Saturday, 27 August 2011
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Pascal's Wager: What it Tells Us About Ourselves
Imagine you are making your way into the grocery store. As you enter, an employee stops you and says, "Excuse me, there may be a bomb in the building." What would you do? Most likely, you wouldn't enter. I know I wouldn't. Although I don't know for certain if there's a bomb in the building, I wouldn't take the risk. I wouldn't risk my own life, or possibly the lives of my child/husband if they were with me on my trip. I think we can agree that you are indeed being very careless, at best, for entering the building knowing there's a 50/50 chance you could lose your life.Of course, things aren't that simple when it comes to God*. Blaise Pascal — French philosopher, scientist, mathematician and probability theorist (1623-1662) — argues that if we don’t know whether God exists then we should play it safe rather than risk being sorry.
Here's how it works.
If you do believe in God, and God does exist: you get heaven
If you do believe in God, and God does not exist: you get nothing (death is the end)
If you don't believe in God, and God does exist: you get hell
If you don't believe in God, and God does not exist: you get nothing
As you can see, it is in your best interest to believe in God. After all, hell would kinda suck, right? So why are there atheists? Or agnostics? How could it possibly benefit them to take such a risk with their eternal destinies?
Although it seems pretty simple and straight-forward, there are plenty of objections to this argument. What critics are objecting to is Pascal's subsequent advice to an unbeliever who, having concluded that the only rational way to wager is in favor of God's existence, points out, reasonably enough, that this by no means makes him a believer. A belief based solely on prudential reasoning is not true belief after all. A God who is all-knowing will clearly see through this facade. If this type of "faith" can get you into heaven, then heaven will, undoubtedly, be filled with selfish people-people who don't necessarily want to worship God, but who wanted to save their tails from his wrath for all eternity.
Another objection is that people just can't do this. Meaning, there are plenty of nonbelievers who are scared of hell, but not scared enough to follow the Lord. They can't just look at this wager and say, "Hey this is right...well, I'm a Christian now!" Think about it. Have you ever met a Christian whose testimony was "Well I became a Christian when I realized that I didn't want to go to hell and thought I'd play it safe." I've heard hundreds of testimonies of how people came to Christ, and that's one I've never personally heard. Clearly, this reasoning would cause us to raise our eyebrows and seriously question the sincerity of this person's faith.
So, you may be thinking, didn't Pascal understand that? Is he as shallow as to think that people can just "believe" on a whim? Actually, he's on to something.
I have asked the following question to at least ten people who were not Christians: "If Jesus came down right now and asked you to follow him for the rest of your life, would you?" I got nine "no"s for an answer and one "maybe". That should tell us right there that, it's not that we don't believe because we're just not convinced. We don't believe because we don't want to. It's not an intellectual decision, but a moral one.
This wager should tell us a lot about ourselves. Pascal is quoted as saying, "Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true." The fact that it would do nothing but benefit us...for eternity....to follow God, yet we don't....that should tell us about the genuineness of our beliefs (or lack thereof). We would rather stay how we are, in our risky state, than submit to God. There are plenty of Scripture verses to show that we are actually not in a morally neutral state. We cannot just, on a whim, choose good or evil. We are, by nature, slaves to sin (Romans 6:6). We have a free will but not a good will. We will always choose not to obey God, because we would rather go our own way. We would rather serve ourselves than our Creator, for no other reason than because it pleases us more to do things our way. Had Adam and Eve's scenario been replaced with you and me, we would've chosen the same thing. The only thing that can free us from our bondage to slavery is Christ's sacrifice and the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. The only reason anyone is a Christian, including myself, is because God has chosen to lift the veil that blinds our eyes and recreate our heart in such a way that it simply cannot say no to him. We love Christ. We can't get enough of him. The sin we once loved, we now abandon, and the Christ we once ignored, we now embrace.
Read this carefully: Christianity has never been about being convinced of God's existence, or merely about "believing" he exists. NEWSFLASH: Satan believes in God! "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder" (James 2:19). But last time I checked, demons are not going to heaven. Just believing in God's existence isn't what gets people to heaven.
I don't look forward to heaven because there's going to be happiness, no more death, and peace. I ultimately look forward to heaven because I get Christ! I get to forever be with him and learn about him for the rest of eternity.
