Thursday, 17 March 2011
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"Pray the Gay Away?" - My Take, Part 2
"I hated being gay; I hated who I was. Exodus was my attempt to be someone else." -- Michael Bussee, co-founder of Exodus InternationalI recently blogged about the latest episode of Lisa Ling's new show, Our America. The episode was entitled "Pray the Gay Away?" and discussed the issue of faith and homosexuality: can the two coexist? In my previous post I reviewed the first half of the episode in which Ling talked to Christians who reject their same-sex attractions in pursuit of what they consider God's best for their lives; in this post, I'll examine Ling's coverage of Christians who embrace their homosexuality. Once again, you can view the entire episode online.
Contrasting her interview with Alan Chambers, current president of Exodus International, Ling also spoke with Michael Bussee, one of the original founders of Exodus who has since left the organization and pursued a gay relationship with another man. When he talked about his decision to leave Exodus, he brought up some sobering realities -- mainly, the severe depression rampant among Christians wrestling with their homosexual attractions. Through tears, Bussee spoke vividly of how one particular man mutilated his body after a sexual encounter with another man. Gut-wrenching.
Bussee saw same-sex attracted Christians falling apart around him and realized his sexuality weren't changing; so when he started falling in love with another man, he stopped fighting his attractions and finally embraced them.
But that doesn't mean he ditched God in the process. When asked whether he thought he and his partner were living in sin, Bussee responded he didn't feel his life was "interesting enough" to be considered sin -- meaning that aside from the genders, he considered his marriage just like any other. A partnership built on love between two people.
Too often Christians will lambaste homosexual relationships and decry them as abominations without love. But to point at this issue from the outside and shout, "That's lust, not love!" is both hasty and hateful. Gay people are capable of love too; these are human beings, not despicable monsters.
Bussee explained that his being gay and being Christian are so ingrained that to deny either would cause an "unbearable split." Being gay, he believes, is part of God's wonderful diversity in nature, and by embracing both his sexuality and his faith, he's found wholeness.
I look back to when Ling asked Chambers whether he thought he was living a lie amid his marriage to a woman. As with Chambers, I repeat of anyone wanting to judge Bussee: who is anyone to tell another his life is a lie? He's reconciled this issue with God and experienced what he calls wholeness. As with anyone, his life is God's to judge alone; our job is to love.
Supplementing her visit to an Exodus conference, Ling also traveled to a camp-like retreat led by The Naming Project, an organization seeking "to provide a safe and sacred space where youth of all sexual orientations and gender identities are named and claimed by a loving God." I believe with all my heart that God does love homosexuals, contrary to what some insane "Christian" protesters with hateful signs declare. But as I considered the truth of God's love, I couldn't help thinking back to a line in Max Lucado's Just Like Jesus:
"God loves you just the way you are, but He refuses to leave you that way."
Yes, there are thousands upon thousands living with homosexual attractions, either fueled by their environments or ingrained within from birth. God loves each and every one of them -- but does His love simply stop there? What if He does have something better in store and doesn't want to leave any of us "just the way we are"?
My heart breaks for those kids at The Naming Project who have undoubtedly been verbally/emotionally blasted beyond what any human should ever experience -- especially from within the Church.
The Church. The Body of Christ.
How could the hands and feet of Christ possibly be used to mutilate these confused hurting souls? It blows my mind. But then, I have my own flaws within this same Body and haven't always responded to others with love. After hearing these tear-drenched stories, I pray I'll respond more and more with God's love.
Ling summed up her show with the observation that everyone she interviewed on this journey was seeking the same basic thing: acceptance. Acceptance from God, acceptance from loved ones and acceptance from themselves. Isn't this what we all strive for, regardless of our struggle? Don't we all just want to be accepted and loved? I find it heartbreaking that so many people desperately desire acceptance today.
I thought Alan Chambers's closing words were incredible, as he didn't condemn people like Michael Bussee or those at The Naming Project. "God's after our heart," he stated, asserting that those whose hearts are God's would certainly join him in heaven someday, regardless.
