By Dean LuskIf you're the lone guy out of 300 who doesn't like to hear "Jesus" at the beginning of a football game, for Pete's sake, go
buy a $1.97 set of earplugs, you whining cheapskate.
The story is now national news. Ace news-hound and pal Leroy alerted me this morning that FOX News has given Lauderdale County High Schools, Christians, and an atheist a moment in the sun.
The man who complained about prayers over the intercom at high school football games cites the elusive "
separation of church and state" precedent in the First Amendment. Whoops! Nobody seems to have let him know that this is actually a phrase most famously
written by Thomas Jefferson (who did not participate in authoring the U.S. Constitution or the First Amendment) in 1802.
While Christ-followers may see this as a major issue, we all need to understand that
this situation has more depth -- and potential negative consequences -- than we realize. It's not simply a matter of Christians standing up for their religious rights or yet another argument about whether certain things are guaranteed in the First Amendment.
We may be on the same page so far, but if you keep reading get ready to dislike me, unfriend me on
Facebook, say I'm compromising with the world, or whatever. Think about what I have to say, though.
I have incredible problems with the implications of the Christian community's response and the double-standard it is clearly communicating.
It would be better if the local Christian community said, "We DO want Christianity to be the sanctioned public religion," because frankly, that's much more honest. A pastor is quoted in the article saying during his sermon on Sunday, "It’s very sad. I would think that
any other prayer from another religion would not receive this kind of negativity."
Really? I'll probably give him that if he's referring to
the media not being negative about other religions or public prayers. But
the Christian community would go absolutely ballistic if a small group of Hindus prayed over the intercom to Krishna or Shiva, or if a Muslim group offered prayers in Allah's name over the P.A. System.
Take the same insulted and indignant Christians in the news story and put them in that circumstance. Spend a few moments imagining their reaction.
Also from the article, referring to the pastor: "Christianity, he said, is under attack. 'It’s going on all over the place,' he said. '
You just hate for it to be coming to your doorstep.'"
But haven't we all heard sermons on
this passage? Or
this one? What about
this other one? How about when
Jesus said this? Are we seriously supposed to dread it when people attack Christianity?
Jesus says that we're supposed to be glad about it. Very glad. The rest of the Bible reiterates this. Our response is to get PO'ed, though:
"You heathens will NOT take away our 'God-given right' to worship the way we choose!" I can't find that concept anywhere in the New Testament.
The first-century Church's response to attacks was, incredibly, to go out and preach Jesus Christ and leave the defense of their "rights" to God if He saw fit.
"And now, O Lord, hear their threats, and give us, your servants, great boldness in preaching your word. Stretch out your hand with healing power; may miraculous signs and wonders be done through the name of your holy servant Jesus." After this prayer, the meeting place shook, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. Then they preached the word of God with boldness." -
Acts 4:29-31, NLT While we may feel like we're doing the right thing in the way we publicly respond and in the way we discuss this with friends or co-workers, we're often displaying repulsive hypocrisy to non-believers.
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Comments (33)
agreed.
Also praying could be found offensive to someone, just as someone saying their beliefs about wanting to decrees the human population by solent green methods(ie eat humans).
i am really, really glad i stuck it through this post.
@immoral_sensei thanks for the solidarity. I'm still thinking on the Soylent Green tie-in...
We are told in the Bible to not pray in public, yet we insist on doing so, deciding to make our own rules instead of reading what the Bible has to say about the subject. Most fundamental Christians actually would prefer a state sanctioned religion, and they know it, and they use every opportunity to push it down non Christians throats. That is the best way to keep people from truly discovering Jesus.
Separation of Church and state is made to respect all religions and favor none.
The school should not be saying prayers because it shows favoritism towards a religion and ostracizes those outside of the religious views.
That person should not have to buy earplugs nor hear the words of religion in a public area.
Views should not be placed onto anyone in a public atmosphere and you are condoning such an action.
Well, let's be honest, since when has the United States of America not been a de facto theocracy? It always has been and always will be.
Why do you think I left?
So where do we draw the line? Where do we, as Christians, continue to give ground, and where do we stop? You see, this post is as smarmy as it gets because of a couple of reasons: First, most public/state universities bow to the wishes of other religions to the exclusion of Christianity. I know this first hand because of my teaching and position at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (a.k.a. - Virginia Tech). Muslims are given a prayer room. Muslims are allowed to take off for Eid and allowed to go home for Ramadan. Christians are not allowed the same courtesies where I teach. Every other religion under the sun is allowed in campus, and allowed to celebrate their respective holidays. They can say their holiday greetings all they wish. However, Chistmas Break is now Winter Break. Easter Break is now Spring Break. We don't have Christmas Trees anymore, they're Holiday trees, and neither are Christmas Wreaths Christmas Wreaths but Holiday Wreaths, It's okay to say "Eid Mubarack", but not to say "Merry Christmas!" (it's "Happy Holidays!"). Where, Lyrical_L@xanga, do we draw the line, because if the line isn't drawn, it is Christianity that gets pushed out.
