Sunday, 09 January 2011
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When Does "Christian Opinion" Become Hate?
By Matthew at Jesus Needs New PR
A Christian anti-gay group in Chicago called Americans For Truth about Homosexuality has been added to several “Hate Group” watch lists.
They do seem hateful. And completely misinformed. And tragically, full of fear…
In the past, I’ve known Christians like the ones being talked about in the video.
So I have a few questions…
How do you define a “hate group”?
Would you include AFTAH in that category?
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About the Author
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- From: JesusNeedsNewPR
- Name: Matthew Paul Turner
- About Me: Matthew Paul Turner is the author of ten books and a contributor to several others. He is also the former editor of CCM, a popular Christian music magazine, and a past contributor to crosswalk.com.
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Comments (58)
Why am I not surprised about whom the author of this one is?
When it is done on a sign, like this.
http://magistertom.xanga.com/717393638/what-do-you-look-like/AFTAH has never murdered, robbed, or vandalized the property of the gay community. They're not a hate group. They are fully 100% entitled to promote their agenda as long as it is done peacefully and legally.
Even if I do not agree with Christians who go out and form protests (which I don't), that doesn't justify me slandering the AFTAH by calling them a hate group.
I mean, honestly, the gays were more "angry and hateful" towards the Christians in this video than the Christians sounded towards the gays.
Someone should sue them for libel.
in general, i define a hate group as a group who advocates for discrimination and inequality.
the question is: IS this "Christian opinion"? last i checked, your god said all sin was equally bad. i'm not sure a group that chooses to single out one sin and demonize those particular sinners are sending a Christian message. i think they're just homophobes and bigots. maybe Christianity should do a better job of distancing itself from such groups. but i just don't see that happening.
@TravelingStranger@xanga - true, but i can understand their hatred far more. they're the group frequently harassed and physically harmed on a regular basis. while i'm not gay, i've been on the receiving end of Bible-supported hatred for other reasons... physical, emotional, etc. i would argue that such hatred is warranted if there is a true sense of being threatened.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Sure. Neither side is innocent though. I've read reports (which do not get as broadly publicized, ironically) of gay activist groups who have actually tied up and urinated on Christians who were merely meeting for prayer on public street corners.
My point is that especially now-a-days we have to be careful in labeling a group as "hate speech groups" because with the laws that are being passed that can give way to imprisoning people who are only exercising their freedom of speech.
They're not a hate group, in fact, they oppose violence. But just because they (and I) believe homosexuality to be a sin, and because they (and even I) wouldn't want a gay man frisking me at the air-port any more than I would want a woman to frisk me does not make us hateful.
My questions: Why the "undercover" cameras? Why did this television station make it look like people were unwelcome, that the media was unable to enter the school where they have their meetings? Why not get the full picture from AFTAH rather than two grad students posing as interested individuals? Why the second-hand information from them and the law student? Why not simply ask Mr. Barbera to allow them to enter one of their meetings?
This television station looks to be making AFTAH out to be something it isn't....
@MagisterTom@xanga - That happened at Syracuse! Go Orange! lol
@TravelingStranger@xanga -
"I've read reports (which do not get as
broadly publicized, ironically) of gay activist groups who have actually
tied up and urinated on Christians who were merely meeting for prayer
on public street corners. "
source? Christian groups have done the same thing in my area... but they were hanging outside of gay bars praying loudly and vocally for God to strike them down any minute.
"But just because they (and I) believe
homosexuality to be a sin, and because they (and even I) wouldn't want a
gay man frisking me at the air-port any more than I would want a woman
to frisk me does not make us hateful."
in my opinion, it does. if you're against homosexuality because it's a sin, such an intense aversion would only make sense if you applied it to other sinners as well. for example, you wouldn't want your bank account being managed by a bank employee who had ever stolen anything. or even better, you ideally shouldn't even want to be talking online with me (a horrible, non-Christian sinner).
if not, you're just a homophobe and a bigot (no offense). it's this glaringly obvious inequality you guys seem to be placing on homosexuality that just makes it seem like you're not interested in saving souls, but just persecuting anyone who does anything you don't agree with, don't understand, or that just plain grosses you out. and yeah... a group that does that is a hate group in my eyes.
if i treated Christians the way i see Christians treat homosexuals, i'd go to jail for discrimination. why? because i don't have the Bible to conveniently hide behind.
