Monday, 03 October 2011
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Tongues and Interpretation: A Gift for Us to Use
When I can't find the answers I need, I pray in the Spirit to receive them directly from God.The Apostle Paul wrote about this in 1st Corinthians 14. 13-15. “…let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and (then) I will also pray with the understanding.”
The one must follow the other.
The gifts of unknown tongues and interpretations are ours to be used. When I pray in spiritual language -- mere ecstatic utterances which are meaningless to the mind -- my carnal mind is blocked from trying to figure things out mentally, but my spirit is opened to receive understanding from His Spirit. Then when I open my mouth and begin to pray in my own, known language of English, the words which flow out of my mouth inform my own mind of the understanding which the Holy Spirit has just shared with my spirit.
I learned this late in my life and have used it often since.
Have you ever spoken in tongues? Have you ever interpreted tongues?
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- From: JerusalemHill
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- About Me: This site is intended to exchange ideas with other Christians. I have another, older Xanga site intended to exchange ideas with anyone and everyone = @onjerusalemhill See http://www.jerusalemhill.org. I'm About Following Him, Listening to Him, Obeying Him. Everything else is barely relevant. Oh, the name? See Revelation 3:12.
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Comments (26)
To the Author ---- I love how you ADDED a word to the verse, thereby changing it's meaning. the (THEN) does not belong there. It's not an IF / THEN proposal. Paul is stating that he will pray with his spirit AND WITH His understanding. That changes your entire interpretation... cause he's not talking about a prayer language, he's talking about praying with comprehension.
Look back to Romans 8.... if the spirit prays in groanings that "Cannot" be uttered (expressed, as the NIV states it).... then please explain to me how you are thereby giving it expression. If even the Spirit can't express them, and they are mere groanings... then where is this spiritual language you're referring to?
@JulieMillerFan@xanga - Totally agree.
@musterion99@xanga - I honestly thought I would be starting a firestorm with that comment, but it harkens back to my "What's wrong with American Christianity" posts from April (Pt 2: Wiki-Bible-Pedia or "What's wrong with MY interpretation?") All too often we drop-kick centuries of understanding in favor of the flavor of the moment --- or just assume that our opinions really should have been scripture, God just forgot to ask us before he had the book closed. I honestly wonder what Jesus is going to think of His Church when he returns..... but then He said it best.
When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?
Ouch. To me, that is the scariest verse in all of scripture... and it comes back to how greatly we've redesigned, redefined and re-constructed Christianity into whatever we wish. Just another idol.... named "Jesus". I mean no offense to you, Musterion, I'm not making these comments AT you, just saddened by all these things in general.
And to the original poster --- I mean you no disrespect by my initial comment.... but you really shouldn't be putting words into God's mouth. When you change the meaning (by addition or subtraction), and you post it up as teaching, then you are assuming the role of prophet and pretending to speak for God saying things he did not say. That is a VERY dangerous position to take.
@JulieMillerFan@xanga -
I honestly thought I would be starting a firestorm with that commentJust depends on who reads it. I've had these discussions before with those that disagree.
When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?
Yeah, it's a good question but Jesus doesn't say he won't find faith when he returns. But it should keep us on our toes.
@JulieMillerFan@xanga - thank u. and agreed
I pray in tongues. Also, one time at a small meeting, someone got up and felt that they had a word for me personally, but that they were supposed to speak in tongues, and that someone in the audience would have an interpretation. They prayed in tongues, and while they were just praying I felt the presence of God extremely strong to the point that I was in tears. Then a girl came up with an interpretation and it was such a powerful message that I really needed to hear and directly correlated to my life at the time. I've also seen people interpret tongues many different times, which is pretty cool. One of the leaders at my church speaks a kind of spanish/portugese language when he speaks in tongues, and while on a mission trip to South America, people could simply understand his tongues because it was basically their language, even though he had no idea what he was saying. pretty cool.
@JulieMillerFan@xanga - I think you were right about one thing: I should not have inserted "(then)" into the passage of scripture to make my point. I did not intend to change the scripture passage itself but I can see your point that I did manage to do exactly that for some readers. And that is dangerous.
I will say that since I arrived at this particular understanding of this passage -- that it teaches a method by which Paul's mind received spiritual truth from his own regenerate spirit, which had received it directly from the Holy Spirit -- God has used it to build up my personal understanding, which has only deepened my faith, and I am happy to share it with anyone who may wish to consider it. I find no contradiction to it in Romans 8 as you apparently do.
Thank you for your comments.
I see that 264 views have already happened before I knew my post was re posted by ReveLife. Wow!
I want to point out that I believe Paul was here describing how an individual believer might hear from the Holy Spirit with regard to a personal situation. And this has been the experience I am writing about.
