Monday, 23 May 2011
-
It's the End of the World as We Know It
…and I feel fine.So, by the time you read this Jen (llamalima) has been raptured, depending on how long it takes me to write this, and how long it takes you to read this, many of the Hong Kong based Xanga users may have been raptured as well. It seems Jesus follows timezones, though, I really thought those were a man made invention.
Okay, so, I don't really believe Jen has been raptured, though he isn't replying on Twitter of Facebook right now… nor do I believe the people in Hong Kong are gone already. I think Harold Camping is a false prophet, and I feel sorry for those who are following him. From what I heard today from a man, Pastor James White, who spent years arguing with the man he told his followers that the Holy Spirit has left the Christian Church, and that because of this they too should leave the Church. Strangely enough, this exactly coincided with the day he was removed from his pastorate for preaching his end times numerology heresy. I'm thinking "the Holy Spirit has left the Church" really says something more about his bitterness than it does about the Holy Spirit or the Church.
A slight tangent if I may, if someone comes along and tells you that the Holy Spirit has left the Church, and you should too, they are wrong and likely a heretic. Jesus chose His Church, and I don't see Him abandoning her. If someone tells you He has or will, they haven't read the bible and should be dismissed.
Anyway, one thing that I've not seen done much today, and I think should be done with this day, is to clarify some things. First off, most Christians do not believe in a "rapture." Popular belief in the rapture didn't start until sometime in the mid 1800s to early 1900s. Until then, if anyone held to this view it was a very small minority. Since then many in America believe it, but my understanding is that the belief isn't quite as popular elsewhere. A quick and easy rule of thumb is that if the belief started in modern times, or in America, and even more so if both, it is wrong. (See also: Mormons/LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, etc.)
That all being said, I do think this presents a good reminder that our individual lives on earth don't last forever, and we don't know when the end will come. (Other than we can be fairly certain it isn't May 21st, 2011.) Jesus said that He is coming like a thief in the night, and that no one would know when He comes. When He comes He will come to judge and condemn sin. His wrath will be poured out and those who don't have their sin paid for in His blood will be cast into hell, while those who have their faith in Him will be with Him forever. So, while we don't know when He is coming, we do know that He is. Take the opportunity to place your trust in Him and be saved.
For a little levity:
How do you feel about the people who believed the rapture would come this weekend? Looking back on the whole thing, what's the lesson we can take from it? How do we move forward and live as though the end is always near?
Related Posts
Post a Comment
- Back to revelife's Revelife Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in revelife's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)
About the Author
-
- From: MagisterTom@xanga
- Name: Tom
- Location: Carbondale, Illinois, United States
- About Me: I am a Christian first and foremost. This means that I try to put God first in everything I do. Notice I said try, I'm far from perfect. For more about me, read my blog posts, and look at my interests.
-
True
Stats: This Week All Time Posts: 0 34 Views: 0 26740 Comments: 0 964 View all posts by MagisterTom@xanga
Comments (28)
I feel sorry for his followers. But, I hope now they will realize he was a false prophet, will see the mistakes and sin that lead them to follow him, and will repent and rejoin the Church. And, if they aren't, that they will trust in Christ and be saved.
I disagree with a few things in your post. I don't believe the Seventh Day Adventists are wrong and they shouldn't be placed in the same camp as the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. They believe the Sabbath is Saturday, and it is. I believe a rapture will happen. God spoke about when the dead in Christ will rise and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the air to meet with Him and to be with Him forever more. That is the passage of the events which has been given the name "Rapture". You are mistaken in saying the Rapture is when Jesus will return. Jesus doesn't return until after the tribulation. The Rapture will happen either before or in the middle of the tribulation, depending on who you believe. Something else - Jesus' blood and death was for everyone. It's a free gift and those who have received him will be saved. Your wording makes it sound like Jesus didn't die for everyone. It's true that during the tribulation God will pour out His wrath but at the end of it Jesus will return to save Israel and then to establish His kingdom.
...something else: God will never abandon His church. Those who have been washed in the blood of Jesus Christ will not be forsaken.
Just out of curiosity, did Camping really prophesy anything? Or did he just interpret scripture to predict a date. I'm just wondering if this calling him a false prophet is really appropriate.
@designandart@xanga - I think I said that the Holy Spirit will never leave the Church, in saying that I hope I covered that God will not forsake the Church.
"A slight tangent if I may, if someone comes along and tells you that the Holy Spirit has left the Church, and you should too, they are wrong and likely a heretic. Jesus chose His Church, and I don't see Him abandoning her. If someone tells you He has or will, they haven't read the bible and should be dismissed."- from the post.
