Sunday, 13 March 2011
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A Reasonable Argument for God
I was reading an article by a Rabbi about the existence of God. In it, he says that perhaps one of the stronger "scientific" arguments right now is that we don't have any proof to the contrary, evidence that says God doesn't exist. He points out that, with all of our scientific knowledge of genetics, we ought to have at least a basic idea how all life started. And yet, we don't.It got me to thinking; in the past month or so, I've been in two conversations about that with total strangers. Both times, I was with my boyfriend, who is a seminary student. The first time, we were waiting at the bus stop so I could go home for the night, when a man walked over to us. He asked us if we knew Jesus. Of course, our answer was yes. He then asked us why we believed in God (and then went on to tell us that he is a Christian, too). The second time was on a Greyhound, coming back for spring break. We were having simultaneous conversations with the people in the rows in front of and behind us. The young man in front of us, a self-proclaimed non-believer, asked us why we believe that there is a God.
Both were candid, revealing moments for us. My response, both times, was that believing in God makes more sense than not believing. Until science gives us better answers, divine creation makes more sense than random happenstance. And besides that, I have this feeling that there has to be more to this world than just "fact" and "science", such as it is. My boyfriend's response was more along the lines of his relationship with God the Trinity. He has felt God's presence, and he has a relationship with God.
Our answers are so different, and yet, they are both "valid" reasons for believing in God. It was an interesting chance to see what we believe. I feel that thinking about our faith this way is a good exercise to see what importance we put on God and to make us better witnesses.
Have you been in a similar situation, where a stranger has asked you about your belief? In a sentence or two, can you summarize your reasons for believing (or not believing) in God?
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- From: Katja88@xanga
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Comments (17)
I have no proof that Cthulhu doesn't sleep at the bottom of the ocean. His evil is evident throughout the world, and his divine form appears in all cephalopods. I feel his presence, and that validates the strong relationship I have with him. Some might say I'm a Lovecraftian, but really, I'm a follower of Cthulhu. There's a difference.
I'm the opposite, I wont believe until some sort of god is proven. I don't fill in the gaps of science with folk lore.
I do not believe in God because psychology has proven that people are led to believe in things that are not real (like psychics, fortune-tellers, and healers) that cause us to act irrationally. Believing in God causes us to act irrationally.
I not believe in a Judeo-Christian God because his rules are also illogical and harming
There is no reason why a person cannot marry another person if they are in love (homosexuality is not a sin).
There is no reason why a person who does good should go to hell because of their belief.
The idea of his existence is also illogical.
If he is all powerful, why can't he stop all the bad stuff in the world.
If something good happens, why does he get all the credit, yet when something bad happens he doesn't get all the credit (or it's for a good cause).
If he has plans for all of us, why are we praying for him to change those plans,
And who are we to predict or say what his plans for us our (what God wanted us to have a sex-change, to murder these people, or to be homosexuals).
Everything good seems subjective, and yet unreasonable and illogical.
I don't think this is a good reason to believe in God, at least not for myself. We also can't disprove the existence of a third neutral magnetic particle that doesn't affect physics but is there, but that doesn't mean I believe in it. Besides, there are some theories on how life was formed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Current_models). They're far from proven, but no scientific theory can be proven. But we know that amino acids, the basis of organic life, can be formed in the conditions that we believe the early Earth was under (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment). We know cell membranes, or things that look like it, can be spontaneously formed. So there's enough models to show that it is possible, regardless of how it actually happened.
I try not to put too much faith into things that I don't have a good reason to believe are true, the existence God being one of those things. These reasons can come from many places, such as reading a study, hearing a well-reasoned argument, logic, and personal experience. However, I say I "try" to do this because I admit there are some assumptions I make, and I'm probably not aware of most of the assumptions I make without a good reason to make them. But I strive for perfection in this area, or as close as I can reasonably get without causing detriment to my life.
I am personally agnostic. I believe that, almost by definition, I can't know whether or not God exists. But until I have good evidence to the contrary, I live my life as if God does not exist since I don't want to rely heavily on something that I don't know exists.
Using this as a good reason to believe in God is the same as using the "lack of evidence" that there is a God to prove that God doesn't exist. I feel like it is a weak argument.