We hear so much about gay marriage in the news today, but how often do we hear about homosexuality within the Church? Christians deal with homosexuality too, and I hope the Church starts addressing this issue more. May we all be challenged to love a little more today. As my favorite musical group Casting Crowns soberly addresses:
If we are the Body, why aren't His arms reaching? Why aren't His hands healing? Why aren't His words teaching? Why aren't His feet going?
Let's reach. Let's heal. Let's teach.
Let's go.
If you watched the entire Our America episode, what are your thoughts on it? Do you think Ling did a fair job covering both sides of the issue? Do you think the Church judges more than loves when it comes to this controversial issue of homosexuality? How can we all be more loving to people affected by homosexuality?
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Comments (72)
Hitler killed gay people by dousing them in kerosene and setting them on fire.....and the Church supported him. Christians as a whole are war mongers. They can't keep a torch to themselves without setting other people up on fire. Gay people are peaceful dudes. That is why they work in the fashion industry.
The moral of the story is that you can't be Gay....and be Christian. However you can be Gay and be Buddhist...which the Dalai Lama approves of.
I didn't watch the show so I can't answer the first two questions, but I might watch it later. :)
Do you think the Church judges more than loves when it comes to this controversial issue of homosexuality? I kind of answered this question in part I. Yes, I absolutely think the church judges more than loves in regards to homosexuality. I think this is true of many sins though and not just this one. It is a sad fact about our church and culture today... A lot of people have totally missed the point. How can we all be more loving to people affected by homosexuality? I don't really know how as a whole we can become more loving, but perhaps some are confusing loving with correcting? Correcting is loving. I did say that I think the church is judgmental, and I still stand by that point, however, I think many people cry out "judgmental" whenever anyone tries to "correct" anyone else. So, what should we do about that? Can we fix it? Or is that just a "fact of the Christian life"? Anyway, back to the actual question... I'm not 100% sure how we can be more loving. Of course, "being there" and not being "condemning" or judgmental are good. I don't agree that you can be a PRACTICING (i.e. you have a "partner") homosexual and not be in sin (and lust is a sin for any type of sexuality, no matter if it could lead to a "not sinful marriage"), therefore, I think the loving thing to do would be to point this out - however, not w/o getting the darn log out of your own eye! (Matt 7, Luke 6). And, I agree, God can (and I absolutely beleive WILL -- eventually) change hearts - we won't be left where we are. Prayer is definitely a good thing. :)
@frostbitpanda@xanga - @frostbitpanda@xanga - "Hitler killed gay people by dousing them in kerosene and setting them on fire.....and the Church supported him."
I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you produce a citation for that?
"Christians as a whole are war mongers."
That's an ignorant comment, and presumably emotionally charged. Are there Christian warmongers? Unfortunately, and antithetically, yes. But there are also atheist, muslim, buddhist, and hindu war mongers, and to say that any of these groups, or Christians, are "as a whole warmongers" is patently false.
"The moral of the story is that you can't be Gay....and be Christian."
That's untrue, in that you can be gay, straight, married, single, black, white, brown, yellow, a drug addict, sober, and any number of other things and be Christian. Christianity is defined by your relationship with God based off of Christ's sacrifice. Anybody and everybody is invited, regardless of any characteristic a single person may possess.
Now, whether or not God wants a Christian to remain homosexual should they be is where the contention arises. Most Christians think homosexuals are the product of abuse or lust, so they would naturally believe that God wants to help them with that. Though I think that this is true for some homosexuals (these would actually be heterosexuals practicing homosexual behavior), for other homosexuals (those born or developed that way) I believe God supports their homosexuality. I say this as a Christian, and there are many other Christians, some of which are homosexual, who espouse this same view.