Look into the history of the Seventh Day Adventists, and their current beliefs. They have very confused beliefs. They were started by a false prophet, who followed another false prophet, and they have the covenants confused. I heard the founder of http://formeradventist.com/ speaking about this on Wretched Radio on Friday. I would highly suggest listening to that episode, and checking out that site. They are far from orthodox Christian belief. (I think it may require a subscription to listen to previous episodes, if it does let me know and I'll find a way to get you the episode.)
Yes, Jesus died for everyone, but His blood only pays for and cleanses the sin of those who are in Christ.
As for "the Rapture," I'm aware of the different teachings on the subject, and if I worded something poorly, I am sorry. I started out in a church that believed and taught rapture teaching, and some of the pastors I podcast regularly believe in it and teach it. Though, as I said above, the idea of the rapture is an American thing from the 1700s. (I said 1800s in the post, as it didn't immediatley take-off as a popular belief.) If the Church didn't believe it or teach it for 1700 years, doesn't that make the idea a bit suspect? That, and it takes some interesting interpretations of Scripture to come up with a rapture belief.
@kk_grayfox@xanga - Well, he predicted it by interpreting the bible as a word problem to be made into a mathematical formula. Maybe that doesn't qualify as prophet because he didn't claim to get the message from the mouth of God, but is there much difference? He is clearly false and heretical.
@designandart@xanga - The audio that I mentioned from Wretched Radio where the former adventist spoke can be found here: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/WR2011-0520-Hr1.mp3
@MagisterTom@xanga - I'm sorry, I didn't mean to post that you have a wrong belief about God leaving his church. I think the rapture wasn't taught earlier than it has is because the early church just didn't have a name for it. Once the name "Rapture" came into our dialogue then it could be talked about.
@designandart@xanga - Even if it was just lacking a name to call it by, we would see it in the writings of the early church if they believed it. But, we don't.
@MagisterTom@xanga - well, some of the early church believed that the cross was a hook to bait Satan (the original ransom theory). it was only Anselm that popularized substitutionary theology. lesson: the early church isn't the standard
@MagisterTom@xanga - I think the church of old was concerned about other things. With the notion that we are living in the end time, which probably started fairly recently, then all the talk about the rapture became important.
@designandart@xanga - @nyclegodesi24@xanga - I didn't say the early church always had everything right, or that they are the standard. But, I would think that if it were a valid interpretation that someone would have come up with it prior to 1700 years in. And, Augustine seemed to believe in substitutionary atonement. Oh, and the Thessalonians seemed to believe they were living in the end times.
@MagisterTom@xanga - Seventh Day Adventists have some beliefs I think are questionable, but they believe in the core truths of Christianity--Jesus as God's Son and our Savior, the Trinity, etc. That puts them in a very different camp from Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
My father is an Assembly of God minister, but he also plays the piano for an SDA church on Saturday, and he was approved to do so by our Assemblies of God district because the SDA holds to basic core Christian truths--the salvation issues. There are a lot of other things I would question, but their fundamentals are there. That's why they're not classified as a cult in things like The Chaos of the Cults (very extensive list of cults worldwide)
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Without needing to offer my own interpretation, I believe Scripture when it says this is going to happen. If I disagree with someone else on when or how, no biggie. I'm interested in doing the Lord's work until the end, whenever and however it happens.
@kk_grayfox@xanga - He made a prediction, which he claimed to be backed up by the Bible using Biblical calculations, but it was a apocalyptic prediction nonetheless. When someone predicts the apocalypse, they are setting themselves up as a prophet. And NO, he didn't prophesy anything.... hence why he is a false prophet.
@TravelingStranger@xanga - I guess calling him a false prophet seems less appropriate to me because it was based on a biblical interpretation. It's like when Christians have said that the Bible predicted the formation of the state of Israel in 1948 or the myriad times that they thought scripture pointed to Jesus' return (e.g. the Great Disappointment of the 1800's).
I'm not aware of any prophets that interpreted scripture to make their predictions (because that would just make the scripture prophetic, not the individual), so to call him a false prophet doesn't seem to make much sense. I just say he's a guy who was wrong, seemed to delude himself into a grand interpretation based on two unrelated verses, and unfortunately convinced a lot of people to give up their jobs, life savings, etc.
A false prophet seems to imply he was an intentional deceiver or someone who rallied people to himself. I think the guy meant well as did the followers. You can be wrong and still have good intentions.
@Pickwick12@xanga - Listen to this, then tell me if they are a cult or not. http://lifeassuranceministries.org/WR2011-0520-Hr1.mp3
@MagisterTom@xanga - I googled that ministry. Part of the issue might be that the gentleman who founded Life Assurance Ministries left the SDA church in the 80's. A lot has changed
since then. I'm not claiming that I think all SDA claims are biblical, but I do believe SDA members can be saved and that many of them are. I don't know how all SDA churches operate, but I do know that the ones in my area preach the Gospel as it is found in Scripture (the regular Scripture that would be used in any Evangelical church is what they use), which is what I care about. My dad has sat in on many, many sermons at a local SDA church, and while he didn't agree with all of the side beliefs, they preached Christ accurately.
