
The Christian life, if done right, is very difficult. It is.
It is very difficult to carry out the demands of Jesus.
Jesus is a very demanding kind of guy.
If you look at his words in the scripture, some of the things he says demands a lot of us.
But, as Christians, we “interpret” his demands, “put them in a modern perspective” and disobey them, because after all, in our Western thought, we think Jesus wouldn’t put such demands on us.
Jesus demands it all.
But in our modern version of Christianity, we don’t see it as a call to give it all, to pursue our relationship with God.
For some reason, Jesus can be merely restricted to Sunday mornings and maybe Wednesday nights, just as long as we make a Facebook status, we keep our religion status, wear the necklace and don’t drink in public.
Believe it or not, we section off a part of our lives and we give that section to Jesus, but the other sections?
That’s for ourselves.
And every few years, we take a mission trip, because that’s a way to give back and give to those who don’t experience God.
We see how thirsty they are for a glimpse of God, and we report back to those who have supported us financially.
Instead of living out the value of a Christian life, we cling to theology and short catchphrases on what it means to be a Christian.
We witness by praying over our meal and then proceed to talk about things that do not need to be talked about.
We wear our Christian t-shirts, listen to Christian music and attend Christian concerts ,where we have a true experience of emotion, and thus we buy a lot of Christian-themed shirts.
We go on retreats and return on spiritual highs.
We buy devotional books that do nothing but gather dust.
We support Republican candidates because they’re fighting to save the family and to protect us from the evil that is homosexuality.
We abhor everything that doesn’t fit in our “Christian box” because of course it’s evil, and of course we’re supposed to flee from it, never mind that the actual person is a person.
When hard times come along, we cite verses that people normally cite and we say that God’s testing us, or we’re just going through a trial and we remind ourselves that if we just have faith, we’ll get through it all
.
Seems like we’re putting it all in a perspective that just makes us feel good.
It just makes us feel better about things.
Gives us warm and fuzzy feelings without breaking a sweat and putting on a fur coat.
We orient everything so that we don't have to change our way of life. And we pursue what we want because it's our God-given desires. We distance ourselves from the reality of Christ's call because that's comfortable. In reality, the Christian walk, to me, looks something more like this sounds.
I don't know.
The reality is, that Jesus challenges us. But we dilute that challenge. As I've grown older and I've been given the desire to get into the word, the more and more I realize how much I'm not giving it all up to follow Jesus. I quit Christianity. I'm no longer a Christian. I just wanna follow Jesus. I don't want the demands and the politics of being a Christian anymore. I don't wanna follow the church. The church could be great, but it's so uninspiring. There's no longer any room for imagination, but there's plenty of room for theology and doctrine. There's not enough space to be limitless and to believe in a limitless God, but there's plenty of time to chain God down into a series of statements and responsive readings.
The reason that we chain God down and we no longer imagine the possibilities, is because we like to think that we can control God and we can control what the statements of Jesus say. We can control the message of dilution. But when we encounter something real, something mystical that defies theological and doctrinal beliefs, we realize that we can't answer things with our prepared cliche statements. It's not enough. I encountered a mystical, magical, imaginary God in a series of deep pain. The cliche statements Christians make, "It's all in God's plan" "Just keep on" "Depend on God" "God never shuts a door without opening a window", all those statements just add acid to the aching wound. Intentions are certainly good, I do believe, but they ignore the actual reality. What if the hurt is pointless? What if there is no plan? What if there is no reason? Because in those moments of hurt and pain, God doesn't seem to answer and he doesn't seem altogether that near to me. I feel abandoned. What if there is no plan? What if this is just another season of hurt? Another thing to get through?
We can have all the faith in the world, but if this doesn't permeate our very being, we've got nothing. If we aren't really growing and if we aren't really allowing the gospel to transform our lives, then we've got nothing. When the hurt comes in, we're bombarded by cliche statements and then feel guilty when we doubt God in the midst of it all. Kutless' song, at first seems great, it's an empowering song, to remind you to just get through whatever circumstance you're facing, and it'll all work out. But what the song ignores is that faith is a dime-a-dozen. Everyone has faith. Everyone. Even those who don't believe in anything. Everyone puts their faith and trust in something. Just because I put my faith and trust in this chair, doesn't mean that I can move the mountains. This song tries to put this idea in our head that if we just have enough faith, we can do impossible things. I don't think that's true. Because we're leaving out a huge component of the reality of our lives. God. We've left God out of the equation entirely. See, it's not our faith that moves the mountains, our faith doesn't really heal disease, broken hearts don't get healed by faith -- God does it all. God is the one that can move mountains. God is the healer. God is the restorer of broken hearts and lives. If we believe in God, we know it is God that is working out all things, and it's not because of our faith. God is still God even when I don't believe in him or don't feel him. Just because I don't believe in him, doesn't mean that he ceases to be God.