Finally, some buddhists do oppose same-sex marriage, even if it's more so due to cultural reasons: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd.htm
and the Dalai Lama at least on a few occasions has explained that same-sex intercourse is considered "sexual misconduct" from a Buddhist point of view: http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/buddhism.htm
I really like the thoughtfulness of your two posts. I have been a Christian almost my entire life and was raised going to church. I believe and love God. In my life, I have met countless Christians who strongly believe that you can't be gay and be a Christian. I know that I cannot interpret God's word to my liking or know precisely what God thinks about all issues. However, I strongly feel that you can be gay and be a Christian. If, as a Christian, someone feels that homosexuality is a sin, then a gay person is a sinner. Yet, is a straight person not also a sinner? Can someone that commits infidelity not be a Christian? Can someone that steals not be a Christian? On the same note, can someone who continues to commit sin (which we all do on a daily basis) not go to heaven? We are all sinners, but we have the ability to accept Christ into our lives despite our faults. For this reason, as I have never felt the right to judge myself or any other Christian as a "better" Christian than someone who is gay and believes, because really, what makes me better? Who can tell a gay person that they can't believe in God if they feel a certain way?
Sorry for the rant.
The problem with Christians' views on homosexuality isn't that they are cruel to them, it isn't that they take their rights away, or that they publicly declare opposition.
It's that they think it's wrong. Just that, period.
Thanks for the rights, thanks for the better treatment in church, thanks for the end of the mass killings.
But you still think it's wrong.
I am not saying that someone who is gay and a believer in Christ should or shouldn't act on their feelings, but I merely wanted to state how I felt about the idea of someone concomitantly being a believer and also being attracted to the same sex.
Again, thanks for the post.
@Rachel - I understand what you are saying, but I have to interject something here. To live as a Christian is to attain a life that is more "Christ like-" This goes back to what Twobex said in regards to the issue "That God will not allow you to remain that way." - When you are truly SAVED, God will not allow you to remain in a place of sin because He loves you too much, you are HIS.
You might sin, you might STUMBLE, you might crawl on your hands and knees, dragging your own sin. But, God will not allow you to remain there. Jesus FREES us from sin.
The problem that most people have with homosexuals is that they "embrace" it... once you've embraced it entirely, you're essentially giving God the perverbial finger. You are saying that God made a mistake in your sexual identity and what He made you to be.
Think of it this way for a moment. If biologically, God made you a MAN, then He has a purpose for your life, and it probably involves having a wife and family (These things God has ALREADY planned for you) because He made us this way biologically. So, if we say to Him, "I feel gay, so I am going to believe that you wanted me to be gay." - You're basically saying "God, you made a mistake, and your plans are false."
It is DIFFERENT to struggle with homosexuality. Many many many christians do. Accepting it and deciding that it's who you are and living with someone of the same gender is telling God that your plans are more important.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
The difference between someone who is heterosexual and sins and someone who is gay and sins is that a gay person who has accepted his sin is in a constant STATE of sin. But, I would also say this in regards to say, the heterosexual man who is heavily addicted to porn and has no desire to get help for it, and accepts it as "part of himself" -
It's when you accept it as "you" that it becomes a problem and makes Christians question "salvation".
"ACCEPTING" your sin is not Christ like. Denying it is.
@frostbitpanda@xanga - I think humans as a whole are war mongers. And even that is a blanket statement, because i'm human and i'm certainly not interested in war, and i know i'm not alone. Many nations who are not christian have engaged in the same behavior. The Soviet Union is an obvious one. Look what China has done to Christians and Tibetans over the last 60 years. The problem is not so much the tool, as how it used. Kinda like, it's not the gun, it's whose holding it.
@LKJSlain@xanga - It's not a Christians job to questions anothers salvation, at least according to words accreditted to Jesus.
"..his life is God's to judge alone; our job is to love."
Amen, writer.
@jaydedheart@xanga - Actually, the bible tells us all over the place to judge. "Judge with righteous judgment"...
@LKJSlain@xanga - It also says not to judge, lest you be judged. Which leads me to a conclusion that it's a very contridictory book. But i do think Jesus has good footsteps to follow.
@jaydedheart@xanga - It's not contradictory at all. The passage you're referring to is in Matthew, seven I believe. It's referring to hypocrisy. In this chapter, the context is essentially saying that if you're going to judge, be prepared to be judged back. You will be judged with the same measure that you judge. It's a warning about HOW you judge, not that you shouldn't. Go read the chapter, it's pretty cut and dry.