Secondly, this article misses the point due in large part to other religions being required study at many state universities. Just a few years ago, Islamic tudies were required courses for incoming freshmen at UNC-Chapel Hill and NC State. Yet when one wants to pass out Gideons' New Testaments, the red tape is endless. If one student requests a Bible class, he is laughed out of the school, whereas a professor daring to suggest such a class be taught may just get a visit from the ACLU. All of these aren't isolated incidences. Transcendental Meditation, Hindu prayer in the forms of Yoga, Buddhist Chanting, Confucian Ideology, and New Age Meditation and Philosophy are now pretty well entrenched into Public School. Yet, if one dare propose a Bible Club on campus, the lawsuits begin, the ACLU is called up, and any teacher involved is harangued and fired.
This is all why, Lyrical_L@xanga: this is why Christians get up in arms when someone dares take away the right of prayer in Jesus' Name. When the state funded Madrass Schools, whe nthe required classes for TM, Islamic Prayer, Qu'Ran Reading, and Hindu Meditation are forbade from school just as the Name of Jesus Christ (except as used in profanity), then maybe we can have a rational discussion. Until then, don't try to forbid my right to public prayer at a sporting event, because such as myself will turn to the United States Constitution for redress....
@JandJinJapan@xanga - I do not forbid you, but the law does and does so justly.
Now if you were to look at this problem rationally, what you should be arguing for is not the promotion or defense of Christianity but the equality of all religion which is definitely okay with me. However, I cannot agree with this post because you show no respect for other religions but your own and truly want to place a belief on another person. Now would I want to forbid a prayer to be placed on people who do not follow that religion, YES.
What truly puzzles me about your arguments is that you wish to do unto others what is being negatively put unto you which is the promotion of other people's beliefs unto you. What should be happening is that no religion should be favored. That's the real problem.
The real problem is that other religions are being favored over others. The solution is that no religion should be favored over others. Now I am sorry if you think that Buddhism and Muslim are given special treatment. I would not give special treatment to any religion and that would include your religion as well.
What you should be fighting for is not the defense of religion but the equality of all religions and in order to be equal we should not allow favoritism in the public eye.
And your assertions show how very little you have read my post, Lyrical_L@xanga - How do you know for a certainty that I don't respect other religions? For you to make such a blanket statement - along with the idea that I "think" Muslims and Buddhists are given special treatment show how little you understood anything that I wrote, and that, in itself, is a tragedy. Do I want to see other religions shut down and thrown out of Virginia Tech or any other school? Of course not, but on the flip side of that coin, I*d surely like to see Christians and Christian Activities and Holidays given the same equal rights that the others on campus are given.
Here is the crux of my point: if the ACLU, People for the American Way, People for Separation of Church and State, et. al. are going to protest every time a teacher even takes a Bible to public school, where are the same people when the University of North Carolina and the University of California at Los Angeles require incoming Freshmen to take Islamic Studies? Where is Michael Newdow when an Arabic School -- paid and funded on the American Dime -- in New York City decides to make Islamic Study, Meditations of the Qu'Ran, and the Religious Standing of Mohammed required classes? When Transcendental Meditation and New Age thought and Philosophy are taught to elementary school students, where is the ACLU? After all, separation of church and state fits the New Age Church as well. How about when junior high school students are taught yoga in their gym classes? Where are the people for the American Way in this case? Why are atheist groups not up in arms about yoga which, in its very essence, teaches Hindu meditations and Hindu prayers and chants? After all, religion is religion is religion, and if one is banned, then all need to be banned. In for a penny, in for a pound, as the old saying goes.
When the Savior that I serve is resoundingly condemned because of the "feelings" of one or two non-believers, then why is there silence when the tenets of other religions are taught as a matter of requirement? You can say that people such as myself are wrong all day and all night, make gross assumptions about us, but you cannot deny that those of us have a strong point and a reason to protest ourselves when our rights -- such as a simple invocation at a sporting event -- are taken away. Perhaps we are just tired of being ridden over by the desires of a VERY tiny minority....
@JandJinJapan@xanga - I do apologize for the assertion. You are correct, I did so wrongly.
But my point still remains. You are still arguing for equality among religions, but your idea of equality is to force an idea upon people.
Yes, a teacher may bring a bible to school if the state allows it, but the teacher should not lead a prayer in a public classroom.
A prayer should not be led at a football game, like a Muslim prayer would not be said nor a Jewish prayer. We can accept the expression of religion but I will draw the line when there is a person who feels that an idea or religious perspective is being enforced onto them when they expect the environment to be open and without religion.
Yes, we respect people to form clubs in schools, I have a three religious clubs in my school for Christianity, and yes we do respect the religious Holidays like Easter and Christmas. We however call them Spring Break and Winter Break because some people are not religious and the religion should not be enforced upon them.
@JandJinJapan@xanga - I would also be careful with the assertions you make about me.
I do not say you are wrong all day and night, I am saying that while you are right about giving equal rights to religions, the actions you seek are specifically against what you are writing for.