Gandhi says: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I really like that statement. He also says: "Ask the poor. They will tell you who the Christians are." Those two statements are a harsh contrast to each other. Christians are unlike Christ, but the real Christians are known by the poor. We're told it's hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. And if we want to follow Jesus, we have to give up everything. But, in our comfortable perspectives of God, we say that having money and being rich is not a bad thing, as long as we don't get wrapped up in our monetary status. In addition, Jesus doesn't want us to give up our stuff, he just wants us to not be attached to it. But we are attached to our stuff and we are wrapped up in our monetary status. We worry about money. We lock our doors and our cars, because we don't want people to steal our stuff. Somehow, I don't think our western perspective is enough.
It's strange, we worship a homeless guy on Sunday, but then when we encounter homeless people, we treat them with less than cordial manners. We ignore them, but we worship a homeless guy. Jesus was homeless. He had to take in the hospitality of his friends and families, and he instructed his followers to travel around in pairs at least, and depend on the gifts and bounties of God. We say that people can have this whole world, but give us Jesus, yet we're afraid to really rely on God and refuse to risk it all and allow things to be open-ended.
So I quit Christianity. I quit it because we don't take Jesus at his word. We doctrinalize and theologize what Jesus says instead of taking him literally and falling in love with our neighbors. We close the door to new ways of doing things because it's more comfortable to remain complacent. We would rather remain where we are than be radically changed by the God of butterflies and sunsets and bubbles. The greatest thing that Jesus said, for us to do, is to love God, love people as ourselves, and the rest doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter. When we love God, we are driven to love his people, and we learn that God's love isn't dependent upon what we do or say or believe. God loves us anyways. Thus, if we are to become like Christ, then we learn that our love for others has to be the same way. And, in acting with love, we embody love and we live it out, because that's the only sure way to demonstrate God's love. If we haven't love, the bible says, we have nothing. And I believe that Jesus would agree with that. We can go on all the mission trips in the world, we can donate all the money we want, but if we don't have a deep and passionate love for those we're serving, it amounts to nothing. Mission trips are great, and I'm not saying they're evil...but I often wonder if they really make a difference unless you repeatedly go back. A lot of people go to a lot of different places on a mission trip. And that's great, but unless it becomes personal and you become personally involved with these people and you begin a relationship with them, there's no real potential for personal change and growth.
I think that there's more to being desperate to see people come to know God than screaming at them from a corner, thumping your bible in their face, "convicting" them with scripture, putting a statement on a facebook page or wall. I think there's more than simply dozing during church, to being a Christian. Jesus calls us to community, and he calls us into a deep love for people. And if we love people deeply enough, issues are suddenly personal. Lives are suddenly significant.
I think what Jesus calls us to, and what is most challenging for us, is to make each life significant. See, God makes a big deal out of all of us, that's why we have hopscotch, and puppies and playtime. We have enjoyment of what we've been given. And as a result, we like to use our enjoyment of whatever we're doing, and we like to hoard it up for ourselves. But it's supposed to be a shared thing. Joy is contagious, and once we decide to focus on the joy that our lives can hold, we can give it away. But we don't, because each stranger is not a significant person. Or, we're uncomfortable.
Let me be clear, Jesus is not here to make our lives comfortable. He makes it better, but that doesn't mean it's comfortable. There are still moments where you feel like suicide. There are still moments of sincere anger. And there's moments of torture and pain. The Christian life is difficult because it demands more of us than we think. It demands that we take Jesus personally and we take the act of living it out as the most important task we do everyday. So I quit the Christian way of life so that I can follow Jesus. I quit so that I can learn to love my neighbors more than myself, because that's just what Jesus would do. I quit so that I can take the commandments personally and not be wooed by the comfortable western Christian theology. I quit so that I can learn to take it all personally and intentionally.
I'd like to close with this story. Shane Clariborne actually tells this in his book, The Irresistible Revolution, but I'll just summarize it here. Shane went to Calcutta, and he was hanging out with Mother Teresa, and he noticed her feet. They were disfigured and deformed, and he asked about why her feet were in such horrible shape. And one of the people working with her said that she didn't want anyone to have to endure the most terrible shoes possible, and so she would look through the boxes of donated shoes and pick out the worst pair and wear them. Years of doing that, disfigured her feet. That's the cost of loving her neighbor as herself, disfiguring her feet. I think she took the words of Christ personally more than I can right now. All because she fell in love with her neighbors.
What do you think of these thoughts on Christianity? Do you agree or disagree? Have you thought of quitting Christianity?
Comments (17)
Christianity as a whole is not Christ's Christianity. Many people BELIEVE IN Jesus, but don't necessarily BELIEVE Him, for many of the reasons you mentioned. What He really wants from us is a consecrated life, all that we are and can be - that is, our heart, might, mind, and strength. We will work our whole lives and not achieve that, but it is both our direction and our velocity that is important to Him.
We must always be moving towards Christ and away from the world. Fortunately, He will always help the honest in heart know what they should concentrate day by day to do this. If we ask, seek, and knock, we will receive, find, and have the door opened to us. Each day He will take us as far up the road towards Him as we are willing to go. Yes, we have to accept Him, and yes, we must keep His commandments, but most of all He desires that we become one with Him, that we may be joint-heirs with Him in our Father's kingdom.
"I quit Christianity. I'm no longer a Christian. I just wanna follow Jesus. I don't want the demands and the politics of being a Christian anymore. I don't wanna follow the church."
I understand your frustrations, but does Jesus want you to quit Christianity, to quit the church? He says, for example:
Matthew 16:18- "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My CHURCH; and the gates of hell will not overpower it."
Matthew 18:17- "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the CHURCH; and if he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."
Now you have said yourself that Jesus can be demanding; see His demands! As difficult as the church can be, He desires us to belong to the church. After all, is not the church His Bride, and does He, has He or will He ever abandon her? It seems to me that if you want truly, desperately in the very depths of your heart to follow Jesus--and I firmly believe that you do, given the depth of this post--then it seems you absolutely have to be a Christian.
It may be that you need to take a break from things for a bit, to pray and talk to Jesus about what exactly is going on in your heart right now. Perhaps it isn't Christianity, but rather what you understand Christianity to be?
For example, one of my favorite conversion stories of all time was told to a group of college students by a young man. He spoke of similar frustrations as you, of a lukewarm Christianity that was about feeling good but never pushed him to the extremes of going where he felt Jesus was calling him. So he began to wonder what church or what Christianity Jesus wanted him to belong to. He read his Bible and one thing he noticed was the stories of the apostles, men who abandoned everything--wife, children, wealth, jobs, family--to follow Him. He looked around his own community and denomination and wondered, "If we are Christians, where are THESE people?"
Just like the author you mentioned at the end of your post who was inspired by Mother Theresa, he discovered in the Catholic Church that there are still, to this day, thousands of people that choose to literally give up everything to follow Jesus, to love His people and to put their whole life on the line for the sake of the Gospel. He took this to prayer and realized that in order to obey the deepest longing of his heart--to follow Jesus--he had to become Catholic. And so he did!
First off, I apologize if I am critical with every "controversial" title produced here. I just think what is being said here is somewhat deceptive and misleading...
You quit Christianity? How poetic. But the words here are a little deceptive even though they have a tint of "light" in them...
Let me ask, these things blamed on Christians, do you have some good examples? I'm having a hard time seeing these things being lived out by people I know are Christians. I think this blog plays a little on the side of social engineering as there are no examples given but tons of blame placed.
It is a travesty when a person does not have integrity with their faith. It is deplorable to label a person a Christian who tramples on the poor. Let me ask, Who is it that Jesus came for? Was it the wise? Was it the Pharisee? I think what you must be saying here is that you deny the grossness of humanity creeping into Christianity. However, to quit the faith? And to lead others away from the faith too? To what?...
"I quit Christianity. I'm no longer a Christian. I just wanna follow Jesus. I don't want the demands and the politics of being a Christian anymore. I don't wanna follow the church. The church could be great, but it's so uninspiring. There's no longer any room for imagination, but there's plenty of room for theology and doctrine..."
So, what place does something petty like doctrine and theology have in our lives? MUCH!!! Does this mean our imagination is quenched? When we think the way this blog does, I believe that our imagination is quenched!!!
"Intentions are certainly good, I do believe, but they ignore the actual reality. What if the hurt is pointless? What if there is no plan? What if there is no reason? Because in those moments of hurt and pain, God doesn't seem to answer and he doesn't seem altogether that near to me. I feel abandoned. What if there is no plan? What if this is just another season of hurt? Another thing to get through?..."
Please give a good example of this. I have gone through horrible heartache, but God was glorified!!! Tell me that the hurt was pointless. Tell me that there was no plan. Tell me there was no reason. BECAUSE MY GOD GIVES ME A POINT IN LIFE!!! MY GOD GIVES ME A PLAN!!! HE IS MY REASON!!! AND I STAND BY FAITH!!! Do not trample the gospel and doctrine for the sake of being taboo!!!
"Jesus calls us to community, and he calls us into a deep love for people. And if we love people deeply enough, issues are suddenly personal. Lives are suddenly significant. "
Postmodern. However, why did God have Adam live in a season of solitude? Why did God have Moses stuck in a desert for 40 years? Why was Joseph abandoned in a prison and left to ponder for two years while a cup bearer and baker who committed crimes were set free in a few days? And Jesus was in the desert 40 days. I think God does call us to community, but you quit our community because you are stuck on how cliche people can be? Yipes.
nope, I TOTALLY get what the author is saying. She doesn't say shes quitting the community. She just says she's quitting the labels and the expectations and all the EXTRA stuff that come along with Christianity.
I can relate because that's where I am too. I haven't quit community. In fact, the community is whereever I'm in company of other believers and we're encouraging each other. That can be ANYWHERE ,it's not confined to a building or an organized meeting. Jesus didn't even invent Christianity, man did. His disciples did.
Folks have made Christianity to be a box. And if it doesn't fit in that nice neat lil box, if it's not in scripture...it tends to be misunderstood/condemned/labeled as a sin etc. But truth is, there's LOTS of grey areas. There's LOTS of questions we dont have answers to that AREN'T in scripture. And to me, following Christ is all about embracing that uncertainty and those grey areas...loving people the way Christ did, showing folks the way. You can have that without what we've made Christianity to be. And I say we've because so much of it is man made...I could go on and on...but I get where the author is coming from. And I TOTALLY agree. And I respect those who have a different opinion...
@HeadStrongChica@xanga - Ditto- To your answer and the authors post.
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga - The true Chruch is every single person that loves and knows Jesus and is with each person all the time. God dwells in the hearts of those that love Him and not in any man made building, artifact or natural feature. God does say that we need fellowship with other followers, to worship and commune with God with spiritual family. "Church" however, is not in the curriculum. The modern interpretation of "church" is ridiculous so far from what Jesus intended. The majority of pastors oppress their people diluting the gospel and God. Deciding who can and when it's ok to follow the spirit instead of letting God do what He will while trusting the congregation and his own discernment to decide weather or not someone is doing the will of God or not. The "pastor" is only supposed to be the guy everyone knows will certainly follow the Spirit, who leads and encourages others to do the same. Back in the day, there were more like several of these guys. They didn't set up sermons and decide what and how many songs they would sing. Church is what happens when believers get together and let the Spirit of God flow, singing, sharing testimony and the word of God, ministering to one another. Each person trusting their siblings to follow the Spirit while at the same time knowing that God will make sure that wolves get dealt with. Church is communal, out of the control of any man and led by the Holy Spirit of God.
Yes I'm a little bitter, judge me.
People want safety and religion over a radical and earth changing Jesus and so they build churches and hire people to create bible studies and lesson plans. Set up bodies of old codgers to decide weather or not something is "Godly" and approved of while the pastor lets little old ladies with massive life insurance checks tell them what to do because if they don't then she'll take her money somewhere else because they can't afford to pay the bills without her. Filled with people so unwilling to trust each other that Jesus himself could show up, show them how it's supposed to be and they still wouldn't listen. While still having discipleship programs and making sure new people know that while we'll give you a couple weeks, we need you to get with the program and do what everyone else is doing or we're "not for you". This is the state of the current "church". Why would I want to be a part of that?
Please don't get me started on the "symbol of Christianity" they that pray to dead people as if they're God or have any say at all over the world of the living while telling people to say hail Mary's and go walking across the chapel on their knees until they bleed to get that lie they told 3 weeks ago forgiven. That "Church"? The one that believes you can work off miss deeds in purgatory to get into heaven if you weren't that bad of a person?
I whole heartedly agree with the author of this post and encourage her to run with it, even though I'm a horrible example of someone who's made the same choice. I could really use some prayer....
Well I was amazed at your whole blog post because it examplify's my walk with God and myself. I was just amazed how you hit every nail on the head and hit everything spot on. I would like to say that your right about everything you said in my opinion.
And looking at my life I haven't given my all to Jesus, I've just been falling Him close enough, actually not even following Him at all and just going to Church on Sunday's. I do believe in God but I mean my faith isn't being put to action and that's the sad part but I do have faith and I need to get out there and do something. I dunno.
But I think this was a great post. I think some people can find God in Church and some people find God outside of Church. All that matters is that the person finds God but I do think it's good for believers to go to Church and hear the Word of God once in awhile. I believe the Church can become creative it just depends on the people doing it you have to have the people who are gifted in that area and can reach certain people.. For instance not everyone would be good working with teens and may be seen as "dorky" lol but there are people who CAN reach teenagers and who teenagers will look up to - it depends on the person.
While you may not find knitting creative some church ladies may get together and knit and have a blast, so theres lot of other things but I think I get what your saying.
Hm... I guess it's easy to be religious when our hearts aren't right with God or they aren't on fire about God. I admit my fire for God kinda has gone out and I'm sure theres lots of Christians out there whose hearts don't live for the Lord like they used to but that can always change its a process... But I do think you described Western Christianity to a T but.. even some of those kids/people who wear the Christian T-Shirts and listen to Christian music.. love the Lord... so you have to look at the heart to
Some people who may live in a so called boxed Christianity may be even more in love with God than somebody who isn't.. and sometimes people who aren't in boxed Christianity believe in God more than those who are in the boxes I dunno God looks at the heart!!!!!!! If you talk to a person you may be surprised at how they DO believe in God
the Christian church isn't the problem, it's the churchgoers. Believers are what make up a church, and if just one of those believers aren't truly following the Lord, then the entire church is spoiled. I know this from prior experience from the old church I used to attend. You have to look at each person, but then again who are we to judge one another's love for God..?
Also, pain is never pointless. There's always at least a tiny lesson learned from it, and also depending on the way you handle pain; pain can help strengthen you.
@orionkiller@xanga - Goodness, what a massive comment! Thank you for taking the time; I'll try and respond as generously! I hope you don't mind my quote-and-respond approach, but when I respond to big comments it helps me to make sure I respond to it completely and that I don't miss anything.
"The true Church is every single person that loves and knows Jesus and is with each person all the time. God dwells in the hearts of those that love Him and not in any man made building, artifact or natural feature."
St. Lawrence (a Catholic, mind you) was commanded by the Roman emperor, Valerian, to gather up all the riches of the Church in Rome and turn them over to him; St. Lawrence asked for three days time to do this in and was granted it. During that time he went all around the city and gave away all the Church's wealth he could to the poor and at the end of three days presented a large group of the poor, the blind, the crippled, the sick and said, "Here, your Majesty, is the true treasure of the Church." St. Lawrence was roasted alive.
I offer this as a way of showing that yes, you and the Church are on the same page regarding that belief! In Catholicism we use the word "church" to mean many things: first, the entire people of God united in a common faith across the world (hence the world "catholic" which means "universal"), second meaning a certain group of those people, such as a diocese (a region) or a particular parish (a region within the diocese in which all within worship in the same building) and finally we usually call the building itself a "church" not because it is a church, but rather because that is the building where the Church gathers to BE Church, and that is the sole purpose of that building's existence. So, again, you and the Church are in agreement, at least as I am understanding you.
"God does say that we need fellowship with other followers, to worship and commune with God with spiritual family. "Church" however, is not in the curriculum. The modern interpretation of "church" is ridiculous so far from what Jesus intended."