I am a very strong Christian. I first was found because I had been broken. When you are broken, you really realize that there is something missing in your life. Before that, I was able to ignore it. All this stuff about God versus evolution and the big bang theory don't really mean much anymore. Maybe God created the big bang theory? Maybe God had His hand in evolution?
What makes Christianity so real are the real testimonies from real people. I have known people from all different backgrounds who are following Christ. I had a very good childhood, one that many American's wish they had, somewhat along the lines of reaching for the "American Dream." However, I ended up coming to Christ. I know friends who have had really tough lives and they end up coming to Christ. I can actually FEEL the presence of God though. That's what makes it so REAL. I see His light in my friends. I can tell He is guiding us and working in our lives.
Just using a lack of evidence to prove something else seems....not right. Besides, we have plenty of evidence to prove Christ was here on earth, performing miracles. If we prove Christ, that proves God himself...that is just using cold hard evidence.
Case for Christ-Lee Strobel
@Kara_K - In the beginning of the Bible, is the book Genesis. In this book, within the first couple chapters, it talks about the fall of man. God created people in His own image. He gave them the Garden of Eden, with the only rule saying that they could not eat off the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve ended up taking the apple from the tree and sharing it with Adam. From then on, the knowledge of good and evil has been passed down. We, as people, now cannot go through life with out sinning.
I would like to say that Christians are not God. We KNOW that we need him because we are not perfect. We will sin. Since we are going to sin, pain is inevitable. Some people follow other Gods. They turn away from God. Since He gave us free will, He doesn't force them back. People who don't have the guidance from God, and even some who do, end up doing horrible things like assaulting, murdering, or any other thing that causes pain to people. BUT THAT IS NOT BECAUSE OF JESUS. That is from the flesh, temptation of the world, and Satan. (from the flesh meaning sins that are because your body physically wants something...say an apple from the Garden of Eden).
God does NOT cause pain. In fact, in my own experiences, I can tell you that God HEALS pain. I can see it according to other people's stories. It breaks His heart that we have to hurt, but we bring it on ourselves...
@alyssaarndt@xanga - although I respect and thank you for your attempt in clarifying, what you said did not address my arguments.
You said every bad thing is the work of Satan. Ok, let's say that it is true.
Yet, if God is so powerful, he could undo all of Satan's works...yet he chooses not to.
Japan has just suffered an earthquake and a tsunami leading thousands of people to die. You might say that is the work of Satan, but why didn't God prevent it? He has the powers. Are you saying all those people were bad?
He is hurt when we are hurt? But we bring it upon ourselves? No, he controls everything. He can make it stop.
Now, granted, these arguments do not prove there is a God or there is no God. But it does lead me to believe that if there is a God, he is neither active nor loving.
@Kara_K - In that, I was saying that God didn't cause the bad stuff to happen. That was a misconception.
If God stopped everything bad that happened in the earth, it would take away free will. That's what I was trying to say. Because with our own free will and fallings (not just from satan, but from selfish desires as well) we sin, which causes pain and bad things to happen. In order for us not to sin, He would have to make all the choices, which would be taking away our free will.He could. He could undo all of Satan's works. He does have control. But He also has knowledge. He knows that if He forced us to love and follow Him, that it wouldn't be real love. Sometimes real love hurts, but it's so much more meaningful than forced love.I am not saying all the people are bad. I'm not saying any of them are. If God does something that seems bad to us, I trust that He has reason for it that outweighs the cost significantly. If I claimed that I knew why Japan had a huge natural disaster, I would be lying. So would anyone who claimed to know. Sometimes things just aren't just aren't known to us and it's hard for us to see any good that came of it.
@alyssaarndt@xanga - If God stopped everything bad that happened in the earth, it would take away free will.
If God wants us to have free will, he would then choose not to control anything.
He would not have plans for us, nor punish us, nor heal us.
He would want us to have our free will. He is then inactive.
I trust that He has reason for it that
outweighs the cost significantly. Sometimes things just aren't known to us and it's
hard for us to see any good that came of it.
I cannot see the reason in anything that has to do with God. If there is a reason that supports what God does, then they are all flawed, and I would not want to support an unreasonable, irrational God.
