, yes. btw - isn't it interesting that Paul who wrote the verse you quote was killed (according to church tradition) by the government of his day...supposedly beheaded?
How do you interpret his words, given that?
@god_stories@xanga - An argument against capital punishment based on Christian values is not found with an unrepentant Muslim murderer whose only objective is to save his own skin by twisting Holy Scripture.
Hmmn, last I remember, Jesus was innocent. And I mean 100% totally innocent, and had nothing in his heart but love for his captors and tormentors. He went through his trial and ordeal with nothing but love and forgiveness on his lips and in his heart. Even as he breathed his last breath, He beseeched the Father to "forgive them, for they know not what they do"... far cry from the thousands of convicted criminals that are put to death worldwide. And especially in the U.S., where the appeals can run 30 years or more, and where there is absolutely no doubt about the guilt of a criminal on death row. DNA has put an end to that possibility, thankfully.
@homealivein45@xanga - you've said a lot in a single sentence.
But why do you think this man doesn't have anything of value to say to the world? Is it because of his status (a prisoner), his culture (Muslim), his choices (seeming lack of repentance for murder), his background (no known Christian training), his seeming motivation (to save his own skin)?
@Ork58@xanga - As you say Jesus forgave those that murdered Him...even as He suffered. Should we as His followers not then consider the way He laid before us? Its pretty radical...not only did He not kill those that murdered Him...He forgave them.
I wonder what that would look like for us as a nation?
@god_stories@xanga - A Muslim doesn't get to define what Christianity means for Christians. How do you think Muslims would react if you tried to define the Koran for them?
I had my answer in one second of thought: Jesus Christ was innocent of all crimes, of all sin. His death was unjust but the death of murderers is called just by the God of the Bible, God the Father, who is one with the Son.
@god_stories@xanga - In that, then, did Jesus condone their behaviors? Were there consequences for their behaviors of crucifying Him, and the untold thousands of executions that were exacted on innocents?
Yes, the world would be a far better place if we all acted as Jesus did. But even in His time, when He was here on earth, he was faced with the same challenges we are. Greed. Lust. Power. Corruption. Evil. He showed us how to combat it on a personal level, and even as a church. But did He tell us we would eradicate it? No. Same challenge as having "poor" among us. In the U.S., we have taken from the rich and given to the "poor" for over 70 years, and the result is we have more poor than ever, and more contempt for the poor by the working class and the rich. We are tired of having our taxes raised to fund yet another "program for the poor", which seems to do nothing more than line the pockets of some politician and buy him/her votes. Jesus himself told us the poor would always be with us. He admonishes us to be kind to the poor, to make provisions for them, but He never promises we will eradicate poverty. And we won't. As long as there are those who will not or can not work for themselves, are happy with handouts or living a life of poverty, then they will be among us. You can lead a horse to water....
@homealivein45@xanga - How do you know YOU'RE not the devil and Mumia the spat-upon God?
@homealivein45@xanga - The punishment under the codes set out in the Bible for adultery is death, too. We obviously don't live in a world where a statement such as this man's is insane or hypocritical, and that you have basically decried him simply for being Muslim and calling Christians out on certain hypocrisies is closed-minded and foolish.
@YourOuterCritic@xanga - Actually if you look at the original greek word for Sword actually means "small dagger" which would have been carried and used by tax collectors to coerce people in the paying. It was not the word for a sabre which would have been used for executions.
While yes governments may have authority to punish and incarcerate, the biblical death penalty as noted in the old testament is very different than what we have in America today...in fact they look nothing like each other. I could go through a litany of examples and reasons, but it would be easier to just recommend the book The Biblical Truth about America's Death Penalty.
And so we're clear here, Mumia is more than likely innocent, so for all of you who are saying he deserves death, at least learn the facts of the case.
@RevoHor@xanga - I would think you had a point if any of the things you listed accurately reflected how the death penalty is used in the US.
Victims-They are victimized over and over again through every appeal. APPEALS ARE NECESSARY because we've already executed at least 6 innocent people since 1997, we don't need too execute anymore innocent people. So every trial, they have to relive the details. The killer gets his name in the paper and the victim is forgotten while governor's, attorney generals and prosecutors get to use the death penalty and them seeking revenge as a tool to get re-elected. We also spend millions and millions too seek execution (at least 3 times what it would cost to keep them in prison for life), while victims struggle to get the services they need because the govt is spending taxpayer money trying to kill people instead of help people. Don't believe me? My friend Miriam submitted this op-ed as a victim's sister:
http://www.omaha.com/article/20111117/NEWS0802/711179987
Public Safety-The DP does NOTHING to make us safer. In the modern era NO ONE has escaped from death row, so prison is sufficient to keep killers away from the public. Besides G-D almost always chose exile (particularly in the cases of the most famous murders, cain, moses, etc.) over execution. Finally if it the DP were a deterrent we would see the lowest murder rates in states that have the death penalty. The fact is that states that have the DP have higher murder rates for the most part than states to have no death penalty.