And I do not make assumptions about "us" whoever you are. I specifically make assumptions about you (as close to factual as I can). Grouping people I believe is wrong, and judging them is also wrong.
I did not even say I was an atheist, but your assumptions have led to view me negatively so. I remain to keep an honest and open conversation in hopes of an intellectual discussion. However, with so many negative comments, emotions can get rather tricky.
@JandJinJapan@xanga - Either you're an outright liar or you don't know anything about the school you claim to work at. YOU SAID: " I know this first hand because of my teaching and position at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (a.k.a. - Virginia Tech). Muslims are given a prayer room. Muslims are allowed to take off for Eid and allowed to go home for Ramadan. Christians are not allowed the same courtesies where I teach. Every other religion under the sun is allowed in campus, and allowed to celebrate their respective holidays."
MY RESPONSE: I just went through the list, well, part of the alphabetical list of student clubs and organizations at Virginia Tech, I got tired when I hit the "I" section. Keeping in mind that I only scrolled through the letters "A" to "H", I counted 27 Christian student clubs and organizations. Of those 27 Christian clubs and organizations at V-Tech 16 of them are officially listed. And like I said, that was only going through to the "H" section. If I continued on and counted every religious club/organization at V-Tech and divided them into 2 groups; Christian and non-Christian, I'd almost be willing to bet that the number of Christian clubs/organizations would outnumber ALL the other religious clubs/organizations put together.
Furthermore, you stated that Muslims are given a prayer room and implied that Christians are not. Well, I did a search of "prayer room" on V-Tech's site and the first thing that came up was "War Memorial Chapel Prayer Room", and right below that were 2 Christian organizations stating they used that location for their ministries. Listed after those Christian entries were some rooms for Muslims to use for their daily prayers.
I wasn't about to go through the entire curriculum to find out whether or not studying any faith other than Christianity is indeed "required", you made the claim and you say you work there so it should be easy enough for you to let me know which classes of other faiths are actually required. Otherwise, I'll just assume that was just so much more bullshit.
You actually make Christians look bad. Seriously. You lie about being persecuted in an attempt to make people believe that you are not allowed to be Christian and/or that your faith is under-represented and all you want is fair representation when in reality your faith is actually over-represented in most cases.
And don't tell me that you have respect for other faiths/religions, because if you did then you would leave the followers of that faith alone and quit trying to convert them through campus crusades and foreign missions. I highly doubt that you would consider it "respectful" to be hounded by someone of another faith to convert to their faith.
Melissa___Dawn@xanga - Thank you for your reply. I just looked at this list - https://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_MakeList?genre=%25&gradonly=%25 - and guess what I found? Not only did I find your claim in error - there wasn't ONE Christian Organization under "H" - but also, there were only four -- FOUR-- up to the middle of letter "I" that were based in campus facilities. The rest were based off campus. I believe, madam, that you need to check your sources one more time.
Next, concerning the prayer room: I, too, just searched the VT website, and I found one prayer room -- relegated to the War Memorial Chapel (according to the War Memorial Chapel Site, it is an ecumenical prayer room open to all faiths) -- and FOUR Muslim Prayer rooms specifically dedicated to Muslim prayers. Again, you need to check your information. Here is the websearch I used: http://search.vt.edu/search/pages.html;jsessionid=C1F7616DD2A87D9177A97C683C51D4CE.mt-prod-2?cx=012042020361247179657%3awmrvw9b99ug&cof=FORID%3a11&ie=UTF-8&sa=Search&q=prayer+room&sitesearch=vt.edu
Concerning Islamic Classes and Virginia Tech, I never said that was the case here. Why don't you, Melissa Dawn, go back and read again what I stated?
And yes, I realize that I am not necessarily a glowing exmaple of Jesus Chrust: I have many flaws. However, I have lied about nothing. The school that I teach in here at tech -- and tech has many different schools -- turned down a request by me to teach a class whose subject was the Bible as Literature, but they gave the Muslims a room to pray in. Several teachers reuqested a vacation day for Good Friday, but were turned down....yet Chinese students and Muslims get Spring Festival and Eid respectively. If you'd like to see in persion, just say the word, and I can see to it that you are allowed to observe classes.
Finally, yes, I do respect other faiths. If I didn't, I'd not have a job at Virginia Tech. And sorry to disappoint, Ms. Dawn, but I have a mandate from the LORD Jesus Christ which states it is needful to spread the Gospel, whcih I try to do every day of my life. I don't hound people, I don't try to convert them; neither of those are my job. I am here merely to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If there are those who wish not to choose to follow the Lord, that is their choice and I respect it.
Thank you again for your reply.
Lyrical_L@xanga - Points taken. Apologies if I came off as hostile. It was not meant towards you....
Thank you for your reply....