The bible tells us all over to judge. It also tells us how we will know one another.
@LKJSlain@xanga - I'm familiar with the text. First remove the plank from your eye. In short, you can't fully see another person for why they do what they do until your sight is clear(perfect). Ie. Until/unless you are God.
@LKJSlain@xanga - I think it's kinda like the song Man In The Mirror, if we're concerned with the way the world is, we have to start with seeing what we can do differently. Likewise, if a Christian is concerned about the glory and honor of God, and about God being offended by sin, they should start with themselves. Do you follow all of the ten(twelve) commandments, and consistently? That's not something i'm literally asking you to tell me, but do you gather what i'm saying?
@jaydedheart@xanga - No, I do not follow all of the ten commandments consistently and I have no problem admitting that.
But do you understand what I was originally trying to say?
What I was saying is that when a person is saved, the bible teaches us that God/Jesus frees us from sin. If a person is LIVING in sin, that is different from struggling/stumbling. If we understand the bible's truth the Christ frees us from sin, then a person could not logically live freely gay and be saved.
Do I know that for sure? God will judge. But, based on the bible, the answer is no.
@LKJSlain@xanga -
"If biologically, God made you a MAN, then He has a purpose for your life, and it probably involves having a wife and family "
I dont agree with your statement that Gods purpose for a man is to have a wife and kids. Paul went so far as to say its better to be single and celibate then to be married. If thats true then why would Gods purpose for a man who struggles with homosexual desires "probably" be marriage??
Overall I think its not a good idea to put pressure on someone with same sex attractions to get married with a member of the opposite sex. If eventually they come to this decision on their own and fall in love with a woman who can accept them and their struggles thats a different story. But I dont think the church should put pressure on people who struggle with same sex attractions to marry the opposite sex as a way to show they are "healed". It could (and has in the past) caused some people with SSA to end up getting married just to try to "prove" that they are healed when they are in no way ready for that step.
@LKJSlain@xanga - Very apt replies. When it comes to homosexuality as a lifestyle or any choice to continue living in sin as a way of life, a distinction must be made. The "Apostle of Love", John, stated very clearly that if we continue in sin, we practice lawlessness and do not really understand who God is (1 Jn 3:4-6). This does not mean that one that is tempted or falls from time to time is living in unrighteousness, but one that does not agree with God about sin is resisting the Creator/Savior God and ultimately rejecting Him.
@frostbitpanda@xanga - remember homosexuality is a sin and we're all sinners as Christians. So you can admit your sexual orientation just as how you can admit you are selfish, greedy etc, but with the strength of God to demolish these things for the pursue of an amazing fulfilling life.
@LKJSlain@xanga - Yet Christ himself said "ye without sin cast the first stone." No human is without sin therefore none of us are free to judge one another. We are to love, accept, and pray for those who are lost. And as I have stated before, God does not make mistakes. I am a Christian who is friends with many gay Christians. They did not choose to be gay, why would anyone choose to be gay in a world where they are bullied, attacked, killed, and made to be second class citizens? They have known from a young age within their hearts and souls that they are different. God made them that way, and the God I love does not make mistakes. So perhaps as Christians we should stop judging, accept our brothers and sisters, and allow them to live their lives for love even though our idea of love is different. God does not hate, we humans hate. We fill our lives with so much hate that it makes us sick and miserable. Not too long ago Christians taught in their churches that anyone of a certain race was not a child of God and that they could not be saved. That anyone who loved one of them and married them was committing a sin. We Christians woke up and realized this was wrong.(well most of us.) And I can understand where one of the others is coming from in his reference to the holocaust. While Hitler was murdering 6 million people, the majority of the Church stood by and did nothing to help. There are the few exceptions, but not many. He did choose to say it in a rather tasteless way, but I understood his point. Now let's stop arguing and hating, and just love as Christ commanded. Otherwise our lives will be full of pain and misery.
