I hate to say it, but I really do. I can't stand it. I think the focus of American Christianity is all wrong, I believe it goes about things the wrong way, and I believe that it's intrusive to others. Let me explain.
American Christianity is the reason why LGBTs still do not have equal rights in America. American Christianity is the reason why helpful programs such as Planned Parenthood face extinction due to defunding (I'm 100% against the defunding of PP, though they do provide abortions they also do a whole lot of good, and none of their public funding goes to abortion anyway). It is the reason why school children aren't getting proper education in the science classroom. The list goes on and on.
The way I see it is this: American Christianity couldn't care less about the well being of others or the state of other people's souls. All they care about is the Bible being legislated and forced on the general public through the government. American Christians aim for theocracy, so to speak, and they will stop at nothing to attain this.
Nothing makes me madder than Christians trying to legislate Christianity. Jesus Christ never legislated the Gospel and discouraged it. Why did God give every individual free will if he wanted his word to be the law of the land? That right there is a contradiction in and of itself. Not everyone is a Christian, and the Christian moral code does not apply to non-Christians, so why should it be legislated?
America was not founded as a Christian nation, despite what they say. America's government has always been a secular state, and everyone has always been allowed to practice whatever religion they want (despite some American Christians claiming "freedom of religion" means freedom to be Catholic or Protestant). I think it's time for mainstream American Christianity to examine itself in the mirror, get out of the business of legislating Christianity, and get back to the business of winning souls to Christ. Alas, that won't happen and I know it's just wishful thinking (due to the inability of the typical American Christianity to separate patriotism and religion), so whatever. I'm glad I'm not associated with it. I'll just say that.
Do you think that all of American Christianity is in search of a theocracy, or is it just the vocal majority? Are there Christians in America that are doing good and serving others without being intrusive?
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Comments (107)
Your vitriol lacks nuance.
Let's have that sexy chick LoBornLytesThoughtPolice weigh in on this.
I wouldn't say this post is about American Christianity per se. It has more to do with how Christians, American or otherwise, act on their beliefs in a modern world. American Christianity, if anything, is dumbing it down. American Christianity is watering down the Gospel to be a part of the world rather than set apart from it, twisting it to justify living in ways that God clearly condemns, and basically making themselves feel good. That's American Christianity for you.
"American Christianity is the reason why LGBTs still do not have equal rights in America"
I can't say this is untrue entirely. However, I do think you're being grossly unfair. I am 100% positive that there are atheists/agnostics/non-Christians/non-Catholics/people of other religions/etc that are also voting against it. You can't honestly believe that 100% of the voters voting against it are true Christians and Catholics, right?
I will say that through conversation with some of the level headed, polite Christians & non-Christians who support LGBT's like you, I have began to rethink some things. Not the morality of it but the legality of it. And I thought about it this way - what if Islam were to one day become the religion of the majority, would I want it to be law in my own country that I had to cover nearly all my body, etc. So I'm beginning to change my view there. In that change comes tolerance for sure. Just not promotion of the lifestyle.
"American Christianity is the reason why helpful programs such as Planned Parenthood face extinction due to defunding (I'm 100% against the defunding of PP, though they do provide abortions they also do a whole lot of good..."
Here, I can 100% see why you and others feel that it is the legislation of religion. I can't say that there isn't a smidge of that. However - I do know there are groups from ALL walks of life (LGBT, Atheist, etc) that do NOT support abortion. (I say abortion instead of PP because abortion is a major reason why PP isn't supported.) So let's not give sole credit to Christians there. That's another unfair over generalization you're making. Let's also not forget that abortion isn't the ONLY issue people have with PP. There are serious allegations against PP that they do not fully inform women of their unborn children's state of growth, they sometimes knowingly give FALSE information to women about their abortions and their unborn child's state of growth, that they do not seek aid for women who are victims of rape or who are victimized by MUCH older men (not boyfriends 2-3 years older). Furthermore, there is research out that gives scientific evidence that women who have abortions have a much BIGGER percentage rate of DYING from breast cancer - that rate is incalculably high for teenagers who have a family history of breast cancer. What woman deserves to have THAT information left out before making a choice. Is it really a choice if they aren't completely & truthfully informed of all the dangers to themselves? Or completely & truthfully informed of the growth of their child at that particular point in pregnancy? (Some of them even ASK about the child themselves & are LIED to. It's been caught on camera.) So this is only about religion to a degree.