The way we carry out the DP in America is in no way similar to the DP in the Old Testament. It was almost never used and there were all sorts of safe guards against executing innocents that don't exist in our system. There is also the fact that G-D commanded us to defend the cause of the poor, yet 95% of those on death row were below the poverty line when they were put on death row, even though statistically richer people still commit about half the murders. Christians don't seem too upset about the racial disparity that exists in the DP either. The fact is that our system is designed so that if you are black and you kill a white person (particuarly a white female) you are 8 times more likely to get a death sentence than a white person killing a black person. Also the death penalty is only sought in 15% of the counties nation-wide, thought murders happen more like 90% of the counties nation-wide.
If Christians want to be all for the death penalty, because "it's the right thing to do" then you all better start consistently demanding that it be carried out every single time. But you won't because that would completely bankrupt our government!
@FoxLisk@xanga - The Bible contains a lot of history. And what was law 1000s of years ago is not the law today. Name one country today where Jews and Christians condone capital punishment or stoning for adultery.
So saying that the Bible condones capital punishment for adultery is a false statement.
On the other hand, there are Islamic countries that stone women, but not men, for adultery.
That's even more reason to discredit a Muslim for telling Christians how to interpret the Gospel teachings of Christ. Muslim actually practice what you erroneously say the Bible teaches: capital punishment for women adulterers.
@phoebester@xanga - Ha! Ha! Good question. My mom always said I was a little devil.
Satan is known by Jews and Christians to be a liar. He lied to Adam and Eve and deceived them into committing the Original Sin.
When a wicked, unrepentant murderer such as Abu-Jamal uses Scripture as an argument against capital punishment it is obvious that he is lying.
That's because Abu-Jamal is Muslim. By what authority does a Muslim tell Christians the meaning of the Gospel?
Another indication that Abu-Jamal is a liar is his purpose. A Christian preaches the Gospel out of love for Christ. Abu-Jamal is "preaching" the Gospel to save his own skin from being executed. And worse still, as a Muslim, Abu-Jamal doesn't even believe in Christ's gospel.
Being deceptive in the way he is, Abu-Jamal is modeling the very behavior that Satan used in the Garden. He's using God's own words for evil purposes.
@thepurpleporpoise - "And so we're clear here, Mumia is more than
likely innocent, so for all of you who are saying he deserves death, at
least learn the facts of the case." So you were there? You know firsthand he is innocent, you have all the facts? or are you just spouting off your opinion, and trying to pass it off for fact?
In your reply to Revohor, your second and third paragraphs decrying the death penalty do accurately describe what is wrong with it. The fact is, it is screwed up precisely because of bleeding heart liberals like yourself. The endless appeals, the constant re-traumatization of the victims family, the usage of the situation for some politicians purpose or to further an agenda is all too true. If the death penalty were carried out quickly and swiftly, as intended, it is indeed a deterrent. I guarantee you there are no repeat offenders, unlike the criminals you liberals love to release on "humanitarian" or "compassionate" grounds, only to watch them steal, molest, and kill again and again.
There has always been disparity between wealthy accused and impoverished accused, this is nothing new. We, as a society, must continually strive to correct this, but that does not mean we discontinue it until we perfect it.
When you say the death penalty is sought in only 15% of counties, and we have murders in 90% of counties, that is due in large part to the fact the death penalty is restricted to unusually heinous crimes, or special circumstances. Why do you choose the county demographic? Because it has the widest disparity and furthers your agenda of preaching it's unjustness? Why don't you look at the larger metro areas, and tell me what the ratio of murderer-victim race is, you won't come up with the black vs. white argument. Or better yet, any where in the central U.S., where the ratio of whites vs. minorities is traditionally very low. Whites murder other whites far more often than minorities murdering whites.
You also fail to mention that the vast majority of murders arise out of domestic violence, and often your mixed race couples are in the lower socio-economic and educational level groups, and these are precisely the demographics with the highest incidence of murder from domestic violence. When a black man murders his white live-in lover, does it make that a hate crime? Or is it just plain murder arising from domestic violence? You can twist statistics to do whatever you want, and your attempt is certainly transparent.
As an ex-Corrections Officer, I worked with the arrested on a daily basis, from misdemeanors to murder. I saw firsthand the micro-societies in jail, the vicious circle of drugs, alcohol abuse, poverty, and worst of all, ignorance and the entitlement mentality, the idea that "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine too, if it I want it". No respect for property, for the rights of others, for themselves. This type of ignorance is generational, and extremely hard to derail. I often had more members of certain families on the inside than on the outside. Wasn't uncommon to see Mom, Grandmom and daughter in the same cell block. Bad checks, drugs, prostitution..they'd all sit and laugh about it, bitch about their men who were trying to keep things patched together on the outside til they got out, or hocking their stuff at the local pawnshop to get money for bail, booze, or broads while they were on ice...
