Thursday, 11 August 2011
-
I Don't Understand: Why Did Jesus Die, and What Do I Have to Do With It?
He was this great man, full of life, and love, compassion and hope. He was so young, with a young man’s sense of humor, and young man’s sense of injustice, and a young man’s conviction, and aplomb to love. And they didn’t just kill him, they tortured and humiliated him. And he hung in agony for so long, his loved ones watching helplessly, his mother crying. And I don’t understand why.
I mean – he died for inciting insurrection -- no, I get that. Lots of people throughout history have died unjustly and in horrible fashion, but this one is on my shoulders? I somehow own some responsibility in this because he chose to die for me? To forgive my what? I don't understand!
So I set out to read the whole story from the beginning -- maybe, if I could just understand what sin is, what God wants, then I could understand the death of this man and how I am involved.
I’m through Leviticus. I understand nothing significant about what sin is, how I am free of it, or why it is so important to God. When I was an Atheist my working definition of sin was “anything bad” -- things you know you’re not supposed to do, but you do anyway. Immorality, in other words. Now, morality is somewhat subjective, but I very rarely ever do anything that would cause me to feel guilt. I’m not perfect, but I try hard to be a good person.
And yet I understand that I've done something so unforgivable that God can’t accept me into relationship without atonement through this sacrifice? How have I offended God that badly? And how does sacrifice atone for it? God required sacrafices of atonement from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were not righteous people. But it wasn’t their behavior they atoned for -- their sacrifices were offerings in exchange for blessings and favor. He required sacrifice from the Israelites -- offerings and atonement. The tabernacle must have looked and smelled like a slaughterhouse. What kind of holy temple does that make?
God laid out these rules for them (and breaking God's rules is sin?): be socially responsible -- yes I get that one! Be hygienic -- agreed! Be good to each other -- yes! Don’t eat cloven footed animals -- what? Stay away from sick people -- that seems kind of harsh. Pay your taxes to the priests -- I don’t know about this, God. You’re unclean if you ejaculate or menstruate -- wait just a damn minute! Did you “design” me in a way you find abhorrent?
They taught my son at Bible camp that God made him so complex out of love. They taught the children of Israel that they were disgusting and wicked by their very nature, and God is so displeased with them about it that he won’t forgive them until they kill a goat.
But its okay; my son doesn’t have to kill a goat -- because of Jesus’s sacrifice.
I don't understand. I want to believe. I want to continue the path of peace and purpose I began by studying, searching for, and learning about God. But the most important part of Christianity -- the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal savior -- "Savior" is the very part I don’t understand.
I’m digging deep into the corporate confessions spoken by congregations around the world. If I have time I will update you about what I’m discovering regarding the “sins” modern man asks forgiveness for and how they are similar and dissimilar to the sins of God’s original law. But I’m looking for the thread that ties it together -- the piece that says God is eternal and unchanging, the epiphany that brings it all home -- and I have faith that if I keep looking I’ll find it.
But you should pray for me. I’m not yet saved.
How do you answer these questions? Why did Jesus die? How do our sins influence the crucifixion of Jesus, His death and resurrection? In addition, how would you clarify the existence of the Levitical rules in scripture and why we no longer follow them?
Post a Comment
- Back to revelife's Revelife Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in revelife's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)



Recommend



Comments (24)
Jesus died as a sacrifice to replace all of the lambs and doves and everything else the Israelites used to sacrifice. I don't know if our sins influence Jesus' death and resurrection as much as God wanting to forgive our sins does.
Sin can be summed up in the 10 Commandments. A good question I like to go by is "does this glorify God?" I'm focused less on what is sin, and more on what is it that God wants.
A verse in the New Testament (It's in one of the Gospels, I can find you the exact verse if you want it) says that not a word will be removed from the Law until the end of time. So obviously, these laws, as strange as they seem, have to be important today. I can't tell you what rules should still be in effect today, I haven't done a ton of research on this stuff. But I've heard a lot of people say they don't follow the rules about not eating pig and similar laws because they think God made them for health reasons. Now that we know the proper way to cook meat, they say the laws don't need to be followed. Whether this is true or not, I really don't know.