"It is the reason why school children aren't getting proper education in the science classroom."
Huh? Neither Creationism nor ID is taught in schools. ONLY evolution is taught. So I don't get how you've reached your conclusion in order to give this statement. No judgement - just saying I don't understand your stance here.
Now, I've been respectful of your beliefs. I'm not trying to change your mind. Just explain from my viewpoint in hopes of reaching an understanding so that we can know where the other is coming from & then respectfully agree to disagree.
I do wonder - what does Christianity look like in your view in another country? What should it look like in America or anywhere? I know that no Christian has all the answers nor do they have their own walk with God 100% right with God. We're human and so that is impossible. So I guess I get frustrated when I hear all the judgment and criticism. We're human & sometimes we really do the best we can (though I don't believe anyone gives their best ALL the time in religion or other aspects of life).
Great post. Although it's not only in America. Australia is headed that way too. It's scary. :(
Personally, I don't think Christians should be in the business of legislating their religion. I believe they should focus more on evangelism and charity rather than politics. Unfortunately, that is not what happens in America. I'm not saying here is much better in that department, I'd still like to see more charity and service projects from the churches here. However, that's where I think the focus should be, and not in the government.
@StatelessPilot - I can respect that. I also agree that Christians, churches, etc (myself very much included) need to be more involved & more helpful. I wonder how different my life would be & if I'd see God's work in my life and the lives of others more firsthand if I were out there doing more.
I think in regards to legislation, people legislate what they're passionate about. I'm not saying you're right or wrong or that I am. I'm just saying that's human nature. So I hope you'll be able to see how it happens.
So many current affairs could be debated in this world & sometimes we can't know the right answer or the wrong. Even if people agree on the goals they don't agree on measures taken to achieve them.
Thank you for staying polite.
I wouldn't generalize it to accuse American Christians. Its just a general misuse of the gospel. Yeah its true that there are Christians who condemn more than they show grace, who basically shun sinners and non-believers (somewhat similar to pharisee's if you think about it), and who don't reflect Christ to others (the love of Christ, the grace He showed us).
But at the same time i think its not right to leave it alone or shun it. Remember, as broken as some Christians may be, they are still brothers and sisters in Christ. And because they are, we should be actively involved with them. If they need rebuke, if they need encouragement, if they need to refocus on the gospel, we should be able to humbly come to them and build them up accordingly. We should apply the gospel to our hearts as well. Rather than seeing them as this evil force that misrepresents the gospel and that should not be associated with, we should see it as this: they (just like us) fall short of Gods glory, but God came to die for all of us so that we can be saved from our sin.
I do like how you are able to see and perceive a problem, but i encourage you to be more involved! believe it or not Christ died for them just as much as He died for us. And since we are all part of the universal church (the body of Christ), lets be able to build each other up humbly and correctly! We should struggle to represent Christ's Love to EVERYONE around us with everything that we do :]
@MyTwoCentss@xanga - I'm in China and Gays and Lesbians are severely looked down on. Bisexuality is "ok", because it doesn't prevent the continuation of the family line, but strictly observing gays and lesbians are outcasts.
Physical contact between same-sex people is very common, actually far more common than in the States and people don't blink twice about Bi-sexual incounters, but no one is willing to talk about it.
In India, Homosexuality is treated very severely and they have no part in the government. They still have to maintain "closet like" attitudes.
So, speaking from a world-perspectives, the Homosexual community in America has it very nice as they are not forced to maintain sexual contact with members of the other sex, nor are the repressed by the government (in the sense that they are in India).
Blaming this on Christians is about as far from the truth as you can get.
@TravelingStranger@xanga - Thank you for this comment. It's good to hear from people with experience outside US borders that this is NOT exclusively the result of Christianity. I knew the was true, however I have no experience outside the US nor am I aware of the situation outside the US so I had no "proof" for how I felt and what I believed as far as that goes. Thank you.