And furthermore, what's with the G-D thing? Are you so special you cannot say the word "God" in reference to the Almighty? You further set yourself apart from the masses by employing special words or refusing to utter "The Name above all Names"? The word "God" is a title, not the personal name of the Almighty. Bible teaches us that YHWH, or a variation of it, was the direct reference to the Almighty, and in primitive society was thought to be so holy as to not be able to be spoken, lest you be struck dead. That is ignorance and fear speaking, not love. Read John 3:16 again. You really think God would allow His only human son to be crucified and destroyed by us, if He didn't love us and want to provide a pathway to Himself, a way for us to remove the burden of sin and become clean in His presence, and then turn around and condemn us if we even dare to utter his name? Ridiculous.
When you try to limit God like that, you put Him in a box and make Him seem very petty...God is wiser than we can even imagine, not narrow-minded and small as you would paint him.
Most of the other posters have it right, even Satan uses scripture to deceive, and a Muslim using scripture to deceive Christians is a great example. My prayer for Mumia is that he receive understanding about the Bible and it's message, and convert from the false, hate filled Islam to Christianity, where Christ preached the Good News of eternal salvation, that he be forgiven by God and allowed to enter Heaven. That is true compassion. Not to excuse his behavior here on earth, nor to condone his following of the false prophet Muhammed. If you were a true Christian, that would be your prayer for this guy too, one of redemption and salvation, not one of defending his position.
@Ork58@xanga - Hey, what I'm hearing you say is that even if we forgave murderers there would still be murder so it doesn't make sense to forgive murderers. Am I hearing you correctly?
...and to make your point I hear you use the example of giving to the poor. We as a nation give lots to the poor and we still have the poor. And it seems that you suggest the only way to get rid of the poor is to figure out some way to motivate the poor to get a job...and that likely is impossible since Jesus said you'll always have the poor. So maybe you're ultimately suggesting why bother at all.
Am I hearing you correctly?
@homealivein45@xanga - you're comment reminds me of the Red Sox and Yankee rivalry. Why do I love the Red Sox? Dang, what's not to love they're awesome...and btw I live near Boston.
And the Yankee's? They suck!
Are you ready to become a Red Sox fan? Maybe, but even if I gave you all the stats and names of all the players, blah, blah. You likely wouldn't start rooting for the Bosox, unless you were already a fan. And that's how selecting teams work...that concept is called 'tribalism.' An aspect of tribalism is the belief among its members that our tribe is great and the other tribe is awful...its a leftover survival mechanism and is really based upon fear!
So back to Christianity vs Islam. If I'm on a journey of personal discovery than any ONE can offer me something of value along the journey. However, if my attention is focused on supporting the tribe, than I'm unable to hear anything anyone in another tribe might say.
And for ancient tribes that approach helped the tribe stay together to fight and survive, which WAS good. It didn't help to build bridges between tribes or bring peace to the region...or support personal growth (ideas stagnate in small groups...and flourish when there's freedom for exchange of ideas).
What say you?
@god_stories@xanga - Nice try. Great logic, wrong direction. Bible admonishes us to help the poor and needy, while also explaining they will always be with us. That does not excuse us from helping, nor does it excuse our responsibility to help. Did Jesus just constantly give hand outs? Or did He admonish those he helped to "go and sin no more" or "get up, pick up your mat and walk"? Once He helped someone, there was an expectation to go with it. To do for yourself now, and quit begging from others. The exception to that is children, He never admonished children to do anything except be innocent children. Bible is full of countless stories of such. The only way to motivate the poor to not be poor anymore is to give them a reason not to be (self esteem?) and the tools for them to get out of poverty (job training, free or reduced cost education, etc.) when you just give something to someone, often it has little meaning or value. Example: Indian reservations. In the 70's it was thought the correct thing to do was to go onto the reservations, build nice houses for everyone, then they could live and enjoy nice things like the rest of society. Problem? They didn't respect the gift, didn't want the handout, had nothing but contempt for the white man and his "pity" for them, blame the whites of trying to absolve their own conscience by buying them off with houses. Result? Houses trashed, broken windows, torn screens, doors off, kids shitting in the corners, houses filthy, dogs running in and out. Saw it dozens of times at the local reservations northeast Kansas, Nebraska. If they earn it, they are likely to have more respect for it. Knew many Indians that made it off the reservation, got educations and good jobs, bought nice houses and cars, and treated them well. Not rocket science.