Without grace (read seeing this as God) it is easier for darkness to enter our lives.  For some this absence is a signal flare for trouble.  Having him in our lives is sort of like going to AA meetings.....but different, sort of.

I think most atheists would sit a little better with belief in our father if proponents of him stopped beating their chests screaming they are right and everyone who does not believe some of the fantastical stories of the Bible, which defy all logic for things ANY of us have seen in our lifetime, our parents life time or pretty much anyone has seen all the way back in time before toilets and pillow soft Charmin, is headed for Hell.

Atheists know what love is.  Christianity does not have an exclusive on this and the sooner we Christians get over that the better we learn to love, accept and deal with the reality that acknowledging the gift of our father is not something that some have found yet. 

@JandJinJapan@xanga - RYC:  Without God, and without his being the centre of life, conscience, and moral compass, there's really only one place such a life will end up.

What of Joshua in Jericho?  I read God gave him/them the land.  I might have missed the verse that said take it regardless of the loss of human life.  Innocent travelers passing through town at the time, out of town family visiting just kill them all?  Seems to me the true goodness and love of the father of all would have brokered some different deal other than death to all.  I learned the solution from my mom and dad as a young child.  They taught me to share my things with my brothers and sisters especially if they were using them first.

Gandhi certainly knew who Christ was, but rejected the religion named for him, are you saying his life was not good?  A.N. Windham knew God, and all of us and heard of Christ and helped save us all.  Are you saying her life was a waste as well?  

"Yet many of us feel intuitively and existentially that murder is not just inexpedient, but wrong all the way through."

Valid points and thought provoking but one key thing should be considered.  Biblically speaking, God is not concerned with "good' people.  Good people do not go to Heaven.  People who realize that they are a broken people who are not perfect and put their faith in God are the ones who go to Heaven.  Being a "good" person does not really have anything to do with knowing or being familiar with the Christian-Judeo God and even the Bible seems to support that.  I think that have a faith and relationship with God just gives a deeper desire to become a better person for reasons other than because they sense that is the way that it should be.

I see it as 'good and bad' depending very, very much on the person. We can't all agree on what is good and bad, such as in ethics, and there isn't always a "go to book" for every situation (and even then, books can be interpreted differently by each person). I feel that in order to be 'good', you must weigh all options, consider everyone/thing that is affected, and do what FEELS right. I go more with my instinct and what I feel is right, although to someone else it might be wrong.

This can be applied to nearly any issue in life, be it something simple like "should I steal this one, little stapler from this multi-billion dollar business that pollutes the Earth and pays me below minimum wage" or something more complex (and controversial) like "is it okay to be gay". People are going to be all over both sides of both of those examples, and even if you turn to a religious text to look for answers, often times the religious text has contradictory answers.

I don't want to be good because someone tells me I have to nor because I will go burn somewhere later for it. I want to be good because I ENJOY it, because I don't like hurting others, because I wouldn't want others to be bad to me. Am I making any sense? (It's a little late lol!)

@JandJinJapan@xanga -

This might not be a very helpful answer, but I personally think the idea of good and bad is subjective. It's not necessarily the same for everyone. Sometimes it has to do with the way the person was raised, other times someone might just interpret something differently. But I think humanity has come to an agreement when it comes to certain things that would be considered bad, such as rape, murder, abuse, theft, etc. We don't really need a god to tell us not to rape, kill, abuse, or steal from each other because that's common sense.

Besides, the "moral basis" God presents isn't exactly a decent one to live by. If you haven't noticed, there's a lot of disgusting shit in the Bible. I grew up believing in God, attending church on a regular basis, and really considering myself a true Christian. But I can honestly say I feel as though I'm a much better person now, as an atheist, than I was before. 

People can be good without God. I think I'm a good person, for the most part. I have faults but so does everyone. And I really don't think the fact that I'm an atheist should make you automatically assume I'm some terrible person, because that's just ignorant.

Also, I'm pretty sure Hitler wasn't an atheist. Besides, it's not just atheists who could potentionally become the next Hitler or Stalin, you know. Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Scientologists, whoever - ANYBODY could turn around and become a mass-murderer and ruin millions of lives, no matter what religion they subscribe to. Like I said, just because someone has a different belief doesn't mean they deserve to be judged and looked down upon.

I remember the moment that I decided not to believe in religion.

I was in Sunday School.I asked: "What if someone is a good person but doesn't believe in God?" and I was told that those people go to hell.
I decided right then that if there was a higher power that created everyone and loved everyone, it wouldn't send people to hell for not believing in it. 

Just for the sake of argument: Is it possible that humanity has a natural understanding of good and bad BECAUSE they were created by God in his image as the Bible suggests? I'm not even asking if it's probable. But is it possible? If so, then that gives every human being the opportunity to CHOOSE whether to be good or bad in every situation whether they believe in God or not. I think that Atheists and Christians can agree that they know Christians who are capable of doing wrong and know Atheists who are capable of doing good. I think that's a no brainer that supports my first proposition. The question isn't, "who are better people, atheists or Christians?". It's "how does (or would) a relationship with God effect me personally?". The fact that good and evil does exist (even if you believe it is subjective you at least admit it exists) is something that we can all agree upon. But let's rationally look at all the possibilities. How can you give 100% proof God doesn't exist? And I can give you 100% proof why he does exist.

@TheyCallMePaulNow@xanga - Yeah, I don't want to hang out with God. But I don't want to go to Hell either...

Well, I would have to disagree with the whole "atheists usually use a shell method and don't readily defend".

Generally, I find religious defenders much less credible, filled with much more fallacies, unsupportable claims, and obtuse thinking when compared to an atheist. Honestly, if an atheist cannot readily support their position with scientific and philosophical argument, then that person is more of a superficial atheist or agnostic. Being an atheist requires education.

Here, I see the comments in favor of god, and can see such logical and argumentative problems....the answers are good superficially...But when you scrutinize them...they don't hold up.

In the end everyone has their own beliefs, and I respect that as an atheist. But that shouldn't be mistaken with me not trying to raise a good argument.

@JandJinJapan@xanga - Amen

@TheyCallMePaulNow@xanga - Force me to do what? I don't believe in heaven or hell or god, but for the sake of argument say I believed in all of those things - there should be a third option. 

I don't get why it's so hard for people to conceive of morality without God. How does the thought of murder make you feel? Would you want to live in a world where murder was considered perfectly acceptable? If anyone who was capable of doing so were allowed to end your life, on a whim? Scary thought, right? That's how it makes us feel. Scared, insecure. So, it's "wrong". It's based on a subjective feeling, so it's an opinion. But with something like murder, one opinion about it is so popular, and so many are so passionate about it, that for all effects and purposes, it may as well just be called "wrong". The problem in making that assumption, however, is that we then mistakenly establish that true "right" and "wrong" exist, and attempt to apply those terms to things which are not as widely agreed upon.