Saturday, 26 March 2011
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On Pregnancy: Would You Ever Say This?
A number of ladies I know are pregnant. I often think about the joy of bringing a new child into the world, and although I don't judge girls or women who decide for whatever reason to have an abortion, I do condemn those who downplay the seriousness of aborting a child, and those "medical professionals" who profit from performing abortions. Many condemn those radicals who are pro-life, not pro-choice. Never mind what the expected child's father wants, either. Who are we to tell a woman what to do with her body?
One argument we often hear is that it is not really a baby, it is "just a mass of tissue," kind of like cancer is a mass of tissue. So you are not killing a child, you are just dealing with an unwelcome medical condition. After all, being pregnant and raising your baby will change your life forever. If you offer that child up for adoption, you further have to wonder what is happening to that child -- if your baby is okay and living a good life. He or she may even show up later on and intrude upon the life you have led since giving birth.
When the pregnancy is one that is wanted and the child is wanted, though, there is no doubt that it is a baby in there. When a woman miscarries, a funeral is sometimes even held for the little one. If a person causes a woman to miscarry, they are often charged with causing the death of the unborn child.
So, try to imagine saying to a woman who is pregnant, "You appear to have a mass of tissue in your abdomen. Are you going to have it scraped from inside you so that you can return to a normal life?"
I understand it's a rough world, and some live in homes that are less than perfect, even downright bad. But I would rather grow up in a rough home than never have the chance to live at all.
I was born to a woman in prison for writing bad checks. I was adopted by good people who had already adopted my half-brother and later my adoptive sister. They also provided foster care to about a dozen boys over the years and treated all children as their own.
Would you ever say this to a pregnant woman? Why not? Would you rather have lived in a rough environment than never having lived at all?
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- From: lonelywanderer2@xanga
- Name: lonelywanderer2
- About Me: A seeker of truth who studies all religions. I love to share my thoughts & beliefs. I respect the truly-held beliefs of all. I will not be the one who says your beliefs are wrong or your god or gods don't exist. I won't stand for others disrespecting them on my site or in my presence either. A thinking man who loves to travel and photograph beauty when I find it. I love all things wild and free. The wolf has symbolized that for me since I can remember. My family swears I am half wolf. I travel where I wish, often alone. If attacked or startled, I snarl and attack, literally. And if you think you hear me growling quietly when we pass each other, you probably do. I do that.
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Comments (91)
@MagisterTom@xanga -
"So, the financial support would then burden the mother, or more likely, the government?"
you're making the assumption that the woman is incapable of supporting a child on her own. why? i know a handful of single mothers who use their child support payments to go shoe shopping. they don't need them to survive. as a single woman who has had her own pregnancy scares in the past, i have no problem with a man wanting to be completely uninvolved, financially or otherwise. if he wants nothing to do with the kid, i don't see the victory in getting him to fork over cash every month.
"I don't see that as a good thing, and I don't think letting him escape financial responsibility is good either."
in the grand scheme of things, i think financial responsibility matters very little. i'd sooner support men being required by law to be fathers in every sense, not just with their wallets.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Rather than be stupid and "respect the father's right" to force a woman into abortion (being that I don't agree with abortion at all) I respect the father's right to stay out of the woman's and child's lives if he doesn't want to be a father. Simple as that. Same for the woman - if she doesn't value the life of the child she created, then she can also abandon that child; either with the willing biological father or with a family that DOES value her child's life. Nobody is forcing anybody into parenthood. I just can't understand a mindset that is so selfish that they would rather end a life than possibly get attached to their unborn child and then give them up so that they can have a life. How is ending a life easier than giving one?
@Thoughts_of_Motherhood@xanga -
"I just can't understand a mindset that is so
selfish that they would rather end a life than possibly get attached to
their unborn child and then give them up so that they can have a life. "
well, likewise, i can't understand a mindset that is so backwards that they value a fetus over an already breathing, thinking, working, walking, living human being and would happily turn her into nothing more than a human incubator, while at the same time seeming to care very little for what happens to that fetus AFTER it is born. looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.
"How is ending a life easier than giving one?'
whoever said abortion was easy?
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Wow, this screams HYPOCRITE!
In your latest reply to me you just said, "no, but i've seen pro-lifers care more about
unborn babies than children already in existence, let alone the woman
they'd love to force into parenthood."