I think John Piper puts it best: ""Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there. The gospel is not a way to get people to heaven; it is a way to get people to God. It's a way of overcoming every obstacle to everlasting joy in God. If we don't want God above all things, we have not been converted by the gospel."
*For the sake of consistency and simplicity, we are assuming the existence of the Christian God for this argument
What are your thoughts on Pascal's Wager? Is it safer to assume there is a God? If it is, why are there people who don't believe?
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- From: apb102088@xanga
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- About Me: Been married to my best friend for 2 years and we have a beautiful son. We are trying to finish school so that we can go to the mission field in 5-10 years so we can share the Gospel to those who have never heard.
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Comments (65)
Another key weakness is that God is ambiguous here. Which God? There are hundreds to choose from, all with an equal chance of being the true God (nobody can know for sure which one is right). So there's yet another weakness in the argument.
Either way you're taking a risk. Either eternity in hell or depriving yourself of some of life's pleasures for no reason. Further, nobody can be 100% certain either way, so both paths are equal risk. Period.
@StatelessPilot - I disagree wholeheartedly with your comment. God does not leave us in a state of BLIND faith, or I hope I made it. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy ,peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Does that really sound as though it's chancy? These are the qualities that God works into our lives. If one is truly seeking to know "a god", God will receive you and begin His work in you. There is nothing chancy or iffy about it. God does all the work and you provide what little you have. It only took 1 loaf and 2 fish to feed 5,000 folks. Pascal's Wager does not take into account the human heart (soui). We, by nature, tend toward evil; always have, always will! But when God steps in, He removes that tendency for evil over time and shows us Jesus Christ as our pattern. God draws our heart, and we either acknowledge that or we don't. The decision is not made in the head, but in the heart (soul). Pascal's wager leads one to believe it is in the head that we make the decision, but that is not correct, it is the very essence of the man that makes the decision in the heart (or soul of a man). Every human will be required to make that choice. Dan
@danandbevsfarm@xanga - Who's to say it's not all just an illusion though? I'd love to see you prove that with 100% certainty. Further, I agree thatvpeople are inherently evil, but disagree with your assertion that all non-Christians are bad (evil) people. I know some atheists with high moral standards and some Christians with shitty moral standards.
By the way, anyone who believes it is literally possible to feed 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread (thereby cutting the bread loaves into 1,000 slices each) and 2 fish (thereby 1/2500 of a fish each) needs to go back to grade school.
@StatelessPilot -Pilot said; By the way, anyone who believes it is
literally possible to feed 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread (thereby
cutting the bread loaves into 1,000 slices each) and 2 fish (thereby
1/2500 of a fish each) needs to go back to grade school.
I think you just explained why people that do not chose Jesus Christ will perish. It is the unbelief that will cost all. God offers eternal life, but folks reject it. Pascal did not take the human heart into account. That is why the scientific method does not work with faith. Faith does not function in the same realm as the material realm. It is true that faith may leave evidence in the material realm, but the material is passing away so it is only of concern for a short while. Reason is not the basis for belief. Pascal's wager depended on reason and the reasonable, but to man, faith is not reasonable so it is discounted. However, that is EXACTLY what God requires. In order to have faith you MUST believe that He exists.
pilot said; Who's to say it's not all just an illusion though? I'd love to see you prove that with 100% certainty.
I will tell you that I am living proof of that with 100% certainty. I died in a tractor rollover, 30 years ago. I was dead (no pulse, no respiration, black/blue from oxygen deprivation) when the volunteer fire department showed on the scene and it took 15 minutes for them to remove the tractor. Most were friends and believers and they prayed along with my pastor and my church. They tried mouth-to-mouth, they tried oxygen, they tried CPR; nothing worked. While they were gathered to remove the body from the presence of my wife and daughter, I coughed and came back to life. So I can tell you with 100% confidence that I AM THE PROOF. If you cannot believe the testimony of one back from the dead, you have just fulfilled the prophecy of Jesus Christ in Luke 16:31. So, you see, it is not reason that will keep one from heaven, it is disbelief. Dan
@StatelessPilot - pilot said; I know some atheists with high moral standards and some Christians with shitty moral standards.
