I try to be respectful to people who disagree with my ideology, but sometimes a religious person will say or do something that I just can't be cordial when addressing. As should be apparent (but almost never is), this is not targeting ALL Christians. There are some Christians I have tremendous respect for --
jmallory and
TheGreatBout being two vocal ones who come to mind, both of whom represent what I consider to be the best Christianity has to offer (that's meant to be a compliment, but with me being the source it may be construed as an insult). But any time a Christian uses these argument tactics without thinking first, I don't know how to respond with anything but the verbal equivalent of a kick to the shins.
One of the most ridiculous arguments ever used against me, and still one of the most common ones I hear. It should be obvious that saying "oh my god" does not constitute a legitimate swear, and is more a social construct that I grew up in. If you say "holy cow" to something, that doesn't make you Hindu, does it?
"Christians are the most persecuted group in America."
Really? So you've had problems with Jews setting the Star of David on fire in your lawn, or Muslims telling you that you're a terrorist because of your religion, or atheists keeping you from holding government office? Stop acting like in modern America Christians are still being thrown to the lions like the iconic image of ancient Rome. It's almost impossible to get a political position if you are anything but Christian. We have a grand total of one Muslim congressperson (Keith Ellison, D-MN) and one openly secular congressperson (Pete Stark, D-CA). That means that Christians outnumber ALL other religious groups 433 to 2 in congress. Not exactly like Christians aren't getting enough representation in government.
"Atheists just hate god."
No more than I hate Bigfoot, Nessie, unicorns, or non-corrupt politicians, in that I don't believe any of these things exist. Yes, I often hate the followers of god, or the ideas espoused by god... but the same can be said about the Twilight books and Twilight fans, it doesn't mean I think Stephanie Meyer was a prophet.
"If you'd just read the Bible, you'd understand!"
Don't assume that I haven't read the Bible just because I don't believe in it. In fact, I think that proper Biblical studies, meaning in a correct historical context, is a very potent force for atheism. I've read the Bible multiple times, as a devout believer, as a person questioning his faith, and as a non-believer. Each time I read the Bible I find more and more in there that does not jive with the world I see around me.
"Atheists just hate Christians, but they always stand up for Muslims!"Speaking from experience, I think of Islam on about the same page that I think of Christianity: it's believers are misguided, using shady logic, but most of them are decent, well-meaning people. The reason people often perceive me as being pro-Islam is because nearly all the anti-Islam sentiment I stumble across comes from a fundamentalist Christian perspective. And in a fight between a moderate Muslim and an extremist Christian, I'll side with the Muslim.
There we go, that should offend both religions equally.
"I never see you attacking [insert not not your religion here], but you're always attacking Christianity!"True. And there are a few reasons for this.
1) My "attacks" on Christians/Christianity draw more readers, more comments, and more recs, which in turn means more people read it. This alone could bias your sampling.
2) I know more about Christianity, so I feel more comfortable writing about it.
3) I was raised Christian, and live in a predominantly Christian area, so Christianity is much more pertinent to me than other religions.
4) The problems I encounter with religion on a personal basis is almost entirely Christian. I've never gotten a death threat from a Jew, I've never been physically assaulted by a Muslim, I've never had a Jain try to legislate their religion over me. Christians have done all of these things to me.
"You have no right to attack my faith!"I have every right to attack your faith, and you have every right to tell me why I'm wrong, just like you have every right to ignore my attack. I'm sick of the mentality that religion is a topic we can't discuss and question. I can throw out dozens of reasons why I disagree with Republicans, but for some reason when I question how rational it is to believe in the literal reading of a book thousands of years old I'm crossing the line? If you're using your religion to affect my life or the life of anyone I care about, I have every right in the world to question your logic and/or motivations.
If you're a Christian, why do you think we get into these arguments? Do you think there's a different way we could go about discussing our faith that doesn't turn off people to the idea of it? If you're not a Christian, is there any way that a Christian could talk to you about his or her faith that you would be open to?
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Comments (123)
This all seems pretty fair to me. :)
You are incredible.
@jmallory@xanga - You're just saying that because I flattered you in the intro.
@beautifullymindedx@xanga - I really am, but thanks for reminding me!
@GodlessLiberal@xanga - I'm being honest... but yeah... thanks for that too.
@GodlessLiberal@xanga - You're welcome <3
i am fortunate that i've lived most of my life in a place like Manhattan. people accept each other's faiths and beliefs respectfully. most hang together and most don't try to prove their version of 2+2=5. and the 5 was not a typo.
I gave a thumb contribution no matter how you were so mean to me @_@
I'd be upset by these arguments too...and I'm a Christian.
I think speaking honestly about our beliefs and accepting that we can't "change" everyone (on both sides) would help in the "argument". I think if more Christians were loving in their approach...it would help.
I enjoyed this just as much the second time around - this may be my first time ever recking a revelife post - not sure.
I'm amenable to discussion religion and the truths of the universe with Christians. In fact, I've spoken to many Christians about this before, friends or strangers who have approached me. Even if they were to use those arguments on me, I think I'd have to patience to respond to each of them - it's no use getting frustrated; after all, it's important for them to understand why I think the way I do as much as it is for me to understand why they think the way they do.