Gays account for 2% of the population and laws are being legislated against Christians who speak out and they are trying to make it a hate crime for Christians to speak which violates the 1st Amendment.
The fact is that if we don't protect ourselves legislatively then evil will prevail and gays will enforce indoctrination in schools in order to make us gay so that the 1% of society can have more available sexual partners.
Jesus will legislate morality one day:
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And Homosexuality is a sin.
Yeah the main poster, the guy who renounced his US citizenship, the stateless pilot dude, is very wrong on some topics, and slightly right on others. Protestant and non-denominational so-called Christian "churches" really are perpetuating evil by misrepresenting the message of Jesus. George Bush is perfect example. By taking the Bible literally ( in its English translation !!) they abandon their reason, which is God's greatest gift, after all, the Bible is addressed to reasonable beings. So, Christian Fundamentalism is a great wrong, and no different than Islamic fundamentalism...both abandon reason in favor of literalism. That has happened to these Christian "sects" that the stateless pilot rails against because they have separated off from the One, True, Holy and Apostolic Church, the Catholic Church (all 26 rites of it that remain in accord with the Pope). So that's one area where this guys thoughts are all a-wack. Secondly, his rant about homosexuals is also skewered. Homosexuals have equal rights as anyone else in the USA. They can form legal bonds with each other, but these legal bonds should not be viewed as identical or entirely equivalent to marriage. NO ADOPTION FOR GAY COUPLES!!!! Marriage is a social institution long, long, before it was associated with Christianity, or even before there was Christianity. Let it be said, again, that Protestantism has perpetrated a great evil by admitting divorce. Who really marries with the proviso that if it doesn't work out, we'll just separate? The human heart has hope for love to be stronger than death, and last forever. that;s the human heart I am talking about. Catholicism merely insists that the human heart is right in its natural desire, because Jesus insisted on it too.
So, spinning in space, human society throughout time has seen the institution of marriage between a man and a woman as the brick from which civilization is constructed - a solid base to raise children in, and to provide them with primary education, and early personality formation. duh: THE FAMILY unit. communes are not a primary social unit. and neither are same sex relationships....in fact same sex relations are not even real sexual relations because the complimentary sexual organs - THE REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS - are not joined, and no complete human bond is formed. People nowadays are just afraid of making families...women afraid of being mothers and wives, men afraid ofbeing husbands and fathers. selfish. timid. sexless godless hellbound freaks. that is not the way.
I really agree with everything you say. I totally do.
However, just because we don't like American Christianity, doesn't mean we have to create posts like this. If a unbeliever, who was struggling with whether or not to believe in God saw this post, undoubtedly, that unbeliever would turn away, because after all if a Christian is bitter about the present circumstances, then surely the unbeliever would be as well. We have to be careful about what we say about the faith, because that affects how those who do not believe see the faith. This post COULD be viewed as saying that the faith is divisive within itself, and does not meet the spiritual needs of the believer. To the unbeliever's eyes, the first question they will ask is: "Well, why don't you leave?" They expect the faith to be shallow, apt to leave a church or the belief at the drop of a hat. I think Paul talks about the words that come out of our mouths, and I think he's the one that says that we should watch what we talk, and always consider how others will view our conversations, particularly those who are without belief. If I were an unbeliever, I would see how all these flaws are in our society, and blame Christians, because it's apparently ok, a Christian blames Christians.
The reason I mention this, is because I see a new generation, I see a new revival. I see more and more people becoming desperate for God. Not a God who meets their agenda, but the God who just loves them and lavishly pours out to them. And they, to him. There is an uprising, a passionate generation, a minority voice among those who have yet to be heard. There is a population that is going to take the place of the older folk and the experienced crowd. There is a population of Christian Liberals, moderates, Christian Gays, Christians who reject the support of a war because that is killing. Christians who are simply trying to love others and carry this out into the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God. There's a movement occuring. We don't see it because we're so distracted by the older, Fred Phelps perspective of Christianity. But, there is hope because it is growing. There are people around me that inspire me and encourage me because they're not those people that you talk about in your post. I think the focus on that, the focus on the hope we have not only as Christians, but the hope that we have for some day, America being a vastly different religious community.