@wanderingthoughtsofabrokenman@xanga - Paul said that it was better for a man to remain single because it's easier to serve God that way. (Read it) Most theologians believe that Paul had already been married many years ago and that his wife had passed away because his station would have required him to be married.
Regardless, comparing the two have nothing to do with one another. If biologically God made you a man, then if He DOES have marriage plans for you, they're of the plans for the oposite gender. One of the reasons we know this is because the ENTIRE bible says so... Every family is Male and female. Not to mention that marriage ITSELF mirrors Christ's relationship with the church (again, this is illustrated throughout the bible) and God created male and female to work together.
Also, I never said that I WOULD pressure someone of same sex attractions to marry a member of oposite sex. Only speaking what I know is true. :)
@Resilient_Light@xanga - Everything that you just said tells me that you need to re-read what I already wrote.
I'll give you a recap-
God DOES hate.(it's in the bible)
We ARE allowed to judge (that's in the bible too)
And there is a difference between "struggling" with sin, and LIVING in it.
If Christ frees us from sin, then no one can REMAIN in their sin as a Christian, partly because Christ loves us too much, and He will not allow us to remain in darkness.
1 Jn 3:4-6 -Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
If you have a problem with all of these statements, then take them up with the bible, and God. Don't blame me for what the good book says.
And just so you understand, just because someone WAS gay doesn't mean that I would treat them any different personally than anyone else. On the contrary, I have a very big heart for gay people, I love them very dearly, and pray for them, but that does NOT mean that I support their decisions.
@Resilient_Light@xanga - My problem with the whole "God doesn't make mistakes" argument is that it assumes that if something is inborn, it is from God. However, according to the Bible, everyone is born with a sinful nature. I know I was, and not just with regards to my sexuality (which is bisexual in orientation, although I'm celibate until heterosexual marriage as a result of my convictions.) As I mentioned in another thread, I have a tendency to be prideful and to be complacent about "the least of these." Even a hateful, judgmental attitude is part of fallen sinful nature. Does this mean that God makes mistakes? No, it doesn't - it means that we have all been impacted by the Fall. So it is at least logically consistent to say that a non-heterosexual orientation (or a heterosexual orientation with impulses towards multiple men/women, which is the common case) is a result of the Fall, even if it is inborn. As Christians, we thus ought to look to the Bible to determine how to respond. The arguments about the Bible's stance on homosexuality are far too involved to have any useful discussion in a Revelife comment thread, but my conviction from studying them is that homosexual behavior is outside of God's will.
Of course, we are called to love people, and one of the questions at the end of this post is how that looks. Certainly much injustice is done towards gay people, whether in the form of bullying, false stereotypes, loss of friendships, or any other wrong way Christians and others have reacted. And I would certainly agree that people need to come to their own convictions, and we cannot ultimately be the judge over someone else's life. However, I do know there are appropriate circumstances to confront a brother or sister in Christ of sin, and those who are not in Christ are subject to God's judgment, and sometimes it's appropriate to warn people about that. I'm certainly not saying that every comment about the sinfulness of homosexuality is appropriate, but I don't think it makes sense to jump to the other extreme and assume that "not throwing stones" means never calling anyone out. In fact, your own post is calling people out for being too judgmental!
@LKJSlain@xanga, @wanderingthoughtsofabrokenman@xanga - I think you two are talking past each other somewhat. I know wanderingthoughtofabrokenman and happen to know that he understands that God's design for marriage is heterosexual. He wasn't trying to say that gay marriage is OK in God's eyes. Rather, I think he was pointing out that some people don't develop the necessary heterosexual attractions to lead to a marriage that is fair to the opposite-sex attracted person, and that is probably an indication that God's plan for a person is singleness. He was taking exception to your statement that God's plans for any man "probably" involve marriage to a woman. That is certainly a very common call, but some guys are called to singleness. It can certainly be a difficult call, but non an unbiblical one.
@neo14142@xanga - of course dear. :) I was just clarifying. :) Have a sweet day.