@JandJinJapan@xanga - That is the exact list I looked at and I stated I looked through letters "A" to "H" - that means I looked through the list starting with the letter A and going through B, C, D, E, F, G and H, then I stopped and didn't go any further as I figured 27 Christian groups would be enough. I'm not sure how to tell if they are "on campus" unless that is what they mean by "officially listed", in which case of the 27 I found THROUGH the letters A TO H, 16 of them are officially listed. Either way, you stated Christian groups weren't allowed on campus and now you state there are "only 4", well, that still shows you lied. And that's 4 that start with the letter "I", go back through the list from A up to I and you will now have 31. I believe, sir, you need better reading comprehension.
As for the prayer room issue, you obviously have no idea what Muslim prayers entail. If you looked at the first Muslim prayer room list it clearly showed specific times the room was open for prayers. Muslims pray multiple times throughout the day, at specific times, kneeling to the east. If you are on one end of campus and the only Muslim prayer room is at the other end of campus you wouldn't make it there in time for the prayer. That is why there are multiple Muslim prayer rooms. Furthermore, if there is only one Christian prayer room my guess would be it isn't being used much, because I would think that if there were too many groups constantly trying to book that room and not being able to do so they would eventually add another room. In that case, it isn't the school denying Christian groups, it's that there simply isn't a lot of interest from the Christians to actually participate in the groups.
You said: "Just a few years ago, Islamic studies were required courses for incoming freshmen at UNC-Chapel Hill and NC State. Yet when one wants to pass out Gideons' New Testaments, the red tape is endless." First, you're right I missed that you weren't referring to V-Tech, I'll give you that. So please include a link of what Islamic classes are/were required study and then I'll address the issue. However, required classes/studies and passing out Bibles are 2 separate issues, they're not comparable. If you are gong into a specific field that requires you to deal with Muslims it may make complete sense to require certain classes about Islam to earn that degree, such as interpreter. I work for a hospital and we have patients from all cultures/religions and we need to know about their cultures/religions in order to serve our patients adequately.
As for you being turned down on teaching a class about the Bible, no one has any way of knowing WHY you were turned down. Can you provide actual evidence that you were turned down solely on the basis that they don't want the Bible taught? I doubt it since they have many Christian groups on and off campus, a Christian meeting/prayer room, etc. Maybe it wasn't in the budget. Maybe there wasn't enough interest from students in justifying the class. Maybe there's already one being taught. Maybe they felt you weren't simply going to teach a class about the Bible but would instead be attempting indoctrination.
And for the record, if what you said about Good Friday is true then I recommend you contact the ACLU, because believe it or not the ACLU has defended Christians in just that type of situation before. However, since I've shown that you lied about both the organizations and the prayer rooms I somehow get the feeling the rest is bullshit as well.
You claim you don't hound people, but I've checked out your site and I get the feeling that isn't really the case, however, since I have not met you personally I will assume that if you walked up to me on the street and I said I wasn't interested you would drop it and leave me alone. I'm still doubtful that would be the case though.
Melissa___Dawn@xanga - Hi, Melissa, no lies nor lying here. I visited your site too. And let me ask, since you seem so ready to pounce and accuse: Did I leave any comments on your site? Did I leave messxage after message after message? Did I subscribe to you or try to friend you? You claim I hound people, please would you define what it means to hound? Because so far, I've not hounded you, and you are a perfect candidate for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And if I didn't hound you, isn't it entirely possible that you could be wrong about my allegedly hounding other people? And if you're wrong about me hounding people, are you not also wrong, as well, about my lying? How do you know anything that I have done, asked, said, requested, or mailed to the administration of Virginia Tech? How do you know I haven't talked to my administrators who really have told me in no uncertain terms that anything overtly Christian is not allowed? You see? You DON'T know these things because you come off half-cocked. I provided a link which you say you used, but didn't know how to look up and see if Christian Organizations were off campus or not. How can you honestly say you've used that search engine? And you don't know how to use it? Yes, I looked up that site, clicked on all the Christian sites between A and I, and didn't find 31 organizations. I don't remember the exact number as I didn't count, but it wasn't anywhere close to 31 as you say. Now you can, again, accuse me of lying, but, you said yourself that you really didn't know how to use the link, so how can your word be trusted? And you didn't even provide the link in the first place: I did. It's really easty to say that it was the same site you used after I'd already posted it. Same for the search site concerning prayer rooms. I posted that site, and you made some bogus claim afterwards. Who's the liar? Who posted the resources, again? And you call me a liar? Yeah, right. Why don't you contact me when you are ready for a mature debate, and stop it with all the name-calling and gold digging.
Thanks again for your reply.
@JandJinJapan@xanga - I don't know why you posted such a lengthy reply and then turned right around and deleted it, perhaps because you realized I proved every single one of my points. At any rate, because I receive notifications on responses to my comments I will copy and paste your response here and address your points yet again. Even if you are able to keep yourself in denial, at least others will see your "logic" for what it really is. Here we go.
YOU SAID: The list I saw, perused, and took the time to look over, (being on on Virginia Tech's website) which I listed above, showed clearly which ones were located on campus and those located off campus, which ones were officially listed, and which ones weren't. The website I posted above isn't that hard nor difficult to figure out. Why not actually take a look before passing judgment?