God is not interested in works. He gave the Ten Commandments as the standard for man. Have you or your atheists EVER not acknowledged god, have you or your friends EVER not obeyed the Sabbath day and kept it holy. Have you or your friends EVER lusted after another man's wife, or car, or daughter, or money, or, or ,or. These are the standards that we MUST achieve if we are to be righteous in His sight. Only one human has been able to do that and He was killed on your behalf. Now morallity, sinfulness, righteousness, works, have no value in God's sight. The ONLY thing that has value is what you do with Jesus Christ. He who has the son, has life, he who does not have the Son, does not have life. It is as simple as that and it is unbelief that keeps one from the Son. God has done everything He can do to provide life for each of us. Now the ball is in our court. Do we throw the ball away, along with one's eternal life, or do we pick the ball up and play it. The choice is ours. Morality or lack thereof is no longer the issue. Does that make any sense to you? Dan
@danandbevsfarm@xanga - I am going to have to see some documentation for that story (newpsaper article, medical report, etc.) before I believe that. That's just too far out there to even believe.
@danandbevsfarm@xanga - For the record, I am not an atheist. So try again.
@StatelessPilot - It was front page news in 1981 and I do have the original article I can post it if you like or email it to you. In fact, next month is my 30th second birthday , or do I call it my rebirthday!!
I do not believe I called you an atheist, I said that you and your atheists. That was a repeat of what you yourself had said.
pilot said; I know some atheists with high moral standards and some Christians with shitty moral standards
Dan said;. Have you or your atheists EVER not acknowledged god..................................
@danandbevsfarm@xanga Alrighty then, I'd love to see that article. Honestly it would be a good conversation piece to post. If you do post it I will recommend it because it would be some interesting material indeed vs. the usual garbage you see on Xanga.
Pascal's wager tells us that some followers of Christianity are really just in for the wager and are not truly a follower of Christ.
For an atheist, Pascal's wager reveals that atheist would rather live a moral life than believe in an irrational and unreasonable being (God).
Is it safer to assume there is a God? No, because we would continue to live in an irrational and unreasonable world with laws that prohibit any real laws of intellect.
@Lyrical_L@xanga - I uploaded the article and also edited out my name because God is to get any glory out of this, not me. The news article was faded and sealed in plastic so it is discolored but I think it will be readable. Also, this was a secular newspaper that caters to a mostly agnostic croud so that many of the miraculous components are missing, but there should still be enough to "get the picture". Three of the seven men from the fire department are dead now, including one in the picture; all were younger than me. I hope this is enough proof for you. Dan
rollover
"I have asked the following question to at least ten people who were not Christians: "If Jesus came down right now and asked you to follow him for the rest of your life, would you?" I got nine "no"s for an answer and one "maybe". That should tell us right there that, it's not that we don't believe because we're just not convinced. We don't believe because we don't want to. It's not an intellectual decision, but a moral one. "
that might be true of some non-Christians, but it's ignorant of you to take that and say all feel the same way. if Jesus popped up in my bedroom this morning, i'd convert instantly. but that'd be the only thing that'd make me convert.
@danandbevsfarm@xanga - What does this prove?
That men can come back to life from the dead, it's happened many times in the medical field and this event is no different. This also proves that most people have selective thinking, that in all the good events we feel God is responsible, but when all the crap comes along, we blame on people saying it's their responsibility.
If this proves that there is a God, then I would not want to worship a God who has the power to save everyone and yet saves very few without any true reason. There are a thousand starving, dying, being raped and murdered.
Give me an article that provides a real miracle. People have died and then come back to life later. It's science in the medical field that helps interpret such events.
Either way, I can be more moral without God than with him in my life.
That is why I do not fall for Pascal's wager.
@Lyrical_L@xanga - Quite frankly, then, you HAVE made your choice and you wll be held accountable for that choice. Faith does not function on the same plain as science. You have just shown that. It is much the same as someone who chooses to stay in a valley that way they are not required to labor walking on hillsides and exerting themselves. You have chosen the path of least resistance, my friend; the easy way you will find is not the best way.
Luke 16:31New International Version (NIV)31
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they
will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - What you are saying is that when you are coerced, you would convert. Why not earlier? Jesus Christ coerces NO ONE to come to Him. You choose, not He forces!! That is saying that this life is more important than ANYTHING else!! Dan
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - if Jesus popped up in my bedroom this morning, i'd convert instantly. but that'd be the only thing that'd make me convert. \
Look at it this way, If you saw an apple that looked like it might be sweet and firm, would you ask that apple to jump in your mouth and prove that it is sweet and firm? You are asking that of Jesus, aren't you? YOU must pick up the apple and taste it to find it is good to eat. That is the responsibility that you take in order to find out. You must initiate in faith and God will, and has already done, the rest. Some find, in their pride, that the apple is bitter and spit Him out. That is THEIR choice, but I can tell you from personal experience that He is good and so can many, many folks, tell you the same thing. He says, "Come to me you who are heavy laden, and I WILL give you rest".