With peace
1) In most US states, homosexuals do NOT have the right to form legal bonds with one another. Get your facts straight. And yes, they deserve fully equal rights as straight couples. Anything less is unfair and unjust discrimination. There is no evidence of any harm done when there are equal rights, as evidenced by the number of countries where it's legal.
2) There is not one shred of evidence that suggests that children of gay couples are any worse off than those of straight couples. Research shows they do quite well and grow up to be well-adjusted human beings. With your logic it should be illegal for atheists to adopt because they "aren't Christian." I fail to see how this I any different.
3) There is nothing wrong with not getting married or not having children. I don't have the time or desire to raise kids, hence my vasectomy back in August. There is no scriptural evidence that contraception is wrong or that not having children is wrong.
@MyTwoCentss@xanga - no prob! Happy to help! Not that anyone else is gonna listen, lol.
@StatelessPilot - Do you remember the phrase "We the people."? Where does it occur? It occurs in the Constitution. The phrase "We the people" is what our Founders based this country on.
"Just Because something is a sin doesn't mean it should be illegal. Give me a secular reason not to give homosexuals their equal rights. Christian rules do not apply to non-Christians, so let them do what they want! "
That isn't true:
Romans 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
The rulers in a democracy are supposed to listen to us (because we're the people) so therefore if you disobey them when we ask them to legislate against Homosexuality then you are disobeying God.
@Chuckt - Again, not everybody is a Christian (not even all politicians are Christian), so that doesn't apply to them either. They are NOT compelled or required to listen to you. Legislating against homosexuality or anything else that doesn't line up with Christianity is imposing on other people, period. How would you like it if you lived in a primarily Muslim nation and they legislated that all women must wear hijabs in public and that all men need to grow a beard (it's their modesty standard)? Something tells me you wouldn't like that at all.
Alas, in that comment you did point out one of democracy's fatal flaws. Luckily, most democratic countries also have higher courts to strike crap like this down. Further, what you're saying about homosexuality was also said about interracial marriage. The vast majority wanted legislation against it, and even invoked the Bible to show that interracial marriage is wrong. It had to be struck down by the Supreme Court, and it's a good thing it did.
Excellent post. You hit on all the issues I have with people back home. Bravo for standing up and saying this.
Even though I believe the Bible to be the inspired words of God (Jesus did too, btw), I'm never going to back down that what it says about homosexuality (or any sexuality outside of male-female marriage) being wrong in the eyes of the Lord. HOWEVER. We're in America...and if gay people want to get married, and the majority of people vote for it, well then...I guess let's let them. You're right, this isn't a "Christian" nation, and Jesus never taught us to have a theocracy, but rather to function peacefully in whatever government we have. So, it doesn't hurt me personally for other people to do what they want, so that's fine..but I'm still not going to say it's not sinful. Thank you.
@StatelessPilot - "Legislating against homosexuality or anything else that doesn't line up with Christianity is imposing on other people, period."
It is called government by the people, for the people and by the people. We're not imposing any more than anyone else is.
"How would you like it if you lived in a primarily Muslim nation and they legislated that all women must wear hijabs in public and that all men need to grow a beard (it's their modesty standard)?"
That is why we have to have a say in government. Imagine if you didn't have a vote but only convicts and criminals did? If honest people don't stay in power than anything goes. If we give up our checks and balances then we might as well not be free.
@Chuckt - As to your first point, thank you for showing why I left America and subsequently renounced my American citizenship. America's government is screwed up because many of the people who run it strive for theocracy. As I've always said, American Christians don't believe in freedom of religion. They believe in the freedom to be whatever kind of Christian you want.
As for the second point, you missed it entirely. My point is that you, a non-Muslim, shouldn't be required to wear a beard or a hijab, and you wouldn't like it if that was the law of the land, now would you? Didn't think so, and why? Because that's imposing on you. Legislating Christianity is no different. Can you not see that?
@StatelessPilot - "...government is screwed up because many of the people who run it strive for theocracy."-StatelessPilot
"Again, not everybody is a Christian (not even all politicians are Christian),..."-StatelessPilot
You have to decide whether we are or not Christian. We're a Republic and not a theocracy because a theocracy wasn't supposed to have a king (1 Samuel 8:7).