Yet you just replied to MagisterTom saying, "in the grand scheme of things, i think
financial responsibility matters very little. i'd sooner support men
being required by law to be fathers in every sense, not just with their
wallets."
So it is okay to force men into parenthood but not women? What makes women better than men?
I think I'm done here replying to you. Apparently you say whatever you want to whomever you want and contradict yourself. I cannot take you seriously when you do that. I'm not into discussing things with those who are just here to stir things up or play devil's advocate. I'm sure you'll reply to this and you'll therefore "get the last word" and find it a victory of some sort in this debate. However to me, it's just more jabber.
@Thoughts_of_Motherhood@xanga -
"So it is okay to force men into parenthood but not women? What makes women better than men?"
wow, someone needs to go back to high school and retake critical thinking classes. i said i'd sooner support men being forced into responsibility that is comprehensive, not just financial. nowhere did i say i thought EITHER enforcement was a great idea. are you really that unintelligent? or is this just an off night for you?
"I think I'm done here replying to you. "
praise the Lord.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Oooh, you just won't shut up. I'm going to break my promise to myself and reply this last time.
" i said i'd sooner support men being forced into responsibility that is comprehensive, not just financial."
Yeah, what is this supposed to mean if it isn't forcing a man into parenthood? So please explain your "intelligent" comment. How is this NOT what I understand it to be - forcing the man into parenthood.
"nowhere did i say i thought EITHER enforcement was a great idea."
Well then why suggest it?
You imply that I'm unintelligent - listen to yourself! Are YOU having an off day or are you really that imbecilic?
@Thoughts_of_Motherhood@xanga -
"Well then why suggest it?"
where did i even suggest it? i'm making the argument that financial responsibility pales in comparison to actually BEING a true father to a child. i abhor both instances of enforcement, and that's my point: if you're willing to enforce financial responsibility, why not go all the way?
actually, i could ask you the same question. if you're fine with forcing a woman to be pregnant for what you see as a just a few months, why are you suddenly happy to see the woman exit the picture after birth? do you think it's somehow less of a burden to be pregnant?
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I never said I was fine with it or happy. I said it is the lesser of the two evils when you compare a woman washing her hands of parental responsibilities versus abortion.
As far as your question about being less of a burden to be pregnant I'm going to assume that you mean compared to parenting. That's not a hard question to answer. If we're still talking about women not aborting their babies to give them the gift of life and then (because they never wanted a child) giving them to someone else to raise - then yes. When you compare pregnancy on its own compared to parenting on its own - yes it is easier to be pregnant. Although the word "burden" is not something I would put together with either pregnancy or parenthood. Those who would call pregnancy a burden because they've gone through serious health issues (either their own or baby's) I think I would cringe at their word usage but not at their reasoning. Those who would call parenting a burden I just can't really talk to those people because parenting is something so precious & dear to my heart that I think I might say something rude to them. Parenting is difficult sometimes and sometimes stressful but never a burden.
Now hopefully we can agree to disagree and move on.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Sadly, the law can't make a boy do the right thing. They can however make him at least financially responsible.
And, my statement of the woman needing the financial support, is because I would imagine that most do need it, even if some don't.
@kk_grayfox@xanga - You say that Christians shouldn't enforce their beliefs on others, but, you vote? How does that work? Do you not vote for candidates that would support your beliefs? Isn't, at least in some small way, your voting an attempt to legislate your beliefs?
@MagisterTom@xanga -
i believe that responsibilities should
always be entered into willingly, and that there should always be a way
through which they can be 100% relinquished. my father paid child
support, although never as much as he was supposed to, but he was also
there as a true father in my life. that matters far more than being
able to write a check. if we're going to argue that enforcing some type
of responsibility is better for the child in some way, then i think we
should be enforcing that more than finances... because to me, there's no
real difference.
I'd rather have a rough environment than no chance. Because many people have risen from such situations and thrived later on in life. Many of them go on to influence others and help them to make their lives better (Oprah Winfrey, for example).
A child should not be aborted on the off-chance that an adoptive home would be less-than-ideal. It may very well be a perfectly healthy and caring home they're going to, one they will do well in.
It does bother me when people choose to abort because they just know they won't be able to give up the baby to another family once they look at it. How selfish can you get? That has nothing to do with caring about the infant's welfare. It's all about avoiding consequences for their own actions.
I am pro-life, and I think a good step in the right direction (if unable to outlaw abortion altogether) would be to require both parents to give consent if an abortion is desired. The baby is literally half the woman's, half the man's. Just because it's in her body doesn't mean the entire thing belongs to her, even if it's "just a fetus." A man may be perfectly willing to take the child and raise it on his own, and pay for medical expenses, etc. Men can't bear their own kids- the fact that a woman gets sole choice over something so life-changing for both people is appalling. Not as appalling as abortion itself, mind you- but disturbing nonetheless. Nine months is nothing compared to a lifetime.
I was pregnant and miscarried. There was never a single doubt in my mind that I wanted to follow my pregnancy to term, give birth, and raise MY child. However, I still referred to the fetus as a fetus, before, during, and now after my miscarriage. Take that as you may.
@MagisterTom@xanga - "You say that Christians shouldn't enforce
their beliefs on others, but, you vote? How does that work? Do you not
vote for candidates that would support your beliefs? Isn't, at least in
some small way, your voting an attempt to legislate your beliefs?"
Everything people vote on is derived from
their beliefs, of course. When I vote for an issue, it's because I
believe in it. Otherwise I avoid voting on it.
Let me clarify: when an issue is something specifically derived from a Christian belief that cannot be supported via objective, secular means, I will not vote for that issue. For example, Christians often insist that life begins at conception which is their main motivation for pro-life legislation. I see no scientific reason (nor biblical reason for that matter) to support this belief, so I find their support for pro-life to be religiously motivated.
I have not looked at the figures, but at least due to media coverage and my general impression of interacting with others, pro-life legislation is generally supported by Christians. Just because Christians support something doesn't mean I'd be against it (I am a Christian after all). I assume Christians would vote for a George Washington over a Hitler any day. But it's the specifically Christian-motivated (or Islam-motivated, or Atheist-motivated) things that I take issue with.
The difference is when Christians insist life begins at conception and it follows that to abort a baby should be equivalent to murder, they're basing this on what they interpret scripture to mean. How would you feel if legislation was passed by a muslim majority that says all women need to cover their faces? Why do they need to cover their faces? Well, because the Hadith says it's the moral thing to do. You don't follow the teachings of the Hadith? Well, that's too bad. Guess you'll have to live with it. The punishment for failing to comply is that any man can beat the woman if they see her without her burka covering her face. Seeing as how Christians want to make abortion, at any point in the pregnancy, equivalent to murder, I don't see how my example is much different from this one.
I believe that religious beliefs that cannot be attested to in some sort of secular form (e.g. biology, psychology, historical or sociological research) should not influence our government. Christians of course are anti-homocide, anti-rape and anti-robbery, but thankfully there are secular reasons to support these laws. The moment it becomes a Christian-only (or Christian and Buddhist-only, or Christian, Buddhist and Jewish-only, etc.) belief based on some sort of scripture or tradition, then it has no place in our legislation.
This is one reason why I'm heavily against Christians voting to abolish same-sex marriages as well. Notice, however, that Christians sometimes try to find secular reasons (e.g. "homosexuals are mentally unstable", "homosexuals molest children") to support their causes, but when it's a completely biblical interpretation-based belief, these secular arguments are usually profoundly flawed.
However, my main point in my initial comment (even if I didn't flesh it out) is that Christians shouldn't be legislating their beliefs for them to spread. Did Christ think we needed to change the world one vote at a time? Christ taught us to preach His raising from the dead and the new life and relationship with God that springs from that reality. It's through God's power to transform lives that people change the way they think, not how we vote. I'm not against responsible voting, I just think that many churches are trying to vote Christ into power, when He's already IN power and waiting for us to bring the American people and encounter with His love.
It is funny how people get all riled up about something so simple. Murder is wrong. End of debate.
A fetus is a mass of tissue-until a certain stage, obviously i wouldn't ask an expectant mother if she was going to have the mass of tissue scraped from inside of her because to her, its going to be her baby.
A wanted pregnancy is different because that mass of tissue is intended to become life, hence why people grieve over miscarriage etc. The reality of the matter is that a pregnant womans fetus is no more than a mass of tissue, much the same as an aborted fetus is. The only difference is the mother forms an emotional tie to the 'baby', has plans for it's future and is excited about becoming a mother.