I call bull on that guy saying he'd love his kid even if they were gay. From the "facts" that they are spewing it doesn't seem that way.
In any case, I'd consider this a hate group. I don't think it matters whether they are being violent or not, even though that would be even more despicable. The fact that they are spreading supposed "facts" that are complete bull is slander. They are completely misinformed about homosexuality and are slandering homosexuals for being who they are. They are certainly deeming homosexuals lower than themselves and such.
It's one thing to not agree with homosexuality because of one's religion. I can accept that, even though I'm Catholic and disagree with this stance. But there is a difference between disagreeing with it and spreading libel and made up, hurtful things about homosexuals. That is hatred and bigotry. And that pretty much seems like AFTAH.
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http://www.shoes4world.com/
They are a hate group, regardless if they are performing acts of volience or not on homosexuals. Jesus loved everyone no matter who they were. He invited the lowest of the low to have supper with Him. This group is the exact opposite.
The Southern Poverty (witch hunt) says that the United Daughters of the Confederacy is a hate group. LOL!
Let's see... Sounds like there is a lot of hate going from both ends... But that's okay... I can discriminate because they discriminate against me life style seem's to be working for all of you... So keep going.
It becomes hate when christians are motivated to block someone's ability to express themselves by having it declared illegal (gay marriage for the last almost 300 years in the US), block another person's right to express themselves spiritually (see Jerry Falwell backpack mail incident), target people of other faiths for harrassment (see Darla K Wynne incident) or seek to establish themselves as 'the chosen religion' of this or any other country (insisting upon trying to put their monuments of faith in public places while denying people of other faiths the same option).
For example, a couple of years ago when the Army finally decided to allow pentacles on their list of religious symbols to be placed on the grave markers of fallen soldiers, the first marker to bear the pentacle was vandalized by christian protesters.
That's christian hate.
@MisteyEyez3BrokenDreamz@xanga - How is the LGBT community discriminating against the Christian community? I'm a gay, agnostic graduate student; I spend my time doing research, hanging out with friends, and volunteering for a local Christian community college that runs a program at San Quentin State Prison.
I do not support any legislation restricting the rights of religious minorities to, say, marry outside their faith. And I do support legislation that protects religious minorities from hate crimes, whether those crimes come in the form of hate speech, vandalism (e.g., swasitkas on bathroom stalls), or violence.
On the other hand, the main support for anti-gay legislation comes from the Christian right. The Christan right supports eliminating and/or prohibiting the right of gay people to marry, workplace anti-discrimination laws that protect the jobs of LGBT workers, adoption laws for LGBT families, and so on.
Sure there are vocal individuals on both sides who say/do stupid things, but those anecdotes are far different from the large-scale, well-organized discrimination of the Church that affects every aspect of my life, from job security to the ability to have and raise a family.
@TravelingStranger@xanga - AFTAH is guilty of acts that are damaging to the gay community. For instance, AFTAH publicizes the works of Peter LaBarbera (president of AFTAH), Paul Cameron, and Scott Lively. By promoting their work, AFTAH is actively spreading the false claims that gay people are pedophiles, dangerous sex addicts, and even the ridiculous claim that gays are running the German Nazi Party. On a more serious note, LaBarbera condones the 2009 Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality Bill which mandates the death sentence for gay sex.
In the kindest interpretation of the situation, AFTAH is damaging the gay community by promoting harmful stereotypes. For instance, the misconception that gays are perverts obsessed with sex, has lead you to feel uncomfortable being frisked by a gay TSA agents. Compared to the laws of Uganda, this is a seemingly benign consequence. But let's not forget that AFTAH isn't appalled by the potential execution of gays...
Also, I do not believe your story that "gay activist groups ... have actually tied up and urinated on Christians." If you can't substantiate this claim, then you, too, are guilty for promoting an unfair stereotype that makes gays seem "dangerous."
We're not. I'm gay. I don't ogle or grope people, and I definitely don't pee on Christians. I spend a lot of time in the lab doing research, I go hiking on the weekends, and on Friday nights I volunteer with a college program at the local prison. (I teach pre-Algebra.) I'm nice and funny, not creepy or disgusting.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - It was the L.A. Times, if you want to go look for it, feel free. According to my memory of what the source said, the activity the Christians were engaging to was totally unrelated to the gays.
Again, the point is not to justify either side, but merely to point out that you can't classify one side as a hate group without doing it to the other side.