"My point is that you, a non-Muslim, shouldn't be required to wear a beard or a hijab, and you wouldn't like it if that was the law of the land, now would you?"
I did not miss your point. I agree with you. I wouldn't want to have to be Muslim but if you think the answer to that means give up having a position then you are wrong. Do you favor having cops? Would you like it things were the other way around and cops put you in jail? Shouldn't we free criminals because we wouldn't like what cops do to them? Is the answer always pacivity?
There has to be checks and balances in society or even straight people will be victimized to a 1-2 percent of people who won't respect our freedom because they want us to be guilty of hate crimes, they don't respect our religious freedom to employ whom we want, they want to endoctrinate us, and some of them already sexually harass us.
@Chuckt - Methinks you're paranoid.
Something should be illegal when it infringes upon the rights of others or negatively affects or harms another. How does gays having the same rights to a legal partnership as straight couples negatively affect or harm anyone else? It doesn't. There's your difference.
You're already prohibited from discriminating against potential employees based on religious grounds per the EEOC. Do you think the EEOC should be abolished? By your arguments, that leads me to think you believe that.
Straight people commit sexual harassment just as much as gay people, yet I don't see you going after them? Why not? In fact, you're far more likely to be a victim of sexual harassment from a straight person because there are more of them! You are NOT being victimized in any way. Hate crime law is good because it attaches stiffer penalties to someone who kills or causes harm to another when the crime is motivated solely by race, religion, orientation, etc.
There is no law against speaking out against sin and there never will be, nor are they advocating for that. You can speak out against sin all you want, but again, something being sin is simply not good enough grounds for it to be illegal. Lastly, nobody is indoctrinating anyone. It's not like they can make more people be gay, seeing as how sexual orientation is not chosen. All they want is equal treatment, which is not indoctrination. As I said, you're not being victimized in any way, and homosexuals make up closer to 10% of the population, not just 1-2%, for the record.
If you're not Christian, it's sort of problematic to address this issue in such a way, especially without comparison to Christianity in other countries that is preferable, if this post is supposedly about why American Christianity is a problem (I mean... didn't you say in another post you live in Mexico?? So is Christianity there "right"?).
*edit: okay, I guess you are Christian after reading your profile blurb belatedly, so sorry about that accusation. But still, I think it is problematic to critique and critique without offering any alternative other than "don't be this way."
"American Christianity is the reason why LGBTs still do not have equal
rights in America. American Christianity is the reason why helpful
programs such as Planned Parenthood face extinction due to defunding
(I'm 100% against the defunding of PP, though they do provide abortions
they also do a whole lot of good, and none of their public funding goes
to abortion anyway). It is the reason why school children aren't
getting proper education in the science classroom. The list goes on and
on."
I would like to point out that Christians are not the reasons for any of these things in the slightest- this is very reductive of several complex societal ideas.
-Many people do not like LGBT, or are uncomfortable with LGBT, and it has less to do with religion, it has everything to do with an entire culture that has believed this for the past few centuries. Obviously a lot of Christians are conservative, and conservative people are often more likely to oppose these things. But it is not Christianity that is persecuting us; it is people that use religion as a shield to not further examine their beliefs and how they might be hurting other people by holding onto them tighter than they hold onto Jesus.
To say that Christianity is the only reason we don't have equal rights is laughable- believe me, there are non-religious people who would and have objected heavily to the LGBT movement. The most "open minded" people will make really nasty jokes about people who don't conform to gender binary because of that logic of "we're all cool with gays and stuff, but if a guy wears a dress he is a freak and deserves to be made fun of!"
Christianity isn't the only reason Planned Parenthood funding is in jeopardy, because Christians aren't the only people who oppose abortion. The reason PP funding is in jeopardy is a fundamental misunderstanding of the benefit of public services and a desire to listen and be fired up by talking heads regardless of where the truth lies. Abortion, although it follows general lines of religious v. non-religious, is more complicated a viewpoint than that. My mom is catholic and pro-choice, and she is not the only christian pro-choicer by far. And there are plenty of non-christian pro-lifers out there.
I would agree on the classroom thing because that really does relate a lot to religion and Christianity more than anything else and serves as a detriment to an entire nation of people who aren't all Christian.