Hope I helped a little :)
The Bible uses a lot of images to describe the significance of Jesus' death. Some of them emphasize sin; others do not. No one picture is complete.
Here is a post I wrote a while back that tried to provide some big-picture answers to this question: How Does Jesus' Death Save Anyone?
Yeah, that's the main thing that has always boggled my mind about Christianity. The best interpretation I can come up with is that he let people murder him even though he didn't have to, and since he didn't need this "good" karma that came his way by suffering, it is symbolically bestowed upon all of us as forgiveness. But then why does it only apply to people who came after instead of before him? It's not like we can control when we were born in relation to Jesus. Why aren't other equal to worse atrocities committed to other people counted as redemption of sin? My most important question is: How did Jesus' torture, humiliation, betrayal, and murder benefit us? He easily could have avoided it and gone on to do more good in the world, or you know... leave more evidence of his Saviorness :P He could have just never died so that nobody would have to rely on "faith" to believe his story. As far as I'm concerned, there have been many martyrs. I'm not quite sure why his suffering surpasses anyone else's, other than in symbolic/interpretive ways. *shrugs*
I think religions enjoy maintaining their mysteries.
God only accepts perfection into heaven. When we invite the Holy Spirit in, God sees perfection. Adam sinned and ruined what we were created to be. We are born imperfect. As soon as we are old enough to understand this, we are accountable for ourselves to Him. The only way to become sinless is through sacrifice. The blood of lambs only held off judgement, it did not justify the OT saints. Jesus' sacrifice justified them also. We are saved by faith in Him. Rejection of Him is what condemns us.
Jesus also said that all the law can be hung on these two things: Love the Lord with everything in you (all your heart, all your mind, all your strength, all your will) and do unto others as you would have done unto you.
I tried to sum that up as simply as possible. The thing with God is, the more you learn the more you realize there is to know! The Bible is full of symbolism, prophecy, connections and over and over, types of Christ.
@OstentatiousEloquence@xanga - According to the Bible, Jesus preached to those who came before, after He died, and those souls were "in prison". The reason His sacrifice is more significant than others who suffered greatly is because Jesus was God in the flesh, born of a virgin, not just a regular human nice guy. He was the only human who was perfect, he was the only human who was God.
God became human in order to truly identify with us- the Incarnation means that God became human in every way. Even to the point of suffering together with us, and dying together with us.
And because God, in human flesh, died together with us, and rose- in human flesh- from the dead, all flesh has been resurrected. Because God died with us, we are resurrected with God.
Regarding your comments about Leviticus. We're picturing a nomadic desert society here, without any kind of antibiotics or vaccinations. The Levitical laws present a nuanced and effective culture of hygiene, sanitation, and quarantine: rules that are very well-suited to their environment.
Quarantine people with infectious diseases, as well as those who are at special risk for catching infectious disease? Poop in pit latrines, well outside of the camp? Wash your hands after handling a corpse? Is this so terrible? Even the not-eating of pork and shellfish... in a desert, with no refrigeration, trichinosis and food-poisoning are real dangers. Putting an outright ban on potentially deadly foods is not unreasonable.
I know some people get hang-ups about the idea of infectious diseases, bodily excretions, deadly parasites and corpses being "unclean." But I don't understand how these things could possibly be considered "clean." Customs that you call harsh, I call healthy.
In a harsh environment, where people are radically dependent on one another for survival, bad relationships can be deadly. Not necessarily because people will kill each other, but because if they're unwilling to cooperate and if they can't trust one another, they might all starve.
So, if one member of the community offends another, it is really important that there be a community-sanctioned way for the two to be immediately reconciled. Really important. Life-and-death important.
The Levitical laws are a form of this. And they're pretty similar to the cultural norms of modern Abrahamic desert religions. Some of the penalties are very harsh. But not as harsh as starvation, which really is the result of unreconciled strife.
So when you offend another, you reconcile by offering something valuable. And in nomadic desert culture, nothing is so valuable as an animal. And then you eat it together- the sacrifice nourishes both of the parties being reconciled.
Which is why the tabernacle was a slaughterhouse. All those animals being sacrificed to God? They were being killed, cooked, and eaten. These sacrifices to God were literally, physically, gastronomically nourishing and sustaining the entire community.