And no, the reason I don't want a gay frisking me is not because I think they're a sinner. It is the same reason I don't want a woman frisking me-- it's because of the sexual factor. Anyone who is attracted to my gender has no business frisking me (except my wife :D)
And.... yes.... I don't want a manager who has stolen money managing my bank account.... duh! lol
You're making an intellectual leap regarding me based on little background. You do not actually know my reasons for my comment nor my conduct relating to the homosexual community.
I might ask you, what have you done to help the gay community?
Have you ministered to them? Have you helped them get out of destroyed lives? You know, homosexuals are like everyone else, they have other problems that can destroy their lives.
I've counseled many who have gotten over drinking problems, anger problems, drug problems, and some who have even become sexually inactive again.
So to answer your accusation, no; I do not hate homosexuals. As most Christians do not hate homosexuals.
@jim_the_american@xanga - That is my point, if AFTAH is guilty of hate speech because of their
opinionsthat they promote, then so is the gay community, and many, many, hollywood movies which could be understood as promoting "hate" towards one group or another.
If someone takes an opinion and makes a logical leap in an unintended direction, that is not the fault of the person who was the source of that opinion.
It'd be very much like me trying to accuse the homosexuals in this video for causing the death of some Christians who got bombed if a homosexual ever decided to bomb their Church.
That's my whole point; don't try to blame things on them just because others go crazy with their ideas. There are people out there that are gay who are nice (like you said), and there are people out there who are not (like they say) because they're both human. ANd there are AFTAH-ians who are both nice and mean.
That is the fault of being human, not being gay or AFTAH, lol.
@TravelingStranger@xanga - They aren't "opinions"; they are lies. When AFTAH claims that gays are more likely to molest children, or that gays controlled the Nazi party and helped orchestrate the Holocaust, or that gays are mentally ill and abuse drugs and alcohol, they are lying. AFTAH and other hate groups propagate these lies because they bolster a stereotype that gays are gross, bad, and can't be trusted around children.
For years these harmful stereotypes of gays have been used to justify anti-gay legislation, e.g., the Briggs Initiative, a failed CA proposition that would have prohibited gays teachers from working in public schools. Proposition 8 is another example. In both cases, proponents of the anti-gay legislation relied on the stereotype that children are unsafe around gays.
Worse, by insisting that gays are evil, child-molesting Nazis, by calling gays "a radical enemy," by promoting criminalization of homosexuality, and by defending laws like the Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality Bill, groups like AFTAH bear some responsibility for inciting violence against gays.
There's nothing wrong with harboring a dislike for gays. That sounds like an opinion to me. But to actively spread misinformation and lies with the intent to portray a minority group as evil, dangerous, and worthy of punishment is hateful.
@TravelingStranger@xanga -
"Again, the point is not to justify either
side, but merely to point out that you can't classify one side as a hate
group without doing it to the other side. "
i don't see how you can argue that homosexuals wanting equal rights is inherently hateful.
and, it does seem like you're trying to justify. whereas, i'm not. being a moral relativist, i couldn't care less. but in the world of homosexuals vs. Religious Right, i find the latter to be far more hypocritical and hate-motivated, rather than simply reacting to abuse.
"I might ask you, what have you done to help the gay community?
Have
you ministered to them? Have you helped them get out of destroyed
lives? You know, homosexuals are like everyone else, they have other
problems that can destroy their lives. "
i volunteer at my local LGBT organization on a fairly regular basis, and i was an officer in my school's LGBTQ organization. and frankly, most of them have miserable, destroyed lives because of organizations like the AFTAH, and other Christian groups that preach hate, discrimination and the dehumanization of homosexuals.
@TravelingStranger@xanga - "I mean, honestly, the gays were more "angry and hateful" towards the Christians in this video than the Christians sounded towards the gays. "
"The gays," as you so respectfully call this group of protestors which surely included gay and straight individuals opposed to AFTAH, were hardly "hateful." They were certainly angry, and rightfully so. They have every right to protest a group like AFTAH, and they are at no fault for decrying the false claims made by AFTAH.