Yes, God has certainly taught us this. I think it is important to observe, however, that Jesus Christ entrusted His Church "project" to the apostles (Peter most especially) and when you read the Book of Acts you see that besides community worship there were indeed decisions that had to be made (such as whether Gentile converts should be circumcised or not), there were correct teachings and incorrect teachings (Paul had trouble with people going around preaching a false gospel and misleading people), and other things that seem to go against the grain of what you are proposing here. I do not believe that Jesus' idea of the Church was a purely God-driven thing and we are just along for the ride; I believe that if the Church is indeed the Body of Christ just as the Bible teaches us, then it must be both fully-divine and fully-human, just as Christ was. That means yes, it is guided and enlivened completely by the Holy Spriit. But it is also manifested in the world in a human way, which means institutions, leaders, doctrines, etc. Just as Jesus was not man OR God but rather man AND God, the Church is not man OR God but man AND God, as it was in the beginning, in Eden, and as it is again and will be in Christ. At least, that's my take.
"The majority of pastors oppress their people diluting the gospel and God. Deciding who can and when it's ok to follow the spirit instead of letting God do what He will while trusting the congregation and his own discernment to decide weather or not someone is doing the will of God or not. The "pastor" is only supposed to be the guy everyone knows will certainly follow the Spirit, who leads and encourages others to do the same. Back in the day, there were more like several of these guys. They didn't set up sermons and decide what and how many songs they would sing. Church is what happens when believers get together and let the Spirit of God flow, singing, sharing testimony and the word of God, ministering to one another. Each person trusting their siblings to follow the Spirit while at the same time knowing that God will make sure that wolves get dealt with. Church is communal, out of the control of any man and led by the Holy Spirit of God."
I think the gist of my previous comment touches on much of what you bring up here. I would say, however, that you are right; far too many pastors and preachers get in God's way! Likewise many communities are so caught up in putting together a service that they forgot Who they are serving. Not to brag, but this is one thing I love about the Catholic Mass; the Church has, for the most part, already laid out the service. Likewise the Mass is not about the priest, but about Christ; the homily plays an important but relatively minor part when compared to the proclamation of the Word and then the Eucharist. While some priests still manage to steal the spotlight, it is much harder to do, and while some communities do get very caught up in preparing the liturgy (music, decor, etc.) it again is harder to get caught up in since so much is laid out clearly already.
"Yes I'm a little bitter, judge me."
I wouldn't DARE judge you; I don't know a thing about you save for what you have shared! I know only enough about you to love you; I couldn't possibly judge you based on so little! It is all right to be bitter about these matters however; Jesus can endure your bitterness for however long it takes to pass; He took the bitter wine on the Cross so He can take this and if He is willing, so am I! So, no apologies needed for your bitterness, and you needn't expect or fear my judgment.
"People want safety and religion over a radical and earth changing Jesus and so they build churches and hire people to create bible studies and lesson plans."
So people do indeed want this, but you are right; this isn't what Christ intended the Church to be. And I would argue that the Church doesn't intend this either, though these things do indeed happen. That is why it is so important to remain in the Church amid frustrations like this rather than leave or to start separate groups. In my own Church, for example, there are parishes exactly like you describe. But then you look down the street at the Missionary Sisters of Charity (Mother Theresa's order) and you see these young women all dressed in white, living as poor as anyone in a very dangerous part of the city, spending every dime they have on food for the homeless and giving poor children an education for little or no money at all. Or you see the man in the place where I live who has been a priest for nearly 70 years and though he can't walk and can hardly do a single thing on his own he still prays for dozens of people by name a day, plus he prays for the whole world on top of it. We are blessed in Catholicism to have the powerful witness of these radical, earth-changing men and women who show us every day by the very way they live that, yes, it is possible to take Jesus at His word and to live that life! And, let me tell you from my own personal experience, it is so joyful and worth every single sacrifice.
You mention several other criticisms--all of them are out there--and then state "This is the state of the current "church". Why would I want to be a part of that?"
Yes, who would want to? It seems to me that no one WANTS to be a part of such a church, but they get so comfortable or stuck in such a church that they have no idea where else to go. Or they are so frightened that they might chose the wrong church that they stay where they are at; after all a ship with a slow leak is better than one headed for a mine! But looking at your criticisms and admitting to having seen all of them, I have to say that at least in my experience of "church" they strike me as the exception to the rule. If ever you find yourself in Milwaukee sometime, message me and I would be over-joyed to show you some places where your notion of Church is what's going on!
"Please don't get me started on the "symbol of Christianity" they that pray to dead people as if they're God or have any say at all over the world of the living while telling people to say hail Mary's and go walking across the chapel on their knees until they bleed to get that lie they told 3 weeks ago forgiven. That "Church"? The one that believes you can work off miss deeds in purgatory to get into heaven if you weren't that bad of a person?"