If God is knowledgeable, then his knowledge has been negatively represented.
@Kara_K - Free will in choices. "If you love someone let them go, if they return, they are yours." (I know this is a stretch for a quote, but it was a good way to explain it). God wants us to choose to follow Him. Once we decide to follow Him, He helps us out and guides us. That does NOT mean that bad things wont happen. It doesn't mean that people are not going to get hurt.
I'm not going to lie. I don't have the answers to everything. I have been a Christ follower for 6 months. I know that some things I will never know. Some things are never going to be revealed in our life times. What I know is that God has an amazing way of healing people. Also, fulfilling them. I can see the positive effects all around.
I don't know why the natural disaster in Japan happened. But just like you would have to trust people around you in making their own decisions, I have to trust God. I have to trust that He does what He knows is best. Even if it's way over our heads. (Not saying that God caused this, just the obvious, that He didn't stop it from happening).
You know what, I believe that humans are naturally weak creatures, and in times of great peril, they need to rely on some form higher being to be their pillar, or light of hope to keep them standing. There is also nothing that could disprove that God do exist, because the universe is so vast. The fact that were just mere speck in this vast universe is reason enough to believe that we still have no sufficient knowledge or evidence to also disprove it.
I often tell people that my faith isn't dependent on the existence of God, which is usually met with the response of, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard." But it's not, and here's why:
The typical Evangelical view of Christianity (being that we're all sinners, Christ came to die to forgive us so that we can go to Heaven) imposes a view upon the world, that is, that Humans are bad. That bit alone can be rejected as people see beauty and kindness in others all the time, even those (and especially those, often enough) that are not Christians. The second piece of the Theology says that the reason people are on this planet is so that they can go to Heaven, which then requires proof that God exists, otherwise the whole point of the Religion is rendered inert. Now, what I believe is quite different. In Genesis, we see the story of Adam and Eve, living in a world that is a perfect paradise. After eating the fruit, the world is thrown into Chaos. Pain, death, disease, hardship all enter the world. This is not an imposed view of the world, but rather something drawn from the nature of the world. Every day, we see natural disasters, we see good people getting the short end of the stick and bad people rising to power. The world is not as God wants it.At one point, the world gets so bad that God wipes everyone out and starts over. But this is a cruel thing to do, and he promises to never do it again. So he enacts a new plan. He goes to this guy named Abraham and he tells him that through him, the nations of the world will be blessed. From Abraham, Israel is born, and its purpose is to show the world how to be right with God. But they fail, horribly.So God comes here himself. He shows humankind how to change the world through love, and he creates a people that is not defined by an ethnicity (like the rest of the world) but by the new life they have been given. Through this, Heaven and Earth will collide. This view of Christianity talks about God, but the first thing it does is shows you that the world sucks but there's something that can be done. Through this, I am led to believe in God. My faith in Christ led me to believe in God, not vice versa. And I will continue to believe because I have seen this work, I have seen the power of these words ripple through the world. I will continue to believe because I have never seen such beauty.@methodElevated@xanga - This, basically. It sounds silly and that's the point.Â
Believing in something because there's no proof it doesn't exist is always astounding for me to hear. Why is it that when a person hears and talks to an invisible, quiet unicorn that lives in their kitchen cupboard, that person is classified as schizophrenic? Prove that there ISN'T a unicorn there!
@Just_For_Shits_And_Giggles@xanga - If someone claims there something exists the "burden of proof" goes onto the one claiming the existence, not the one claiming it's non-existence.
We call the person who talks to an invisible, quiet unicorn a schiziophrenic because he is so sure that he is talking to an invisible unicorn and wonders why no one else can see it. If he wants me to believe that there is a unicorn there, he needs to prove that there is a unicorn there.
Believing in something because there's no proof is better than believing in something without proof because we then hastily make assumptions without good reasoning.
@Kara_K - I completely agree with you. :)
@Just_For_Shits_And_Giggles@xanga - Oh, I'm so sorry if I sounded against you,
I didn't catch your post clearly.
Deepest apologies...I feel silly now.
@Kara_K - It's cool. I still agree with you. :P