MY RESPONSE: The list "you" used I clearly stated from the beginning was the same list I took my information from in the first place. So in reality, I actually looked over that list before you did and counted 27 Christian clubs/organizations starting with the letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H - having stopped at H believing that 27 Christian organizations with 16 of them being "officially listed" sufficed to prove that your statement that there are no Christian organizations on campus was, indeed, a lie. Your first response back to that claim was to state that you found "only 4" contained in the "I" part of the list - hmmmm, correct me if I'm wrong but 4 Christian on-campus organizations is still 4 more than none, which negates your claim that there are no Christian organizations allowed on campus at V-Tech. Not that it even matters, but I do not go to V-Tech and perusing that list I can see whether they are "officially listed" or not, I do not know how to tell whether they are "on campus" or not and asked you how to gain that information. You did not respond to that, but you did admit that there are 4 Christian on-campus organizations, which proves that there are Christian on-campus organizations. Exactly what part of this are you having trouble understanding?
YOU SAID: Concerning Muslim Prayers, yes, I am well aware as what they entail, seeing hI have taught numerous Saudi, Kuwaiti, Abu Dabi, Indonesian, and other Muslims in my classes. I am well aware of what they do, how often they pray, and where they can go and pray, and again, the link I listed for you has a hit that is from the Muslim Student Association that lists at least four rooms in which Muslims are given to pray specifically for their prayers.
MY RESPONSE: So the issue you have with this is really an issue of "numbers"? It doesn't matter to you the logic behind having Muslim prayer rooms throughout the school, which is so that Muslims don't have to sprint through campus to get to only one prayer room in time to say their daily prayers. It doesn't matter to you that more than likely if there were so many Christian groups vying for time in the one Christian room that exists the school would most likely give them another room, or 2, 3, 4 however many they actually NEEDED. All that seems to matter to you is "The Muslims got 4, we only got 1, not fair, not fair!" Having 3 more Christian rooms that basically sit unused is a waste of space. If you actually NEED more space, I'm sure the school would accommodate you just as much as they have accommodated the Muslims.
YOU SAID: I can tell you why I was turned down: I was told by two of my superiors that the class was denied because the school didn't want to offend the Muslim students. You can believe this as you wish, but it is the truth. It had naught to do with the budget, had naught to do with student interest (as at least a dozen students expressed interest), there isn't one being taught already -- at least not in the department where I teach -- and I wasn't planning on indoctrination. I was simply offering a proposition for a class that students expressed interest in taking. Unfortunately, it was turned down. Again, believe it as you wish, but the e-mail IK was sent concerning the denial of the proposed class I have long since disposed of.
MY RESPONSE: Really? Because the school didn't want to offend Muslim students? Did you request that your Bible class be REQUIRED for Muslim students? No? Then I hardly think the school is worried about offending Muslim students by teaching a class about the Bible, considering without going even halfway through the list I found 27 Christian clubs/organizations. Wouldn't the Muslim students be offended by that? Here is a list of the RELIGIOUS-AFFILIATED classes offered at V-Tech:
2REL 1014 Asian Religions2, 7****REL 1024 Judaism, Christianity, Islam2REL 1034 Religion and the Modern World2REL 1044 Religious Ethics2REL 2124 Religion in American Life2, 7REL 2234 Women, Ethics and Religion
(cross-listed with WS 2234)2REL 2414 Hebrew Bible / Old Testament
(cross-listed with JUD 2414)2****REL 2424 New Testament7REL 2464 Religion and Science
(cross-listed with AAEC 2464 and STS 2464)2REL 3024 Religion and Literature2REL 3214 Religion and Culture in India2REL 3224 Religions of China and Japan2****REL 3414 Jesus and the Gospels
(Pre: REL 2424)2****REL 3424 Paul and His Interpreters
(Pre: REL 2424)2RUS 2734 Intro. to Russian Culture and Civilization
(cross-listed with HUM 2734)7RUS 2734 Russian Culture and Civilization
(cross-listed with HUM 2734)2RUS 3424 Russian Literature in English Translation
(Pre: 2000 level ENGL course; cross-listed with ENGL 3424)
I went ahead and put 4 asteriks next to the classes that are clearly Christian-oriented. Guess what? There are 4 classes that are clearly Christian-oriented. Not to mention that a few of the other classes do not list specific religions and most likely include Christianity as well. Furthermore, if you look closely at that list Christianity is clearly represented more than any other religion. And one last thing, there is a class called "New Testament", perhaps that's why you're Bible class was turned down? The fact that a class of that nature already exists. However, I will go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt and take your word for it that you were turned down because of the reasons you stated - then should have gone to the school board, the ACLU, the Dean. You failed to follow through. If you believe so strongly in your faith and that you were in the right and they were in the wrong you had options, but you chose to do nothing. I take that back, I don't give you the benefit of the doubt because V-Tech already has a class that teaches the New Testament of the Bible.