So we offer these livestock in order to be reconciled to one another, and we offer these livestock in order to be reconciled to God. And the very act of reconciliation puts food in our bellies. It brings us life and health. In a very, very, very physical and non-metaphorical way.
So we think of salvation in these very abstract terms of getting not judged for bad things we done (which seem to be arbitrarily, not intrinsically bad), getting covered up in enough gossamer for the Judge to let us in.
But the problem is very physical. The problem is death. God's response is very physical. He became human. He died. He rose again. He pulled our very human body up out of the grave. Not in some symbolic, metaphorical way. He actually united our flesh with his holiness, and raised our flesh from the dead.
Sin is a problem in the desert because sin causes strife, and strife without reconciliation causes death. This aspect of the desert extends beyond the desert. Sin is a problem because it leads to death. It kills us. Not metaphorically or abstractly. Physically. Literally.
The Gospel Saint John is much more clear about the mission of Christ than the Old Testament.
Also, a compendium on the meaning of the Bible written by a reputable source is also recommended. Since the Catholic Church compiled and published the Bible back in the 5th century, it is a great source of information on Christianity.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is an outstanding reference on the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Here is the Catechism's first incredible sentence:
1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in
himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him
share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in
every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know
him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men,
scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church.
To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son
as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to
become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his
blessed life.
LINK
Study up on God's holiness, and it'll start to make sense. Good luck!
what boggles my mind is how sin is a collective offense against God, but salvation is an individual choice. if Jesus has already died and been resurrected, the debt has already been paid. what role does my acceptance play? i didn't choose to be born into original sin, so why should it be left up to me to be saved? what kind of omnipotent deity would leave something as important as eternal life up to a bunch of horribly flawed and, in comparison, utterly stupid beings? even some of the worst parents in the world know that when their children don't have the faculty or understanding to make a decision, the choice is left up to them, and it's their responsibility to choose what is best (even if the children don't want it).
What may really boggle the mind later on is that first God created Jesus knowing that man would sin and God would condemn all future man because of the results of the first man and the one he created just for the purpose of dying for our salvation now defies the very definition of love. You will read farther in the Bible that God not only is love, meaning he did not create it but is this, but love is defined as not holding a grudge (unless you do not take Jesus into your heart) does not keep a record of wrongs, protects, except from the actions of the devil who can steal God's children's souls without them even knowing it.....EVEN if you are a Christian, love never fails (except from real protection from the devil) and it does not boast and is not proud..................except for when it comes to Jesus and doing what he was sent/created/meant to do for us and then all bets are off.
And if you think he was in agony while being tortured "for so long" I have some real gruesome stories of men who died worse deaths to protect their brothers.
But also from his death comes the conundrum of, according to 1 Peter 3:16 and Apostolic Creed Jesus descended into Hell before going to Heaven. Problem with this story is that it is as old as the virgin mother birth story. Hercules, you know what, the list is soooooo long of those who preceded his trip into Hell to save souls and such that I will not even list it. A quick google will satisfy you that this journey was first performed by an alleged deity some 2000 years before Jesus
Seems to me that the real question might be why make this stuff up? If love is this then why is God who is Love doing that? How can something that cannot be seen or understood by mere man be defined in understandable words written by a bunch of sheep herders meant for the same be taken as ABSOLUTE by us who know what a toilet is and how it works?
Good luck in your quest.love justmarty
We focus so much on what happened on the cross. But, was it really necessary? I mean, if God is perfect, all knowing, all caring, able to create worlds without number, why would he create something that meant 3/4 of his creation would banish in hell, or tartarus, the grave. Is it possible for a perfect God to create such a scenerio? Is it more reasonable to think his plan was to have all of us be with him eventually, and human actions simply have gotten in the way of his original plan? And there are tortuous deaths happening all around the world that we know of. Millions of his children that will never hear the plan of salvation in this life. So that leaves only one conclusion to me. It need not be in this life that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess....And there may very well be punishment meted out before we are all with him. I have found over 50 scriptures that allude to universal salvation. I will leave this post with but one, Luke 3:6 All mankind will see God's salvation.