I'm not sure you know what "coerced" means. by your definition, anyone who met Jesus in person was forced into believing in him. how is simply appearing to me a form of coercion? I simply doubt he exists. and I can't make a choice I don't believe I'm being legitimately offered. and obviously this life is more important than anything else to me. if the afterlife is so much more important to you, why do you consider it a miracle that you came back from the dead?
...that's kind of a dumb example. I'm still waiting for the apple to appear, let alone to decide if it tastes good. I don't think I'm asking too much of an all-powerful being offer me better proof than a flawed book and a bunch of followers who mostly seem incapable of following their own beliefs.
as for responsibility, I didn't ask to be (according to Christianity) born with original sin. why is it my responsibility to fix a situation God created? if He wants to see me saved, why am I to blame if He isn't interested in what it would take to save me? surely God is intelligent enough to understand that people have different levels of doubt, and that it's not a one-size-fits-all situation.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Faith is not a matter of weighing the evidence. Here is the fdefinition of faith. Faith has absolutely NOTHING to do with seeing. You may be from the generation that accepts the phrase, "seeing is believing, but that is not faith. God says that unless you come to me in faith, you WILL NOT believe in me.
Hebrews 11Faith in Action1
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
2
This is what the ancients were commended for.
3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command,
so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
You see, faith operates on a completely different plain than what is visible and in order to see it, one must believe that it exists. Somewhat like the wind. You do not see it, but you see the "evidence" of where it has been. Faith operates in the same manner. I accept by faith the fact not only that God exists but He only has good in mind for me, now and later. You are "coerced" in the sense that tyou , as you have said WILL NOT BELIEVE until Jesus appears to you. You basically said that if He does not appear to you, you WILL NOT BELIEVE. So it is a forgone conclusuion on your part that you will not believe because God is not YOUR servant, He does not have to prove His existance; you must believe that He exists in order to see Him.. If your heart was perepared to receive Him, I would say yes, it is possible that something spiritual will appear to you. But you already, without doubt have a decision firm in your mind and your heart that you will not believe, even if the dead appear to you. While Jesus was alive many saw His works and heard Him speak and believed. Now that He is gone , His Word the bible speaks and He has said this;
John 20:29New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
@danandbevsfarm@xanga -
"Faith is not a matter of weighing the evidence."
then why were you offering your personal experience as proof a few comments above?
"God says that unless you come to me in faith, you WILL NOT believe in me."
that makes no sense. you are basically arguing that i will never believe in God unless i first believe in God.
" God is not YOUR servant, He does not have to prove His existance"
then God does not love me, otherwise He would do whatever it took to motivate my faith.
"But you already, without doubt have a decision firm in your mind and your heart that you will not believe, even if the dead appear to you. "
that's awfully judgmental of you. you know nothing of my spiritual journey, with Christianity or any other religion. nor is it your place to tell me what i have or haven't decided. i have made no decision. i'm still waiting to be convinced. but Christians like you who love to presume what i do and do not believe in really turn me off. i'm sure you don't like being told you're an illogical idiot for believing in an invisible being. show me the same respect by not telling me i've somehow rejected God because i'm unconvinced. as i said before, i can't make a choice until i'm sure i'm genuinely offered one.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I have tried to be up front and honest with you from the beginning. Is it honesty that turns you off? Is it the fact that I have told you only what God has said about me and you? I have presented your true condition according to what God has said in the book that you do not believe. Is that what turns you off? You have said that you have not made a decision yet and are waiting for further evidence that you can weigh. You consider me to be very judgemental by what I have told you. Let me show you where that comes from and why I am able to say what I do.
Matthew 12:30New International Version (NIV)30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
When you are hit by a car and cry out, "God help me", that is not a visible evidence and yet if it is a heart acknowledgement, you will know God at that point, If I gave you the whole story about how I came to know the Lord, after listening to your comments, you would think I was lying. I post one event with the tractor and that wasn't enough for one fellow. If I told the rest that has happened, I am assuming it would not be believed because the tractor rollover was only part of my history. I am not judgemental, I am telling you the truth from the bible and from my own experience with Him, you must deal with your reaction to that. Eve blamed the serpent, Adam blamed God and Eve. There is usually an excuse for not coming to God. I want to be very blunt with you. If you are not able to believe what God has said in the book that He wrote, do you think you would believe Him if He appeared?
