By Nick Don at Theopolitical
John Piper has a whole line of short videos on the desiringGod account at youtube. I’ve blogged before about my frustrations with John Piper, whom I admire and disagree with in equal measure. Watching him express his views on alcohol in this short, pastoral forum has made it clearer to me how phrase my frustration.
I have difficulty with John Piper the theologian. But I admire, respect and want to continue to learn from John Piper the pastor.
Theologically, Piper and I step all over each other. We may not agree on 1 in 10 non-essential matters. But pastorally his drive, his concern and his very obvious love for his parishioners is exactly where they need to be, and stand as a challenge to both pastors and theologians church-wide.
You can see it in how he addresses the subject of Christians and drinking. I happen to agree with him here, both that alcohol can be a gift from God (“We should thank God for beer and burgundy by not drinking too much” – Chesterton), and that too cavalierly expressing that gift can be damaging to others and to our own witness.
The comments page for this video show mostly Christians who think Piper is being too charitable here. They make the standard Baptist arguments about alcohol content in our culture versus first century Palestine, about when drinking becomes drunkennees (“Would it be okay to smoke just one joint?”) and so forth.
But Piper focuses the issue away from ridiculous line-drawing and toward “a pattern of life.” His pastoral concern is evident, and he speaks with earned credibility to the damage alcohol does to individuals and communities. From Piper’s perspective, we’re wrong when he make alcohol out to be evil, and we’re equally wrong when we act like alcohol is no big deal.
What do you think? Is Piper offering the best perspective on the issue? What would you add or modify?
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Comments (15)
How do you theologically disagree with Piper? Do you have issue with God being sovereign?
@NightCometh@xanga - LOL! Cut right to the chase, doncha?
As far as the alcohol is concerned, Piper hits it right on the head. The Bible does NOT teach abstinence when it comes to alcohol, it teaches moderation.
I agree about moderation with alcohol. Know your limits and if you have no idea, then don't do it.
Smoking a joint is illegal...and we know what the Bible says about following worldly laws.
I completely agree with his view on alcohol.
God never says that we can't drink alcohol. He says that we shouldn't get drunk. But he also says not to let temptation to get in the way of our relationship with Him, so if getting drunk is too much of a temptation, you need to get rid of alcohol completely from your life.
And I'm not sure I understand your reason for using the term "standard Baptist argument."
Jesus drank wine, the end.
Jesus turned water into wine... Scripture states not to get drunk, it doesn't mention anywhere not to drink... Wine symbolically is a representation of pleasure, delight, and fun hence wine being located at all the parties that Jesus went to... Mark Driscoll states it quite nicely, "If you're gonna drink, drink like Jesus." and issues forth 3 guidelines to follow... and if you want to tighten your belt tighter and tuck in your shirt more, there may be 4... but the 3 that Driscoll notes is, "Don't get drunk..." "Don't get others drunk..." and "Don't break the Law..." the 4th one is "Don't cause anyone else to stumble..." but I'm leary w/ that one particularly because someone can use that as an enslaving element towards legalism...
John Piper also notes that the REASON why he DOESN'T drink in the video is because he has a very addictive personality... recall that he says he won't buy gum because he knows he'll go through it in less than an hour... so, out of wisdom and personal conviction sake, he won't drink BECAUSE he knows his own personal weaknesses and it wouldn't be wise...
In one sermon, Mark Driscoll states that there is a big difference between personal preference and Scriptural mandates... if you don't drink, that is your personal preference... but don't make personal preference Law... legalists do... there are things in the Bible we shouldn't do... don't have sex outside of marriage, don't kill... those things... the Bible says nothing about smoking cigarettes, but it does say be wise, and smoking is just dumb... but being a Christian is not about not smoking, cussing, or drinking...
it's about repentance and faith towards the person and work of Christ... and Piper won't be hesitant to tell you that either...
I'm having trouble understanding your problem with Piper...
Are you saying Christians shouldn't drink alcohol??Doesn't Paul tell Timothy or someone to drink? 1 Timothy 5:23I did not listen to the video because it doesn't show up, but if he said "we're wrong to make alcohol evil and to make it not a big deal", then I 100% agree.
It's neither good nor bad.
I think the statements made by the video are valid. When I could have alcohol my rule was that if I wanted a single or two drinks it was okay...if I NEEDED a drink let it be coffee.
Getting drunk is prohibited in the Bible but wine is just part of the 1st century culture of the Bible. Water was not "safe" to drink on its own. Wine has been used in the Church all the way up (even as part of the salary received by ministers) until recently before grape juice is used. This video is necessary only after the Prohibition.
I would say that most of the people that I know who drink drink to get drunk, they drink to "hook up", or they drink to help get rid of their stress. That is drinking for all of the wrong reasons. Not to mention that it is sinful to get drunk no matter what the motive. It is wrong.
There are also different drinks for different reasons. Alcohol isn't
straightforward BAD, but some alcoholic beverages are harder than
others. Some alcoholic beverages are designed for getting drunk.
On the flip side, there are alcoholic beverages that are hardly alcoholic at all and more of a casual beverage. This was the type of wine that was commonly drunk (past participle of drink) in the Old Testament. It was full of antioxidants and was healthier to drink than just water. It was not a hard beverage. Could you drink yourself drunk with it? You'd have to drink an awful lot of it! Not that's not saying that they didn't drink stronger drinks in the Bible either. But getting drunk is clearly sinful.
What I'd like to see on Revelife.com is what makes drunkenness so sinful. We here all the time that drinking is wrong. Instead of arguing the point of whether it is wrong or not we should focus on what the differences are in what makes drinking that is wrong and drinking that isn't wrong. There is certainly a lot of responsibility when it comes to drinking.
Is drinking a sin? It can be. That's why we should be able to understand when it is wrong and be aware of whether or not we are living in sin or not.
My personal conviction is to not drink at all. I had one beer in my life. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. People can socialize and fellowship around food and beverages other than alcohol. I don't think alcohol is necessary and American culture certainly isn't better because of alcohol. I guess I just see a lot more negative that positive from alcohol. But that's just my perspective.
I personally feel that any line-drawing is ridiculous. It's always necessary to look at the situation at hand in order to determine if what was done was justified or if it was "evil." For example, we say murder is evil, but a common exception is self-defense (and some try to circumvent the issue here by calling that "killing" instead of "murder," but these are just meaningless semantics). There's the common philosophical query, "Is it okay to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family?" The fact is that you really can't judge a situation correctly until you have all the facts. But we've become so good at judging with very little information that we no longer see anything wrong with doing it anymore.
@xhalesx - Totally agreed. I think it's different for every person. Some people just couldn't handle a single drink because it would lead to many, many more. Others can take a single drink and be contentedly done for the evening. I know just for me, I'll have one glass of wine and then I don't want anymore. We're all wired differently, so I think an issue like this should be handled on a case-by-case basis as far as whether drinking is "right" or not.
@twoBex - I agree.