This is the position of the Christian Research Institute, and I agree with it (sorry for the weird formatting):
“It now appeared that the structure of SDA theology was essentially
orthodox. Adventism affirmed the inspiration of Scripture, the Christian
doctrine of the Trinity, and Christ's deity, virgin birth, vicarious
atonement, bodily resurrection, and second advent. Martin, who had
written extensively on the subject of American-based cults, immediately
recognized that this was not the doctrinal statement of a typical cult.
He began to believe that SDA, at least as these men represented it, had
been very misunderstood by evangelical Christianity.”[10][11]
“Martin’s conviction remains my own—that one cannot be a true
Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, or Christian Scientist and be a practising
Christian in the biblical sense of the word. Those sects proclaim a
different God, a different Christ, and a different gospel (2 Cor. 11:4;
Gal. 1:6-9). But it is possible to be a Seventh-day Adventist and a true
follower of Jesus Christ despite certain distinctive Adventist
doctrines that most evangelical Protestants respectfully consider to be
unbiblical.”[1
It's totally your prerogative to continue to consider the SDA a cult, but I'm not going to ever agree with you. Unusual, yes. Cult like Mormon on Jehovah Witness? No way.
@Pickwick12@xanga - You sure listen to an hours worth of audio quickly. Give it a listen and see what it has to say, please.
@MagisterTom@xanga - @designandart@xanga - Touching on a few of the comments so far, Paul obviously believed in a "rapture" since he described it in detail, hence the early church believed in a rapture also. However, for Paul and the early church, the resurrection / "rapture" was to happen concurrently with the return of Christ. We know that the early church anticipated an imminent return of Christ - Paul certainly seemed to - and so they also anticipated an imminent rapture at the same time.
However, it's a modern idea that there will be a separate "rapture"... then a Tribulation... then a Second Coming. This "Left Behind" scenario was unknown in the early church and you won't find any mention of it by Jesus or Paul. Mostly it's based on a particular literal interpretation of Revelation 20 - a brief, obscure passage in a highly symbolic letter.
So yes Paul / the early congregations did anticipate that believers (alive and dead) would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His return, but not the "Left Behind" scenario.
@Pickwick12@xanga - @A_Piano_Tuner@xanga - http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm is about that verse. After that, I won't say more about the Rapture.
@kk_grayfox@xanga - Ok. I'm not sure the Bible says a false prophet/teacher can't "twist the scriptures to their own demise", nor am I aware where it says that they can't have innocent intentions and actually believe what they're saying.
Either way, call him what you like; he's wrong, he's teaching destructive teachings (some actually committed suicide because of his teachings, while others ruined their financial life, and still many more are mocking Christianity), and he knows that he is wrong because he's done this before. His intentions are probably not innocent.
@MagisterTom@xanga - Well let me say this: N.T. Wright doesn't always do it for me. I think he's making major assumptions when stating that Paul is drawing on various other imagery... what does he base this on? When Jesus bodily ascended to the clouds his disciples were immediately told that he would return in just the same way.
Wright is right to reject the "Left Behind" scenario. He is also correct when he says that "Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world" This is consistent with the expectation of the early church - that believers will be raptured to meet Jesus in the air at the Second Coming and then escort Him to the earth (which has just been remade). If Wright believes this, then he believes in a literal rapture.
Interestingly, Jesus described the rapture similar to Paul when He says that upon His return the angels will "gather" God's elect from the four corners. Likewise Paul says believers will be "caught up" and "gathered" to meet the Lord at His coming. Why is this rapture necessary? Because at that very moment God's wrath is being poured out on the current earth, and all of creation is being reborn, and believers are descending with the Lord onto the New Earth, our eternal home.
@A_Piano_Tuner@xanga - If there is no "left behind" rapture prior to the wrath of God described in Revelation, then all the living Christian believers would have to suffer along with the unbelievers. We are saved from God's judgment and punishment for sin. From what I understand, the Devil will have his way on Earth during the tribulation due to the absence of the restraining effect of Christians. There certainly will be people accepting Jesus during the tribulation, though. I don't believe God will allow his church - Christian believers, to have to go through the seven seals and seven bowls of judgment. God that Jesus will return with tens of thousands of His saints. So the rapture resurrection of the dead, which is the first rapture event, must take place before Jesus' return. The second half is when the believers who are living are caught up to be with Jesus in the air and to be with Him forever. I know the bible was written for those of the day, but it was also written for us now.
Here's my take on this whole thing, I have had some experience with it in the early 90's. http://happily-married-guy.xanga.com/748476048/whats-behind-harold-campings-ideas/
I'm curious if the "rapture" is new, yes maybe the term itself is new but I would be curious what the early church thought of this verse:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever