That's the thing about pro-choice rhetoric: it only applies when we want it to.  If we applied the logic of abortion consistently, mourning a miscarriage would be incoherent.  

"Many condemn those radicals who are pro-life, not pro-choice."

that's because there is no such thing as a "radical" pro-choicer.  there is a difference between pro-choice, and pro-abortion.

"Never mind what the expected child's father wants, either."

so let me ask then: would you condone a woman being forced to have an abortion because the biological father doesn't want a kid?  either his say overrides the woman's both ways, or not at all.

"I was born to a woman in prison for writing bad checks. I was adopted by
good people who had already adopted my half-brother and later my
adoptive sister. They also provided foster care to about a dozen boys
over the years and treated all children as their own."

my mother had an abortion long before i was born... something like four or five years.  i have often pondered what it would be like to have had an older sibling, but then i realized the inevitable: if she had had THAT kid, she probably never would have had me. 

not to mention, i find far more joy in knowing that i'm alive today because i was wanted..... not because my mother was forced by law to give birth to me.  parenthood should always be entered into willingly.  that's why i support men AND women being allowed to sign away their rights at any time, and why i support voluntary child support only.  

"But I would rather grow up in a rough home than never have the chance to live at all."

The thing is, if you're a developing fetus, you have no consciousness and therefore you wouldn't have preferences about whether or not you'd like to live. I totally sympathize with this perspective, but (as ironic as this sounds) we can't anthropomorphize things and imagine that they have wishes, dreams and hopes of being born and growing up to be a fully-formed human being.

However, I realize that by my saying this, it creates all sorts of gray areas: "Well gosh, newborn babies don't have any hopes or dreams either! Why should we have to deal with this baby if it's simply an inconvenience?"

Perhaps it has something to do with the level of consciousness, though demarcating that is incredibly troublesome.

"When the pregnancy is one that is wanted and the child is wanted,
though, there is no doubt that it is a baby in there. When a woman
miscarries, a funeral is sometimes even held for the little one."

What if someone got pregnant and miscarried within one week due to a chromosomal error? Let's say they had no idea that they were pregnant and they weren't trying to get pregnant. Then you go up and tell them that they miscarried. Do you think they would hold a funeral for the aborted fetus?

I think for those that do hold funerals and grieve, it has a lot to do with whether or not they were trying to get pregnant (which you seemed to indicate). But it seems that people, even if they were pro-life, wouldn't have such an emotional reaction if my above scenario happened to them. Pregnancies can happen relatively frequently without people noticing and I would think it's hardly comparable to the death of a baby that a woman has been carrying for 8 months.

"I do condemn those who downplay the seriousness of aborting a child"

Though I don't agree with condemning them, I do think people should take abortions very seriously and not as some sort of late-term birth control.

My main issue regarding abortion is that I don't think pro-lifers or pro-choicers are completely correct, and yet they both bring some very important points. I think abortion has very many gray areas, and pro-choicers need to realize the seriousness of the issue and ask important questions (are you sure you're not murdering a child? Is the woman's "body" the most important thing to keep in mind?), and pro-lifers shouldn't be so adamant that life begins at conception (how do you even define life?) and that women who get abortions and doctors that perform them are acting out of evil (do you know their heart? Do you have any idea how hard it can be to get an abortion? What if the introduction of the child causes incredible poverty for the woman, leading to poverty, poor education, and overall decreased quality of life? You think the woman hasn't thought through these things).

@Starry_eyed_gypsy@xanga - "We, as Christians cannot force our laws onto
others, that's not fair, that's not our right and it is not what Jesus
told us to do."

Agreed. This applies to gay marriage and other issues as well.

@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - If the biological father doesn't want a kid he can choose to abandon him/her and his/her mother.  Which a woman should give that same benefit to a willing biological father.  If he wants his child then the woman should respect the fact that this child IS WANTED and will be well cared for and then give birth to the child and then walk away and abandon him/her with their loving father.  THAT is why not giving biological fathers their rights and say is so wrong & selfish.  How would we as women feel if it were the men carrying the babies and deciding the fates of their lives?  How do you think  you would feel if a man then aborted YOUR child because HE didn't want it but you did?  However it wasn't inside your body (which c'mon and admit - it is only 9 months out of 840 months of a lifetime (that is based on a 70 year lifetime). 

So nobody is asking for the man or the woman to trump anyone.  It's about equal rights and right now things are absolutely NOT equal.  Mens' hands are metaphorically tied behind their backs.  When it comes down to the lives of their children - that is NOT right. 

@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - So, if the man runs off after getting her pregnant, or after the child is born, you don't think he should have to pay child support?

I will never tell a woman considering abortion much of anything.  However, I will call it what it is and that is an "unborn child" or "baby" or sometimes an "embryo" or later on a "fetus".  Each person must decide for themselves how they feel about it since it is legal.  I think it is impossible (IMO) to decide what overrules what in this situation... a woman has a right to decide what happens to her body... and... a human in any stage of development has a right to life.  So, I call it a baby without judgment.  

@MagisterTom@xanga - Si senor!

it is such a mean tthing to say. a child is a child- no ifs and or buts

Actually, both my pregnancies were wanted (the second one more than the first) and I didn't refer to either of them as a baby.  They were either parasite or it until they were almost two months old and stopped resembling wrinkled old grumpy men.

@MagisterTom@xanga - as long as he signs away all rights to be involved in the child's life in the future, absolutely.  i'm not an advocate of forcing financial support. 

@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - 

Me: "How would we as women feel if it were the men carrying the babies and deciding the fates of their lives?"

You: "that's
kind of irrelevant because, without some miracle of science, it will
never be that way.  the bottom line is, the woman is the one who has to
carry the pregnancy to term.  no one else should have more of a say in
that pregnancy than her."

If more people thought the way you do, then I am sure the world would be a much colder, darker place.
Should we not teach people to have compassion?  In order to have compassion a person has to put themselves mentally in the place of the other person to truly understand how they feel about something.  That is why we have bully issues in schools today - nobody has taught those children about compassion, about putting themselves in the "shoes" of the child they're tormenting.   A man who beats & abuses women can think the same way you do by saying he is NOT the woman, nor will he ever be so it is irrelevant how she feels about the abuse.

Me:   "However it wasn't inside your body (which c'mon and admit - it is only 9 months out of 840 months of a lifetime (that is based on a 70 year lifetime). "

You: "right, NOW who isthe one belittling pregnancy and parenthood?"

Yeah, I don't see how that is belittling pregnancy and parenthood at all.  It is simply showing those who PRETEND that 9 months is too horrendously long and horrible to "endure" for a pregnancy.  I'm simply reminding them that 9 months isn't that long compared to 840 months (give or take for each individual's lifetime.)  So that was an unsuccessful attempt at twisting my words.

Me: "It's about equal rights and right now things are absolutely NOT equal."

You: "then they should be equal in all circumstances.  not just when it's advantageous for pro-lifers."

Wow, have you ever seen pro-lifers twist the facts and call an unborn baby "a cluster of cells" or twist reality like that?  And I don't see pro-lifers denying the men/fathers their rights in the whole thing. 

@Thoughts_of_Motherhood@xanga - 

"Should we not teach people to have compassion?"

teach?  yes.  enforce through law?  no.

"Wow, have you ever seen pro-lifers twist the facts and call an unborn baby "a cluster of cells" or twist reality like that? "

no, but i've seen pro-lifers care more about unborn babies than children already in existence, let alone the woman they'd love to force into parenthood.

and, by the way, it's not twisting the facts: a fetus is just that... a fetus.  whether it's wanted or not.  perhaps i'm not conservative enough for ya, but as a previous comment said, i'll be referring to my fetus as "it" whenever i do happen to get pregnant.

" And I don't see pro-lifers denying the men/fathers their rights in the whole thing. "

then, as i said before, you should support the father's right to force the woman to have an abortion.  do you?