YOU SAID: Again, I didn't lie about anything. You retorted above that Christian organizations are all over campus, and my link that I provided for you pretty much shot that idea out of the sky, as well as the prayer room thing. You have asked for links concerning the curriculum at UNC, NC State, and elsewhere that Islamic Studies were part of the core and required curriculum, but since you didn't even bother to look at the links and sites and resources I DID provide -- again which shot your little theories full of holes -- why bother? If you won't do the basic stuff, why should I do your homework for you?
MY RESPONSE: YOU provided? I was perusing those links before you mentioned them. I have done my homework and fully admitted that the ONE area I was unwilling to do the work on was pertaining to REQUIRED ISLAMIC classes, and I kindly asked you to provide a link. If such a link honestly existed that proved you right you would have JUMPED at the chance to the post the link. Alas, you refused to do so. So now I have gone and even listed straight from the V-Tech site the religious classes offered. Look at that! They offer 4 Christian religious classes and I don't see even one REQUIRED Islamic class. Now, if you want I can go right back to that V-Tech organizations list and start listing all 27 Christian clubs/organizations, however, I think you know as well as I do it's not really necessary, you've already been proven to lie.
YOU SAID: Finally, you may assume all you wish, Melissa. You can take a walk through my site and declare me to be whatever you wish. You have that freedom. The fact that I've only visited your Xanga site once, and not even left a comment ought to be some sort of evidence to you that I don't hound anyone.
MY RESPONSE: I've been to your site more than once through the years, and you have been to mine more than once and I even debated you on my site once in the past (I don't think that post is public any longer, but I will try to find it if you wish). It's not an "on-the-whim, one-visit-only" assumption by a long shot.
YOU SAID: I think you are a good person that you do your homework, and you don't suffer fools lightly. Thanks for the lively debate. Have a great weekend.
MY RESPONSE: Thanks. However, I'm confused about how in one paragraph you accuse me of not doing my homework and not reading your links (even though I was quoting from those very links before you even mentioned them) to saying that I do my homework. No offense, but you seem to contradict yourself all over the place. I have provided all the information from the very links you stated to research - you obviously have lied. That is why I don't suffer fools lightly.
@JandJinJapan@xanga - Oh you have got to be kidding me. Unlike you, I will actually admit when I am wrong - it wasn't you who was at my site and left comments, unless you used to have an account with the name "JadedJanissary". I fully admit I mixed you up with someone else and will retract my section dealing with you visiting my site/comments. I was wrong.
However, everything else I posted can be easily accessed directly from the links YOU provided.
YOU SAID: Hi, Melissa, no lies nor lying here. I visited your site too. And let me ask, since you seem so ready to pounce and accuse: Did I leave any comments on your site? Did I leave messxage after message after message? Did I subscribe to you or try to friend you? You claim I hound people, please would you define what it means to hound? Because so far, I've not hounded you, and you are a perfect candidate for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And if I didn't hound you, isn't it entirely possible that you could be wrong about my allegedly hounding other people? And if you're wrong about me hounding people, are you not also wrong, as well, about my lying?
MY RESPONSE: I just took complete responsibility for the mistake I made about you visiting my site/leaving comments. However, just because I made that one mistake hardly means I am wrong about everything and you did not lie about anything. Again, YOU provided the actual links that I took my information from, information that proved there are several Christian on-campus organizations at V-Tech, that there are no "required" Islamic classes, and there are at least 4 Christian-oriented classes offered, including one all about the Bible. You lied.
YOU SAID: How do you know anything that I have done, asked, said, requested, or mailed to the administration of Virginia Tech? How do you know I haven't talked to my administrators who really have told me in no uncertain terms that anything overtly Christian is not allowed? You see? You DON'T know these things because you come off half-cocked. I provided a link which you say you used, but didn't know how to look up and see if Christian Organizations were off campus or not. How can you honestly say you've used that search engine? And you don't know how to use it? Yes, I looked up that site, clicked on all the Christian sites between A and I, and didn't find 31 organizations. I don't remember the exact number as I didn't count, but it wasn't anywhere close to 31 as you say. Now you can, again, accuse me of lying, but, you said yourself that you really didn't know how to use the link, so how can your word be trusted? And you didn't even provide the link in the first place: I did. It's really easty to say that it was the same site you used after I'd already posted it. Same for the search site concerning prayer rooms. I posted that site, and you made some bogus claim afterwards. Who's the liar? Who posted the resources, again? And you call me a liar? Yeah, right. Why don't you contact me when you are ready for a mature debate, and stop it with all the name-calling and gold digging.