I'm embarrassed for any Christian using those arguments...
i heart you.
the closest i've come to being converted was my friend, an Episcopalian, explaining that her church doesn't hate gay people. then again, i think most Christians would call her a fake because personally, she doesn't believe you have to be Christian in order to get into Heaven.
the other argument i dislike is the idea that i've rejected God. from my perspective, the jury is still out. just because you are unsure if something is true, that doesn't mean you're rejecting it if it is.
@TheSutraDude@xanga - Guess you don't ride the trains much.
hmmm ya know... for being an atheist you're sure obsessed with proving religion wrong. And I my friend am not a Christian. If you don't believe in it then why do you care so much? You said you were raised Christian. Forced into Christianity. So now your payback is to convert other religious goers to atheism? Why? If they're happy, let them be. If they're not then let them figure it out on their own.
@striemmy@xanga - i have actually.
@TheSutraDude@xanga - It's been my experience on the trains, and major intersections of foot traffic that there are often people trying to force their beliefs down the throats of others, usually with yelling.
i'm assuming you're talking about the nutcases screaming jesus rhetoric?
"If you're not a Christian, is there any way that a Christian could talk to you about his or her faith that you would be open to?"
As a Muslim I often find some Christian Xanga-like/-related blogs interesting. I believe we can't quite build bridges over differences, so I try to find out what we have in common, whether it's something admirable from doctrine, practice, or facepalm hypocrisy/idiocy stuff readily available in typical X community. However, it seems just being inquisitive, opinionated, or Muslim each individually isn't very conducive to dialogue, let alone some combination of them. It would be nice if they understood I'm just asking to either learn more, to compare/contrast (mutual learning?), or just to appreciate. I'm *not* trying to proselytize. *Perhaps* I'm offering my own viewpoint (which may not necessarily be Islam's, obviously, I'm just some dude on the internet).
There are some people that seem to take offense if I so much as ask questions, their very tone is visibly different. Sure they are not being offensive, but it's as if they've been offended. I would appreciate not being second guessed and not being dealt with so emotionally, however eloquently one might be covering that up. Ftr that turns out to be the same kind of reminder I wind up giving to Muslims on Xanga, both between myself and them as well as between them and other parties (which so far the emo seems to trigger with atheists, haven't really seen it happen w/ Christians, save LoBourne the anomaly and distinct Islamophobes).
Then again I'm technically not really on Xanga anymore. But in the least maybe it can help others down the line. I've managed to be level-headed here even while being essentially called out as a terrorist. If I can manage that, and on top of that give that very other Xangan the benefit of the doubt, surely Christian Xangans can afford to amiably handle *basic questions* or *opinions*. And I'm serious about this. Being called a terrorist can *ruin a life*, I'm not trying to brag about having tried to handle that reasonably (a friend was also targeted and he dedicated an entry as a response, but I kept it private, I didn't want a flood of support/knockdown comments). But seeing how in this post a cry regarding persecution is common enough to warrant mention, I've been called here in this network a terrorist and I did not cry about it a single time. *Surely* Christians could do better for things that are so very much less. I mean if you really have to, just pretend I'm a fellow Christian (and of your denomination if you really have to) with reeeeally wild beliefs, if that's what it takes to remove a stumbling block to friendly communication.
@FallingSafely@xanga - I'm very curious if he will answer this. I have felt the same way about his posts.
As an atheist I can tell you I've had many very pleasant conversations with Christians regarding their beliefs and mine, however, I'm always guarded and quick to defend myself when confronted with arguments such as these... also I just watched the documentary "Jesus Camp" (it even came with a red plastic aborted fetus replica!) and am terrified that I'll run into the little kid with the rat tail praying and speaking in tongues to a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush, knowing full well he was raised by a group of Extremist Christian Hatemongers not representational, at all, of the mostly peaceful and pleasant whole with whom I speak on a regular basis.
And I apologize for sometimes being quick to attack just because I'm feeling "dickish." It happens.
An excellent post.
It's not our job to change others...
Speak wisely, respectfully and listen to others. People want to be heard.
Great post!
I think it's important for people to remember that Christians are people, too. Just like some people use the Internet as a shield or weapon to say whatever hurtful, ill-reasoned, or angry things they want to say to people, some others prefer to use "Christianity". There are many different types of people in any social and religious group you may come across. The bigger the group, the more variety of people in a lot of cases.
I think that the best way to talk to people is in love. It's important that anyone examines themselves to make sure what they are saying is coming from love and not a place of condemnation, judgement, or anger. Even if your tone becomes stern, if people can recognize the love in it, it will come across better. You also have to receive in love. I don't think it's fair to pre-judge anyone's intent based on their religion or any of their other characteristics. I think we should approach each conversation with the thought that the person we are speaking to means us no harm and have pure intentions. If they don't...well, when the conversation is over you can at least say that you gave them a fair chance. At least everything was on the up and up on your part. I would like to be able to say that all Christians (well, everyone everywhere actually) follow the 2nd greatest commandment to LOVE, but the truth is some are just as hateful as others in the world can be. I just pray that more and more of us will get it.
Lovely ♥
I have to say, I have never used any of those arguments. I have only one argument:
"I believe in God because ________. The story is pretty interesting, actually, if you want to hear it."
Then trail off questioningly, and if they ask, I answer. If they don't, we move on.