Elsewhere nearby Paul teaches about tongues and interpretation for the assembled church. And the two teachings are separate and don't necessarily carry over one into the other.
@caroliiineee@xanga - Your comments are reflective of my own experiences in church. But I'm curious whether or not you have received personal insight or revelation from the Spirit of God during your personal, private prayer times, speaking in an "unknown tongue" which may or may not be an actual language in use somewhere on the earth.
My post was born from that kind of experiences which left me knowing something with certainty which I had not known before.
Thank you for commenting.
@musterion99@xanga - @LadyGwenivere@xanga - Thank you for commenting and for making this a loving and considerate conversation. And to all the other viewers who do not comment: thank you for taking the time to read it.
I have both spoken in tongues and interpreted tongues many times. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunnilingus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellatio.
@JerusalemHill - Actually, I don't know if I have really tried. I think during my private times, I spend more time in the word, worshipping and praying in my understanding and I don't really think to pray in tongues. But from now on I'll start praying in tongues more during my quiet times, and see what happens:)
@JerusalemHill - You're welcome.
I have had a rough time with the "doctrine" of Speaking in Tongues. When I was 16, I was coming out of a church, that for over 50 years, preached against the Pentecostals and the charismatic movement. That church was then undergoing a massive change in beliefs, and everything was up in the air, and while things were coming down, the church decided to send us to a youth convention called Acquire The Fire. I went, and had a fun time. I was saved in 1998 at the next years ATF convention, and that spring and summer I raised over $1k in order to go on a 2 week trip with them to N'awlins. About 4 days into the trip, the Team Leader, found out the church that I was from. We had some discussions, and I refused to acknowledge speaking in tongues, and I refused to speak in tongues, so he took me off the trip, and while I was allowed to stay and help out, I was told that I could not witness to anyone, until I agreed to speak in tongues. no offense to him, but that is just wrong.
I got back from that trip, realizing that part of my refusal was because I didn't understand what they were talking about, and I try not to do things I do not understand. I had only accepted Jesus 5 months before the trip, so it is not like I was well versed in the Bible. So I did some research, and spoke to a couple groups, and this is my current belief as I understand it, at this point in time.
Speaking in tongues, or unknown languages, had it's purpose at one point in time. Christianity was still new, it was still learning and growing as God spoke to the Apostles and Disciples. Speaking in Tongues, may have been how God at one point help spread doctrine by talking to and through people. I don't presume to speak for God and I am not God, so I say may have, as one can never really be sure. But the cannon of scripture was ended in A.D. 70 with the fulfillment of all prophecy in the Bible including the Book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ. There was no prophecy or doctrine left for God to need to explain to people. The only exception to this is the physical return of Jesus Christ, and there was no need to explain this, as God had already said no man would or could know.
Since the Bible, or the Word of God, was ended and complete, there was no longer any need for God to speak new doctrine to and through people, We had the Bible in the form of the various letters that we could and can turn to for explanation and how things should be. So, I believe that for these reasons, God ended speaking in tongues, as it had served its purpose and was no longer needed.
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - I would ask you how the book of Revelation was Fulfilled in AD 70.... esp. that part about an Earthquake hitting the world that is of greater magnitude than has ever been seen before. Was the Siege of Jerusalem of greater severity and death toll than, say, World War One? Or even World War Two?
I am not a preterist (as you seem to be) and I have written an entire post regarding the view entitled "The Liberal / Mystic Christian Gamble".
As to your comments on Speaking in Tongues --- simple verse, right in the middle of where this whole post has been dancing around. In 1st Corinthians 13 you read "as for tongues, they WILL cease." Now I have always told people that when you see the word "WILL" In Scripture... mark that, it's a promise. God stated it in absolute terms, the only question is "When"?
The Charismatics will claim that this is "the last days" as prophesied in Joel and spoken of by Peter on the day of Pentacost. Thing is, Peter preached his message and appropriated that verse FOR THOSE VERY DAYS wherein he preached. Peter said "the time is now!" Meaning we've been in the "last days" for 2,000 years now because God's Grace and Mercy are so great as to be patient so that you and I could come to him and be saved.... in our day and age.
Here's my point, and I'll make it as a question. If Peter claimed the fulfillment of the Joel passage then... and it extends to now... and Tongues is SOOOOOOO important.... then why was there nearly 2,000 years wherein the world was "tongueless"? Why did they cease during the time of the apostles, only to come back in 1905 when some elderly woman decided that she HAD TO HAVE the baptism of the Holy Spirit? (I've done my research on the whole Azusa Street movement... that woman was great at reinterpreting things as she desired to see them.)
You make the perfect point --- I am commending you deeply --- the point of tongues was validation for the messenger so that the audience would listen. Even Paul makes this point when he states in 1st Corinthians 14 that "Tongues, then, is a sign for Non-Believers". I used to really annoy my youth group leader (I was in an Assembly of God church at that time) when every time Speaking in Tongues would happen I would ask "Where's the Non-Believer????" Speaking in Tongues is not some private prayer language or some Sunday Morning "Stroke-my-ego-I-can-do-it" sanctification of personal pride. In every instance of Tongues in Acts there was a preacher, an audience, a message and validation of that message by God in the confirmation of the preacher being His Mouthpiece. Every one. All of them. Acts 2, 8, 10 & 19.
You're right.... scripture closed, in 95 AD with the writing of the book of Revelation (not in 65 AD as Preterism asserts) and with the death of the last Apostle, John. We have God's spoken word --- the real question isn't whether we should seek a fresh message from Him --- but whether we're listening to the one message He already gave.... namely His Word, the Scriptures.
@brokenleaf@xanga - Your arrogant pride will bring your downfall. That is yet another promise in scripture. Mark that... God humbles the proud... and those that deign to malign Him definitely taste His power... mostly in negative fashion. I counsel you from the words of James "Humble yourself before the Lord. Wash your hands, oh sinner, & purify your hearts you double-minded, .... humble yourself before the Lord and he will lift you up." and likewise from the words of Proverbs "Pride goes before destruction, and a mocking spirit before a fall."
@musterion99@xanga - I've written about that verse in the past and how it should cause every Christian alive to stop and reflect. I don't know about you.... but that verse compels me to live by faith that I might be found and called "Faithful".
@LadyGwenivere@xanga - You're welcome.
@JerusalemHill - Look to scriptures entirely and tell me where this mysterious prayer language is spoken of? Show me the passage. The only ones people can point to are the one you used in your post (which is usually mis-interpreted... more on that in a second) and the Romans 8 passage I pointed to where they claim --- I can't pray, so the Spirit prays through me in tongues, bypassing my mind and giving my heart (RE: Emotions... link is to a post entitled "Scripture Abuse, Part 4: Where is your Heart") something to pray about. ..... except that's not what the passage says, as I pointed out. If God's Spirit "CANNOT" give these things utterance.... then how are you?
I want to leave you on a positive note (and going back to cover what I said I would in the last paragraph) --- I was reviewing various Scripture translations yesterday and came upon this translation of the verse you started your post from. Most Charismatics will claim that this verse affirms the whole "I pray with only my spirit and my mind disengages it'self" attitude. I think this translation really (and wonderfully) makes the Greek come alive. Check it out.
What then? let my prayer be from the spirit, AND EQUALLY from the mind; let my song be from the spirit, AND EQUALLY from mind. (Translation is "The Bible in Basic English" Emphasis added)
Praying with our spirit AND with our mind.... in equality. Amen.
I hope everyone will try not to be angry with me now as I choose to not quarrel with my brothers and sisters in Christ over the many differing interpretations of scripture or whether or not the Lord has yet more to say to us in various circumstances beyond what was written down by the first apostles thousands of years ago.
My instructions from Our Lord are that I am to share certain of the experiences I've had with Him with any and all who care to hear or read about them. This post is one small result of my obedience to that instruction, nothing more and nothing less.
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - I greatly appreciate this comment. Like you, I believe God has revealed all His doctrines to us, the church, in the canon of scripture. But, as you have discovered, there are many translations plus many various interpretations of scripture. Their adherents are naturally prone to apply them imperfectly. So, two things I do know for sure: Satan is the author of such confusion. And each believer is tested to overcome the confusion for himself or herself, a major part of our progressive sanctification.
After much prayer and study I came to the conclusion that, when it comes to specific guidance in a believer's life, scripture teaches us to seek direct communication with the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that He (the Holy Spirit) would guide us into "all truth." Ministers, elders, pastors, teachers, denominational leaders, etc. -- When we approach these well-meaning brothers and sisters for advice and counsel, we should understand that their advice and counsel is limited to their own education, understanding and experience. They are helpful ministries appointed to help us to grow up in Christ and begin to walk on our own two feet. However, the Spirit of God is totally unlimited in His understanding of the needs of each one of His children! And, I believe, the "spiritual gifts" otherwise known as the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are fully operational today and just waiting for the earnest seeker of God to look into. I can testify truthfully that God Himself has provided me such guidance for my personal walk with Him! And I know many others who declare the same thing.
Again, thank you for your explanation. And, by the way, I too am unashamed to call myself a Christian Fruitcake, perceived to be a fool for the sake of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
...
@brokenleaf@xanga - Thank you for sharing your sexual experiences here with all of us. God has indeed given us all good things to enjoy. However, we're here discussing spiritual truth even beyond the sensual. So then, about Jesus Christ, who is He in your own mind?
I ran from a charismatic church after witnessing the speaking of tongues. The reason? Nobody knew what the next guy was saying, and I felt emotionalism was controlling the atmosphere more than a spiritual experience. Scripture is pretty accurate on this one. If everyone doesn't know what's being said, it's basically showtime, guys. What's wrong with everyone speaking in their own native tongue, in their own country? God doesn't hear that? Or, it has to be charismatic, with people being slain in the spirit. I actually watched on t.v. a Christian camp for children where the head of the camp got the kids all stirred up for some really good action, and then on cue, shouted, "Speak in tongues!" And they all started doing their jibberish thing and rolling their eyes up in their heads. Sheesh almightly, talk about training kids to have no minds! After my husband had come to the Lord in his teens, he attended a church where the pastor told them to go into their closets at home and start their jibberish yackety yack, and that eventually, their prayer language would come to them. After a few tries, he realized what it really was. Testing God in a stupid way. Thank goodness he came to his senses.
Anytime tongues happen in the Bible, they always speak in another language that's understood by someone in the audience.The modern day charismatic movement is what started the "tongues" that we see today, which is muttering gibberish. I don't doubt the sincerity of these people, as my parents think they have spoken in tongues. I'm just saying, it's not what the Bible records happening.
@JulieMillerFan@xanga - I would be more than happy to discuss end times theology. But this is a post on tongues and interpretation. So it would be off topic. I am going to respond to your comment, but unless the author does not mind, I ask that all responses be sent to my e-mail account. I don't like it when people lea one of my posts off topic, and so I don't want to do it here.
You mentioned an earthquake in the Book of Revelation, and there is more than one. What chapter and verse is the one you are talking about?
One think we do have to keep in mind, is like all the other 65 books in the Bible, The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, was written to a people, and a place or places that exist in the time in which it was written. Some were books of history, some were poetry, some were books of doctrine, and some were encouragement. But all of the books were written to people at that time. So, when we look at the Book of the Revelation Of Jesus Christ, we need to keep in mind, that John wrote it to people then and there, to tell them what would happen. It would be of no good to the people, if John wrote them a book of things going to take place in 2000+ years. It would not be an encouragement to those who were being flogged, beaten, beheaded, and dying for the faith, if nothing was going to happen at that time.
If you were ebing whipped, would it make you happy, if I told you that the descendants of those whipping you, were going to pay for the actions done to you? God deals with people, at that time. God sent a flood, because the people were sinning. he didn't wait 500 years and then send it to punish them. it wouldn't make sense. So whatever happens in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, was going to happen then.
Let's take the beast with the seven heads and the ten horns.
"Revelation 17:9-10 "This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they
are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has
not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while."
If we read verse 10, we find that it mentions that 5 of the kings had
fallen. Prior to Nero, there were five Ceasars of Rome. Julius,
Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius,and Claudius. The verse goes on to say that one is. the one that is, was Nero. Nero was the current emperor at the time John was writing this. Then verse 10 says that there was one yet to come and when he does, it will be for a little while. The next Caesar was named Galba and he ruled for a short 7 months.
The Beast was not a literal Beast, but a symbol referring to the Roman Empire. There is another symbol that is used throughout the Bible, and that is the symbol of the Harlot. There is a harlot in the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and just like in most if not all of the cases, the harlot or prostitute refers to Israel. Israel, was God's people, and they often fell away and worshiped other gods. so God refered to them as a harlot chasing after other gods. So if Israel is the harlot and Rome is the beast with seven heads. could it be possible that the earthquake you referenced, could also be a symbol?
@Pollypinks@xanga - I also used to speak in tongues, but after prayer and study,I realized it was not tongues, but me just making up nonsense words and feeling emotional about it. I have grown so much stronger in my faith since I stopped doing that and now rely on praying to God in English and reading his word. However, saying all that, I do believe there still is a true gift of tongues that God gives some people, when needed.
@apb102088@xanga - Hey, we agree on that, even though we disagree on Calvinism.
@JerusalemHill - @ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga -
I can testify truthfully that God Himself has provided me such guidance for my personal walk with Him! And I know many others who declare the same thing.That's fine and dandy, but I've have seen so many Christians that were hurt because they followed what they "thought" was Godly guidance of the Holy Spirit.
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What I can most definitely say to this issue:
- I do not believe in the modern speaking of tongues.
- It's important to check everything with the Bible. Experience and leaders can lie. Satan can imitate and manipulate truth.
- Tongues is meant as a sign.
- Tongues is not required for salvation.
-
The only Biblical instances of people falling back or being slain in
the spirit are very bad ones - where people actually died because they
went against the Lord in some way.
I recently attempted to lay out the basics of 1) What people agree on, and 2) What Scripture says.
Visit
http://blessedandassured.blogspot.com/2012/06/some-agreed-upon-facts-and-scripture-on.html
to read my post on these matters.
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