You said; you know nothing of my spiritual journey,
with Christianity or any other religion. nor is it your place to tell
me what i have or haven't decided. i have made no decision. i'm still
waiting to be convinced.
But in reality, you have made a decision. You have decided to not follow him until He gives you enough evidence. That is a decision. Dan
@danandbevsfarm@xanga -
" Is it honesty that turns you off? "
no, but arrogance and ignorance does.
"I am not judgemental, I am telling you the truth from the bible and from my own experience with Him, you must deal with your reaction to that. "
when i was Christian, i was suicidal, naive, selfish and lost. it was only after i opted for agnosticism that i finally felt comfortable in my own skin, and that i was able to love someone or something other than myself. tell me, why should your personal experience matter more to me than my own? what is your reaction to my experience with your god?
" If you are not able to believe what God has said in the book that He wrote, do you think you would believe Him if He appeared?"
one, God didn't write the Bible. people, flawed people, wrote the Bible.
two, that makes no sense. i can read a book about unicorns and choose to not believe in them until i see one.
"But in reality, you have made a decision. You have decided to not follow him until He gives you enough evidence. "
it seems that, because of your religion, you are incapable of grasping the simple idea of disbelief. how can i decide not to follow something i don't believe exists? would you say that you've made a conscious decision not to follow Zeus or Shiva? no, because you don't believe that they exist for you to follow. you are merely in a state of disbelief. choosing to either accept or reject God requires an affirmative belief in Him. i don't have one.
I'm a believer, but I think a huge proponent not discussed is fear. Evangelism is chalk full of fear, when preaching to non believers. And that's the worst reason of all for claiming or trying to be a believer. And as Luke has told us, "Every man shall see salvation", we are able to take the fear factor out of beating other people's heads with our bibles and accept that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. We are specifically not told everybody is going to come to this conclusion on our timeline, so I think we need to get off our arrogant rear ends and accept everybody as they are, and if they show an inclination in learning why we believe in what we do, then we share. And if they disagree, we still need not worry. Nor they.
@Pollypinks@xanga - Thank you Polly, and I agree with you 100%. It is easy for us to become fearful for those that haven't experienced the Lord that they will miss there eternity and the concern I always have is the "us and them" mentality. It is ALWAYS a matter of "us" because the cloth that all humans are cut from is the same bolt of cloth. We ALL are sinners and thank you for reminding me of that. Sometimes there are those that are imbittered by the "christian religion" which hides under the title of "Christian" that have not experienced salvation. They are recognized by the legalistic nature of their teaching. The true church of Jesus Christ lives in the grace that abounds in Him and they know Him. On occasion, you meet someone who has tried the "christian religion" and is imbittered by the "taste" and spit them out in search of another reality. Truth, reality, and love, need to be the witness with the emphasis on love, but equally on the truth as well. "Christian religion" introduces false truth, especially on what it takes to be saved. Truth says it is Jesus Christ plus NOTHING. Any religion, including "christian religion" will always insist on works; Jesus Christ plus baptism, plus righteousness, plus tongues, plus, plus, plus. As a believer, you are aware of this.
When a heart is truly searching, Jesus says you WILL find me. When a heart has given up or searching among the extreme religions as an example, they need to be brought back to reality. Using words, rather than deeds (we can't use deeds here), then it becomes a matter of defining "what love is". Truth, as harsh as it is, becomes important. "What does God say is my condition?" is the question that needs to be answered in truth. It can be harsh, its true, and it can appear unloving, that's true, but knowing the truth of where I am at is the point at which to start a search. That is the difference between arrogance and humility. Knowing the truth can bring humility. Ignoring the truth brings arrogance. Dan
@Pollypinks@xanga - You have made a statement that I believe needs to be clarified.
Polly said; "Every man shall see salvation", we are able
to take the fear factor out of beating other people's heads with our
bibles and accept that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord.
I agree with the every knee shall bow but I am not sure what you meant by "Every man shall see salvation". Are you saying that ALL humans will be saved? Dan