I fail to see how it bellittles pregnancy, it's the reality of the matter, not much that can be done to change reality i'm afraid.
As for the father in the situation, its something a couple should always have talked about beforehand, otherwise you're in a messy situation where one person wants abortion and the other doesnt. But unfortunately, pregnancy is not equal to each partner, and whether the father likes it or not its the woman who has the right to choose to have the baby or abort. It's not fair, of course it isnt fair, but again, thats reality. There's no middle ground in that situation, there's no way to make each person happy. Are you suggesting that the woman should just have the baby she doesnt want in the first place to please a man?
I see what you were trying to do, and it was a fail. I can see you're obviously closed minded and your pathetic attempt to change my view was ridiculous.
And on that note, I think you pro-lifers are digusting people, in you're brainwashed mind you may think you're doing a good thing, but to the outside world all you're trying to do is take away other people rights to choice. Which according to the bible, did God not intend for us to have choice?
I mean if you ultimately want abortion to be ruled out as an option for everyone, you're playing God by taking the 'wrong' choice away, only allowing human beings to make the 'right' choice- that's not what God wanted for us, unless i'm mistaken?
@thisisme - 1) Murder is an illegal killing, since aboriton is legal, it is not murder. 2) You're argument is wasted as those who you are preaching to believe a fetus is not life, so therefore cannot be murder.
@kk_grayfox@xanga - agreed
Im feeling hypocrisy around here, maybe not prposeful but I'll just put this out there. I've worked as a pharmacy techinican for 11 years on and off, I met some real religious pharmcist who wont distibute morning after pills OR birth control. FACT IS birth control doesnt stop fertilization, in fact, its all in the name BIRTH CONTROL, It actually aborts the fetus when you get pregnant, so it doesnot prevent pregnancy, it kills life.
Sick, and its not like they are going to tell you straight out. Unless you are oblivious to such things, im sure if you have gotten pregnant on birth controll(very common) you were told to stop taking birth control. Why because its an abortion pill.
Natural Family Planning works better.
And yes, I'd rather live, I did grow up in a rough enviroment, but it was all the better for my faith in God.
That quote made me lol. People just change the way they picture pregnancy to fit their way of thinking. If it's an unwanted pregnancy, it's a "mass of tissue." I'm sure if their friend, aunt, mother was pregnant, it would be a baby and they'd be excited over it. To me, it's a baby from day one.
@Emmaleeloves@xanga - I've heard/read that it prevent ovulation. If you ovulate and do get pregnant and still take birth control it does not have a huge effect on the baby. I know a few people that got pregnant while they were on birth control, and continued to take the pill for a while. I have never heard before in my life that it aborts a fetus after fertilization.
I see so much compassion for clumps of cells. And if that's how you feel, great. But I assume
it transfers over to the actual children? 9, 10, 11
year olds are desperate for homes right now. How many unwanted teenagers are you planning to adopt? I'm just curious. If you are feel such compassion for cells then I can only imagine your deep compassion for the actual children, right?
Bottom line: If there were no unwanted children, If I couldn't go to a website and scroll through pages and pages of profiles of kiddos needing forever homes, I'd be 110x more likely to give my fetus a chance at life rather than abort. I bet many women feel the same way.
@marryingin2010@xanga - well you heard ad read incorrect, you are talking about a pharmacy professional here.
Im the one who hand you the drugs, Im the one who has to know the studies, good bad, what isnt told to the public and what is.
I bet its just an inconveinant fact, but go to pharmacy school or become a professinal which requires you to constantly study pharmacy and then you can confirm for yourself.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/learn/birth_control.asp
Wake up thou that sleepeth!!!! Ephesians 5:14 NKJV.
My people perish because of a lack of knowledge,.... but some have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you... Hosea 4:6 NKJV
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - This is the silliest thing I ever heard! FORCE MEN INTO PARENTHOOD ARE YOU SAYING THE WOMEN FORCED HIM TO SEX AND MADE HIM SPIT INSIDE???!! Because ITS pretty DOUBTFUL for a man to do while hes being raped.
that is just hilarious, knowledge people, knowledge, God gave you brains, use them.