@mtngirlsouth@xanga - Why were souls held in prison before Jesus' coming, but those who sinned at an equal level to them after his coming did not have to endure a wait in "prison" because Jesus had already come and they could choose to redeem themselves on his behalf in a much more timely matter?
So the human form of God (Jesus), besides being a self-acknowledged God, is more perfect than a murdered fetus who has never even had a chance to sin, or a developmentally challenged baby born to a drug addict, or a brutally raped and murdered little child?
Basically my question is this: HOW is Jesus' suffering somehow greater than many others who have suffered in the history of this world who have also endured equal to greater torture, JUST BECAUSE HE IS DIVINE? The connection would make more sense to me if some kind of Savior were present during many of history's great tragedies, as opposed to one time, and had suffered right along with as well as saving the lives of many people. Mother Theresa comes to mind, or Gandhi. Someone more heroic.
@OstentatiousEloquence@xanga - "Why were souls held in prison before Jesus' coming, but those who sinned at an equal level to them after his coming did not have to endure a wait in "prison" because Jesus had already come and they could choose to redeem themselves on his behalf in a much more timely matter?"
We must back up a bit. Before Jesus came, there were those who were faithful (yet still as humans imperfect) and those who rejected God. The faithful ones needed the same sacrifice we all do, only He had not come yet so they had to use goats. After He came, their sins could then be forgotten forever. Anyone else who did not have faith went to hell, where they await the Great White Throne of Judgement, at which time they will then go to the lake of fire. Hell = jail, Lake of fire = prison, that makes it easier to understand. The prison mentioned earlier - waiting for Jesus, was the paradise side of Hades. This is from the words of Jesus in Luke, 16: 19 - 31. So it was not like prison the way you may think of it.
"So the human form of God (Jesus), besides being a self-acknowledged God, is more perfect than a murdered fetus who has never even had a chance to sin, or a developmentally challenged baby born to a drug addict, or a brutally raped and murdered little child? "
Yes. Because that fetus is pure human. Jesus was born of a virgin, because he had no human father. He, God, entered the womb of Mary and lived a perfect life as a man. But He was God. He was perfect. Whatever Adam was in the garden of Eden, when he sinned, all that changed. Imperfection was added. Sickness, disease, death became possible. And that was passed on to every human after. God lived as a human, in a body capable of death, so He could do what no human could - be a perfect sacrifice.
As for those unborn babies, and even little ones after birth; All through the bible it is made evident that innocent children get a free pass when it comes to heaven. (2 Samuel 12:19 - 23Jeremiah 19:4-5Jonah 4:11)
"HOW is Jesus' suffering somehow greater than many others who have suffered in the history of this world who have also endured equal to greater torture, JUST BECAUSE HE IS DIVINE? "
His divinity is the thing that made His sacrifice valid, because He was 100% without any sin, and not under the curse of Adam. And no one suffered more than He did that day. He, perfect God Who never knew sin, had all the sins of every human for all time put on Him at that moment. THAT was torture for Him. Also, He was beat to the point you could not even tell He was human. The fact that He did not die is testament to His divinity. His suffering was more than any human can imagine.
"The connection would make more sense to me if some kind of Savior were present during many of history's great tragedies, as opposed to one time, and had suffered right along with as well as saving the lives of many people. Mother Theresa comes to mind, or Gandhi. Someone more heroic."
But He did suffer right along with them. And He will reward in the judgement. If HE came and saved everyone, people would not believe in Him, love Him, because they chose Him; They would believe in Him and profess love to have a good life. When you take into account the fact that Jesus could see all through time, even you, He could see all the people who would hate Him, and reject Him, and yet still gave Himself for the few who would accept Him, even though most would not really appreciate the suffering He went through, and even though most would reject it anyway - He was still willing to do that to make it possible. To me, that is pretty heroic. Especially when He could have just made a bunch of robots who would do exactly as programmed and serve Him always without question. Instead, He chose to allow us that freedom of choice.
@SirNickDon@xanga - "The Bible uses a lot of images to describe the significance of Jesus' death. Some of them emphasize sin; others do not. No one picture is complete."