"Sure. Neither side is innocent though. I've read reports (which do not get as broadly publicized, ironically) of gay activist groups who have actually tied up and urinated on Christians who were merely meeting for prayer on public street corners. "
First of all, that's not ironic. Second of all, links to this specific incident please. Third... Duh. There have been isolated incidents of gay individuals (or straight supporters of gay rights) acting violently against anti-gay individuals. However, the gay community can not be generalized as violent. On the other hand, there are large numbers of religious groups that completely misunderstand and misrepresent gay individuals, a ridiculous number of which fight to withhold certain rights from gay individuals because of their personal views. To equate one with the other is like comparing violent minorities to the white supremacist movement in the south immediately after the civil war.
P.S. a google search yields no examples of Church groups being urinated on by gay activists.
"Again, the point is not to justify either side, but merely to point out that you can't classify one side as a hate group without doing it to the other side."
Um, yes you can. The protestors in this video were not a hate group, AFTAH is. That's not to say there never has been a gay hate group, but I have certainly never heard of one.
"And no, the reason I don't want a gay frisking me is not because I think they're a sinner. It is the same reason I don't want a woman frisking me-- it's because of the sexual factor. Anyone who is attracted to my gender has no business frisking me (except my wife :D) "
And what about a straight man who is aroused by the power he experiences when frisking you? What about a straight man who is aroused by the feel of denim, which you may be wearing? Personally, I'd rather not be frisked by *anyone*, but if I have to fly, and must be frisked (no scanners for me), I don't particularly care who is doing the frisking, so long as they do so respectfully and professionally. There's no need to sexualize something that is not sexual.
"and some who have even become sexually inactive again."
So you believe that it is somehow more difficult for gay individuals to remain sexually inactive than for their straight counterparts? Not fair.
"That is my point, if AFTAH is guilty of hate speech because of theiropinions
that they promote, then so is the gay community, and many, many, hollywood movies which could be understood as promoting "hate" towards one group or another."
There is a big different between *opinion* and *fiction.* "I think gays are icky," is an opinion. "Gays want to infest our blood supply with AIDS and are responsible for the holocaust," is a lie.
"It'd be very much like me trying to accuse the homosexuals in this video for causing the death of some Christians who got bombed if a homosexual ever decided to bomb their Church."
Except the protestors in this video did nothing but expose the lies of AFTAH to the public, trying to prevent their event from being successful to keep their lies from spreading. AFTAH was *intentionally spreading lies to achieve an agenda*. There is a very big difference between those two things.
The forces arrayed against Christianity are very successful in redefining Christianity to be a hateful, bigoted cult of people who hearken to times and values long gone.
The reality is the exact opposite.
There is no way to argue for the salvific and unifying virtues of Christianity if we must first accept the premise of this post:
That Christianity is a hate group.
Eh, the people that are leading these "hate groups" (which I find very much a hate group) are completely misinformed. They think they know what's right, what God wants, but they have nooooo Earthly idea. If they WERE informed, were educated, were decent human beings, they would realize God loves them regardless. That's the whole point of why God is who He is. THE WHOLE POINT. As a Christian who loves everyone (diff. sexuality, diff. race, diff. religion) all of the conservative-redneck-idiots who think that "God Hates Fags" needs a reality check & to go to church. Seriously. That's wrong on many, many levels. HOWEVER, we shouldn't worry about it now. There will always be someone against someone- it is Earth. I'm not saying that it's right, but it's inevitable. We should just let God take care of them & to trust He'll put them in their place. My advice to those who sport the "God Hates Fags" signs is to bite your tongue and go take a good look in the mirror because you're just as flawed as the next guy & to remember you have no right to judge. To breathe, yeah; freedom of speech, yeah; but you're incapable of understanding the true depth to God's love if you think God hates homosexuals. The end.
@Charlie - You shouldn't really objectify "Christianity" as a whole. I'm sure you'd be offended if someone objectified you for being a woman. Not every Christian is the same. To me, you're being just as close-minded as the "Christians" who believe they have the right to say God hates fags. I'm not upset or angry, but I think you should know that Christianity has faltered and it is different, but they're not all the same. People are paying close attention to the people who make the mistakes and not God who's doing it right. It is only humans who are carrying out His name. I'm very, very disappointed that one of the greatest things that have changed the world in the past is now this huge "hate group." I desperately wish people could wrap their heads around how Christians AREN'T all the same and that there's someone out there making a difference, even if you can't see it. I've met TONS of Christians who have called themselves just that, but act completely different to what a Christian REALLY is. I'm sorry you feel that way- you're not the only one- but don't lose hope. There's someone out there making a difference right now. God really is amazing.