These are criticism that frequently (of course!) get tossed at me regarding the Catholic Church (specifically Roman Catholicism; after all, the Catholic Church is a communion of 23 different Churches with their own traditions and ways of doing things!). This comment will be considerably longer if I were to try and respond to each of these things with the respect you deserve, but if you would like to at least get the "other side" of these observations you've made, feel free to message me about anything, whenever you wish. It can be hard (even for Catholics) to look at one of our devotions or practices and understand what is going on based purely on observation. I would say in brief that we don't pray to dead people as if they were God (that's blasphemy and breaks the First Commandment!), we don't do penance so that Jesus will forgive us (we can't earn His forgiveness; it is freely given to those who ask Him for it!), and Jesus clearly teaches that nothing unholy can enter into heaven, so being "not that bad" isn't going to cut it!
Sister, we are ALL horrible examples of Church, and the most truthful thing we can say to each other is, "You are a sinner, but I am the worst."
If you feel comfortable, please message me your first name; I would be so happy to pray for you! Otherwise, I'll just pray for you by username as I do many other Xangans, and I'll let God sort it out from there! Peace and blessing.
-Jacob
There is a darker side to Mother Theresa. But, this post, i really appreciate on the whole.
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga - ""If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to
the CHURCH; and if he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, let him be
to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."
I was wondering about this verse the other day. How is it that Jesus is telling His disciples how to deal with sinners by using the church, when the church did not even exist yet?
Just thinking out loud, but if you have an answer I'd like to hear it :)
I suppose I would have two thoughts about that. First is that He did
found it already, two chapters earlier, on Peter, so at least chronologically
the Church has already begun. So it seems this is His first lesson on this
Church idea He mentioned to Peter. I'm sure there was a whole lot more talk
about the Church that Matthew and others did not record, as John himself admits
(John 20:30 for example), but it seems clear that by the time we hear about the
Church frequently in Acts and the following letters, the Apostles aren't just
making things up as they go!
Another possibility is that since Matthew's Gospel was likely written
several decades after Jesus' public ministry, the author may have included this
teaching of Jesus as it was handed down to him, using the word
"church" to describe in a term more relevant to the author's audience
at the time though Jesus Himself might not have used it. This second though is
pure speculation, though!
My Bible offers this as a footnote:
"The church: the
second of the only two instances of this word in the gospels; see note
on Mt 16:18. Here it refers not to the entire church of Jesus, as in Mt 16:18,
but to the local congregation. Treat him…a Gentile or a tax collector: just as the observant Jew avoided
the company of Gentiles and tax collectors, so must the congregation of
Christian disciples separate itself from the arrogantly sinful member who
refuses to repent even when convicted of his sin by the whole church. Such a one is to be set outside the
fellowship of the community. The harsh language about Gentile and tax collector probably reflects a stage of the
Mattheanchurch when
it was principally composed of Jewish Christians. That time had long since
passed, but the principle of exclusion for such a sinner remained. Paul makes a
similar demand for excommunication in1 Cor 5:1–13."
And the note on Mt. 16:18- "Church: this word (Greek ekklēsia) occurs in the gospels only here and
in Mt 18:17 (twice). There are several possibilities for an Aramaic
original. Jesus’ church means
the community that he will gather
and that, like a building, will have Peter as its solid foundation. That
function of Peter consists in his being witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son
of the living God. The gates of the
netherworld shall not prevail against it: the netherworld (Greek Hadēs, the abode
of the dead) is conceived of as a walled city whose gates will not close in upon the
church of Jesus, i.e., it will not be overcome by the power of death."
We moved 20 times in 40 years due to my job and always went to church. We found all kinds and sizes of churches. We found that they were living the Christian life to the best of their ability, witnessed to others, taught the Bible, worshiped, and tried to help each other. I believe the majority of the members were followers of Jesus and loved him. I am not pessimistic about the average church or Christianity. There are many kinds of churches and most agree on the main points. Jesus and His teachings are always challenging. I love Phil 1:6 as an isolated out of context verse, because God has accepted the responsibility of having me ready to meet Jesus. I also like the book of Galatians. Legalism always sounds attractive, but it really is a drag.