No one picture is complete, but all of them combined complete the canvas.
When you get to the end of the Book, you'll understand how it all ties together.
@mtngirlsouth@xanga - I appreciate your obvious efforts in trying to help me understand the concept of Jesus' divine suffering, but I really don't feel my questions are answered. That said, I think you did your best and there may not be a more acceptable explanation for me.
@OstentatiousEloquence@xanga - I am sorry I did not answer sooner, I only just saw this. You are welcome, any time!
Have you ever told a lie? What does that make you? A liar. Have you ever stolen anything? If so, what does that make you? A thief! Have you ever used God's name in vain? That's blashemy (very serious offence to God) Jesus said, whoever looks with lust at someone, has commited adultery with them in their heart. Have you ever done that? If you say yes to all of the above you are a liar, thief, blashemer, and an adulterer at heart. If God judged you by that standard would you be innocent or guilty? (guilty!) Should God send you to heaven or to hell? Because your crimes against God are against an infinitely holy God, the punishment is infinite! Jesus suffered infinitely more than any human ever could or will, because when He was on the cross, he suffered spiritually as well as physically. He bore the full wrath of God against our sins. He did this so that God does not have to punish you as a lying theif etc. Because of Jesus sacrifice, he can commute your death sentence and allow you to live with HIm in heaven. If you will repent (turn from your sins) and trust in Christ, then all of your sins are placed on Christ on the cross,and the perfect sinless life that he lived can then be credited to your account. God confirmed this by raising HIm from the dead. The hard part now is, will you humble yourself to admit that you have sinned against God and turn from your sins and embrace Him as saviour and Lord? Jesus said ..the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
1.) God is Perfect, Good and Clean
2.) We, by nature of the Fall, are subject to temptation. We all make a bad choice eventually.3.) Bad choices have consequences. It's called Justice. The consequence for sin is to be shut out from the presence of Heavenly Father.4.) Christ, having done no sin, could die and satisfy the demands of Justice for us. He had no debt of His own, so He could pay our debts. This means that we do not suffer the eternal consequences for sin. This is called Mercy5.) He has devised a system of laws and ordinances, stepping stones to becoming like Him and His Father. If we choose to do them, He makes up the difference between our abilities and our potential. We receive Mercy. If we choose not to do them, we are exposed to the whole consequence of our actions. We receive Justice.Likewise, Christ chose to experience all suffering, all sickness, all hurt and even death so that we might know that we can trust Him. He has been where we are, and He knows the way out.
Through Christ, we can receive Salvation, Joy, and comfort. That is why He is the Savior. He lived a perfect life, wrought a perfect atonement, and now looks after and guides His brothers and sisters safely home.
this is how i see it. God sent Himself to earth as man (Jesus) He was put in front of all sorts of temptation, just like you and i have. but what separates His life from yours and mine is He resisted all of those temptations, He lead a perfect(blameless) life....which means He shouldnt have died, for the wages of sin is death....but He never sinned....NOT ONE TIME! but He still died. not for His sins, but for OUR sins!!! He made the ultimate sacrifice, so that not only the isrealites, but EVERYONE could be forgiven, and so everyone who accepted His sacrifice would enter into His kingdom when our time comes.
i know this whole concept of Heaven and God and sin and forgiveness can seem pretty far fetched, but can you honestly say without a doubt, we are the only ones in the entire universe, we(humans) are as good as it gets?? i know that cant be right, i know there is something MUCH bigger than you and i out there, and i believe that something is God. this life we have...its just the beginning of something much much greater than we could ever imagine, we just have to accept the sacrifice God made. its like if you had a club, you wouldnt want people to join if they didnt believe in what the club stood for or didnt think the club even existed....thats why you have to believe in God to get to heaven....good deeds wont get you there, you could be the best good person in the world, but without accepting Christ, its useless once you die.
I'm not sure if anyone else said this, but stop reading leviticus! Skip to John, then read the rest of the gospels and then the rest of the new testament. and THEN go back and read the old stuff. If you're not a believer and are trying to learn through reading the bible, the worst place to start is thebeginning. In skimming the rest of the comments, Id say there's nothing left for me to add. Keep searching and you will find truth.