MY RESPONSE: You're really going to make me actually go through and list the Christian organizations? And you say I'm the one who is too lazy to do the homework. Okay, from the link YOU provided here are 27 Christian clubs/organizations going from A THROUGH H at V-Tech:
https://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=2395&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=2146&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=2142&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=2013&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1840&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1816&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1065&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1090&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1928&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1293&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1101&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1111&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=2532&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1612&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1110&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1135&BUTTON_IN2=Submithttps://banweb.banner.vt.edu/ssb/prod/hzsksorg.P_ProcOrgs?genre=%25&org_code=1136&BUTTON_IN2=Submit
Is that enough for you? This encompasses all the ones that start with the letters A, B, and C. Do I REALLY have to list them all or I have made my point? And furthermore I fully admitted to not knowing how to find out if they were on or off campus and I actually asked for your help. Your idea of help was to rudely insult me as being too lazy to do the homework myself, even though I clearly demonstrated I am more than willing to do the homework myself and that I had run into a glitch I didn't know the answer to, could you please help me. You refused to point out the answer even though you obviously knew the answer. Rather than enlightening me to the truth, you decided it made you look better if I were not able to figure it out - even though you had already admitted that there were at least 4 on-campus Christian organizations which right there showed up your lie.
Name-calling and gold-digging? Gold-digging? Am I getting money for this? Didn't think so. As for name-calling, I called you a liar and I proved your lies, I'm stating the truth and I guess that bothers you. I actually asked for your help when I couldn't figure something out and you rudely dismissed me as lazy. Your true colors are showing and they aren't very pretty.
BTW, the links above are taken directly from a copy/paste of the link YOU provided - so yeah, I told the truth when I said I was getting the information from the very same link. Why don't you come back and debate when you are willing to actually tell the truth? Oh yeah, that's right, "lying for God" isn't a sin, right?
Melissa___Dawn@xanga - Have a blesed weekend....
@JandJinJapan@xanga - If you're not lying and you're so absolutely certain that you are in the right, why on earth do you keep responding to me, and then deleting your response, ensuring that I get it in email but no one else reading the comments on here actually sees your responses full of lies?
Furthermore, you're right, something went wrong in my copy and pasted and it's not going to the information. However, I used YOUR link to dig up the information, so if you honestly can't see what is right in front of you, which would be 27 Christian organizations at V-Tech just going up to the letter "H", then you are BLIND.
To go back to your first comment, here it is verbatim and in quotes: "First, most public/state universities bow to the wishes of other religions to the exclusion of Christianity. I know this first hand because of my teaching and position at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (a.k.a. - Virginia Tech). Muslims are given a prayer room. Muslims are allowed to take off for Eid and allowed to go home for Ramadan. Christians are not allowed the same courtesies where I teach. "
You CLEARLY stated that other religions are given precedence over Christianity and the Christianity is EXCLUDED. BULLSHIT! I clearly did the research from YOUR link that listed 27 Christian organizations at V-Tech. YOU ARE A LIAR! If you weren't, you would actually leave your response on this site instead of posting it just long enough for me to get it in email and then deleting it. Give me a break! I know a lot of people on the Interwebz are idiots - I AM NOT ONE OF THEM!
YOU SAID: What I actually said is that in the school I teach, I proposed a Bible as literature class, and was turned down out of fear of insulting and offending the Muslims. And again, -- you know, its almost as if you didn't read a word I posted -- I don't rush off to the courts to try and get my way. Why? All lawsuits do in cases like this is show the person suing to be frivilous, unfounded in their stances, or glory/fame seeking, whcih is why the ACLU is still in business, to be honest. I chosoe to go a different route. so what if my proposed class doesn't make it? Big deal. I'll just find a different way to teach the Bible, as God tends to open doors in different directions. Maybe that&'s what people do in minnestoa: I can't get what I want, so I'll run off to court and call up the ACLU. Where I come from, we generally let water pass under the bridge, and such is the casde with the bible class I proposed that was turned down.
MY RESPONSE: Again, bullshit! You proposed a Bible class, you forget to mention that V-Tech already has a Bible class. You say you don't rush off to court because in cases like this it is shown that lawsuits like that are frivolous. BECAUSE THEY ARE! You are claiming Christianity is excluded at V-Tech when Christianity is actually the most represented religion at V-Tech. Boo-hoo they wouldn't let you teach a class about the Bible BECAUSE they ALREADY HAVE A CLASS FOR THAT. You stated in another deleted response that you long ago threw away the papers declining your proposition - how convenient that you disposed of the evidence that would have proven you were right, if you ever were right.
Your statement here: " I'll just find a different way to teach the Bible, as God tends to open doors in different directions." That statement clearly shows that you should not be teaching at ANY public facility WHATSOEVER! You are biased and a liar for your god. If you mean that you will find a way to indoctrinate students at V-Tech, you are in for a rude awakening, I may just make a call to V-Tech and point out this statement you have posted publicly. You were NOT hired by V-Tech to spread your religious ideology.
No, it's not Minnesota that runs off to lawyers because they can't get what they want. What I proposed, being that the law itself is my passion, was that if you truly were discriminated against you SHOULD fight it - you are saying it's no big deal which further leads me to believe you were lying all along, you don't want to fight it because you know damn well you can't win - because you LIED.