I know many die in the world for their faith and are in prison. I hope when the persecution starts here, I will be ready to make the sacrifice that you describe so well.
blessings
frank
@lomal@xanga - We are not to keep the commandments - we are to go beyond the commandments. Jesus said a new commandment I give you that you love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU. Jesus come not to change the law but to fulfill. He loved beyond word and deed. He loved expecting nothing in return because it was the desire of his heart. He truely went a step beyond the commandments and didn't change or do away with a single one of them. He tells us we must worship in spirit and in truth. The truth is most of us do not how to worship in truth or spirit. Their is teacher very few us go to - The Holy Spirit. The scriptures say the Spirit will lead you into ALL truth. We are not to go to church - we are to be the church to a lost and seeking world.
I quite Christianity. I am a recovering Pharisee going through the 12 steps back to Christ. I do not have a religion. I have a relationship with a friend who is closer than a brother. He goes beyond that and invites us all to be co-equal with everything he is. If you don't believe me, read His message to all mankind - start with the gospel of John - In the beginning.... I look forward to meeting many new friends, friends who are closer than brothers willing to give all to get even more - everlasting life and the blessed peace that passes all understanding. You can have now, right here, right now!
@Denis Corder@facebook - Hello! Before I respond may I ask as to which of my comments you are responding to, or are you just responding in general to all of them? I only ask so that I understand your comment correctly before I respond. Thank you, and God bless!
I am no longer 'Christian,' I am a follower of this Jesus: Matthew 8:20. Church in my Book is Matthew 18:20. Now, Dennis... I can appreciate where you're coming from having met a few Catholics in my walk. With all due respect, Catholics are merely in front of a long line of churches, and that's debatable. Unendingly debatable. Here's the bottom line for me. All churches have their own avenue to achieve discipleship, and I appreciate the baptism of the Holy Ghost in the Sacrament Confirmation. Every significant division in the body of Christ has an avenue to attain discipleship. What I have found is that Jesus' door into discipleship (John 8:30-31) is embraced within His divinity argument captured between John 8:12 and John 8:47. It stands to reason. Jesus said He is the light of the world in John 8:12, and once again in John 9:5. These both affirm "I and my father are one" John 10:30 as I have come to learn.
Within Jesus' divinity argument between John 8:12 and John 8:47, He said two witnesses testify to His authenticity (John 8:18). Witnesses testify. John 8:38 Jesus was speaking of something He 'saw' with His father. This is Jesus' testimony. The second testimony is found in John 8:40 where Jesus said He 'heard' the truth from His father. What did Jesus see, and what did His father tell Him? A disciple should be able to answer those questions considering He offered discipleship to His believers (John 8:30, John 8:31). In fact, Jesus offered the truth that makes His believers free (John 8:32). If one cannot elaborate on these two testimonies, then one is a believer, respectfully. And, being a believer is a great thing.
The very concept that Jesus offered His door to be His disciple sends shock waves through the foundation of churches, no exceptions. Much less than actually opening the door to His assailants' moot court between John 8:12 and John 8:47 where He authenticated His divinity (John 10:30). From believer, to disciple: John 8:30, John 8:31, quite clear, His words. To even consider the existence of His door into discipleship sends tremors through faith paradigms. Neither Catholics, nor Protestants can answer these two question: what was Jesus' testimony (John 8:38), what was His Father's testimony (John 8:40). I propose we have vast multitudes of believers in disciples' clothing, although believing is a great thing, indeed.
Jesus said about discipleship that a believer's eyes will be 'see,' and ears will 'hear' in Matthew 13:16, and He spoke of the immense value of being a disciple in the next verse, Matthew 13:17. It is not an undesignated coincidence that 'seeing' and 'hearing' correlate with that which Jesus 'saw' with His father, and that which Jesus 'heard' from His father. The two divine testimonies (John 8:38, John 8:40) of two supreme witnesses (John 8:18). Furthermore, the truth that makes a believer free (John 8:32) was specifically referenced in 2Timothy 2:14, 15.
I don't have 'church' doctrine to defend on the matter of attaining discipleship, I don't belong to one other than Matthew 18:20. On the other hand, and with all respect Dennis, you do. And, you're in good company with all of the Protestant churches, respectfully. You will have to give up your 'faith' to even consider the mere existence Jesus' door for believers to convert into discipleship (John 8:30, 31). I suggest re-considering Matthew 13:15. I'm not church bashing in any way, brother Dennis, Jesus forbade (Matthew 18:6, 7). You might offer conversion into Catholicism, but Jesus offered conversion into His discipleship. WIth equal respect, so do all the Protestant churches.