And AGAIN, I ALREADY APOLOGIZED for mistaking you for someone else, everyone who reads this site can clearly see I took the higher road, admitted when I was wrong and apologized. You constantly deleting your responses shows quite clearly to everyone here you haven't got a leg to stand on because you're obviously terrified to let everyone else see the bullshit you've been spewing because all they have to do verify the FACTS I have posted is click the link YOU provided. YOU provided the link that provides the FACTS that I have posted - yes, you look exactly like the liar you are.
Melissa___Dawn@xanga - Maybe I do it because I find it so ironic that you call me "a liar", then get so unhinged with my responses to the point that you have to repost everything I've deleted in the first place, and then bother again to answer each one point by point, minute detail by minute detail (not to mention repeating yourself ad. infenetum). If I'm such the liar that you're trying to make me out to be, Melissa, why bother? Why go through all the trouble? Why not just let go? After all, if I'm a liar in your book, why the need to post, and post, and post about it to the Nth degree? Why not just move on?
At any rate, I'll agree to disagree with you and leave off. Have a great weekend....
@JandJinJapan@xanga - Are you serious? You respond to me, but your own response is apparently so off in your own opinion that you turn right around and delete it. Yes, I addressed your posts point by point, quite an honorable thing to do in a debate actually. I addressed every single on of your points literally point by point and yet you still content you did not lie when you clearly stated that Christianity is not represented at V-Tech and I clearly showed that Christianity is actually OVER-REPRESENTED at V-Tech. Again, you are clearly not teaching (supposedly) at V-Tech to promote knowledge, you, by your admission, are there to promote your delusion of a god. You do NOT belong at V-Tech. You do NOT promote knowledge, you promote your god and only your god at the expense of true knowledge. If what I say is a lie, how come anyone can click on the link YOU provided and prove YOU wrong, not me? You are a coward, you lie for your god who is supposed to be omniscient but apparently still needs mere mortals to LIE about him to get followers. Promote real education or LEAVE YOUR JOB because you are a DISGRACE to V-Tech!
Melissa___Dawn@xanga - Would you please read the following article?
http://jandjinjapan.xanga.com/756668577/a-response---melissadawnxanga-at-revelife/
Thank you....
@JandJinJapan@xanga - Yoga is not always an act of prayer. In most places here in the US it is treated as exercise and stretching, with deep breathing exercises and no mention of prayer. If the spiritual side of the practice of yoga were taught in US schools, parents would be angry and immediately responsive, especially christians. Many christians I have spoken with on the subject of yoga see it as a demonic, insidious form of communication; and with the devil, not a Hindu or Buddhist deity. Look it up online and you'll see all manner of ridiculousness regarding the role of yoga in the lives of christians, and the overwhelming condemnation of it, even as a healthy physical practice.
In fact, it had to be spiritually sanitized and utterly reworked in order to be used in the schools here due to poor, downtrodden christians and their tender sensibilities.
If it were taught as anything other than a form of exercise in public schools there would be (and already has been) blowback. To experience the spiritual side of it in the US you have to seek out private residences and businesses that teach all of the principles. You will not find public school children offering up prayers to Buddha or Vishnu as part of the PE class in the United States.
To even use yoga as an argument to support the christian belief that they are a persecuted minority here in the US (which you are not, it's impossible to persecute a 78-85% majority) is patently ridiculous.
@Melissa___Dawn@xanga - Haha! You busted out the fat bald paranoid idiot and he's calling you a liar? So typical him. He's ridiculous, and, you're right, an embarrassment to his school. You send a link to this page and his blog to the school administration. Maybe they'll think twice about keeping him around.
@JandJinJapan@xanga - In response to the apology offered on JandJinJapan's site.
I'm sorry, but to me this comes across more like an attempt to save face than an actual, sincere apology. After going back and forth in the debate, with you constantly deleting your responses, it seem ludicrous to me that all you had to do was explain your actual position at V-Tech to clear up the "miscommunication" and instead you continued to argue. You obviously knew that I had no idea what your position at V-Tech was, so when I addressed your points where you mentioned only that V-Tech was excluding Christians, I quite rightly pointed out that was not true. Instead of explaining your actual position in a special program at V-Tech at this point, you continued to deny the existence of the 27 Christian clubs/organizations I mentioned were listed in the link you provided. Not once did you say "Yes, but the students in the special program I'm involved in do not have access to those clubs/organizations." In fact, you outright denied those clubs/organizations even existed. Furthermore, now you have explained the special program you're involved in, but still you have not given any evidence whatsoever that this program requires religious teachings of other faiths to the exclusion of Christianity. Show me the evidence that in this program these students are required to take classes or participate in ceremonies of any other religion but completely denied access to Christian-affiliated classes/ceremonies. That was your statement all along and yet no evidence whatsoever has been presented that backs up your claim. In this apology you state that some Chinese students attempted to have spring festival recognized as a holiday and were denied. In the comments over on Revelife you listed Spring Festival as one of the recognized holidays. "Several teachers requested a vacation day for Good Friday, but were turned down....yet Chinese students and Muslims get Spring Festival and Eid respectively."