Thursday, 21 October 2010
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Stop Hating on Agnostics!
"And he to me: 'This miserable way
is taken by the sorry souls of those
who lived without disgrace and without praise.
They now commingle with the coward angels,
the company of those who were not rebels
nor faithful to their God, but stood apart.
The heavens, that their beauty not be lessened,
have cast them out, nor will deep Hell receive them--
even the wicked cannot glory in them.'""'Those who are here can place no hope in death,
and their blind life is so abject that they
are envious of every other fate.
The world will let no fame of theirs endure;
both justice and compassion must disdain them;
let us not talk to them, but look and pass.'""After I had identified a few,
I saw and recognized the shade of him
who made, through cowardice, the great refusal.
At once I understood with certainty:
this company contained the cowardly,
hateful to God and to His enemies."Dante's Inferno, Canto III
These passages are from Dante's journey through the Ante-Inferno (just above the first circle of hell), the home of the "Virtuous Heathens." When I was reading this for my world literature class, I found myself in strong disagreement with Dante's views on those who chose not to side with God nor Lucifer. It's repeated by both Virgil and Dante that these angels are cowards for not making a choice.
I'm sorry, since when was choosing not to be involved in a war cowardly?
Choosing not to choose is a choice. What if you were forced to choose between murdering a man or a woman? Personally, I'd choose to do neither. I would choose to not pick a side, or which life to end, which would be bravery on my own part because I'm not giving in to the whims of someone calling all the shots.
I do understand that turning your back on God is a pretty big deal. But Lucifer, the bringer of light, did it. He had reason to. What if these angels, these neutrals, had good reason as well? Did anyone ever think of that? Perhaps they didn't want to be involved in war. Maybe they were peace-loving. And maybe, just maybe, they were brave enough to believe in themselves rather that siding with whoever they thought would win. Why did they have to make a choice that could easily end up in death? When is fighting better than peace? Someone disagrees with you, and now you want to fight them? What gives?
Since I'm not a religious person, the concept of faith is pretty much foreign to me. I understand that many people completely rely on God, and that's fine. I understand that many people don't believe in God, and that's fine too. What I don't understand is why people think agnostics, those who choose not to choose, are so horrible.
When I state that I'm an agnostic, I often hear the phrase, "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in something." Why must I do this? First of all, it's my own life, my own choices, and my own beliefs...please stop telling me what to do. Secondly, you just contradicted yourself. If you don't care what I believe in, why do you care that I admit that I don't know?
If the speaker of this response is religious, isn't a major part of religion acceptance? And if the speaker is an atheist, he or she is usually telling me that I don't have any guts. But, my guts are in my admittance that I'm unsure. I'd rather admit that I don't know something than pretend to go along with it. Choosing a side just to be on a side seems much more cowardly to me.
Then there are those who try to change me. One, that offends me. Two, if I haven't made one of your choices so far, what makes you think you'll say something to change my mind? Do you really think you'll have the magical answer to "cure" me of this affliction? Which is not an affliction at all, by the way. I'm a human being just like you. So much for equality, religious tolerance, and all that jazz.
I'm not saying that all religious people and atheists are complete assholes to people like me. I'm just reporting on what I've experienced - a lot. It saddens--and, admittedly, angers--me that I'm practically not allowed to choose to question the existence of a higher power. I know that technically I'm completely free to believe whatever I want--it's just the closed-mindedness of others that depresses me.
Yes, I think those who look down on agnostics are closed-minded. Am I closed-minded for being hurt that my beliefs, however unsure, are scoffed at? I don't think so. That, to me, would be like Nazis blaming Jews for being closed-minded and not supporting them in their decisions to persecute them.
People always say that persecution for one's beliefs is unfair, primitive, and ultimately useless. So why do I continue to be looked down upon for mine? I just don't understand.
Can you help me understand why many people don't like agnostics? What do you think of agnostics?
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Comments (47)
I'm agnostic too, and I get hostilities from both religious people [especially Christians] and atheists. One thinks I'm lazy, and the other thinks I'm crazy....
It will never end.
I've never been looked down upon (to my face) about being agnostic...but then again. I hardly talk about it. Just keep feeling what you feel. Looks like you're not going to let anybody change that. Good.
There will always be a divide amongst people over religion (and other things). It's sad, but that's the way it is... and in my opinion, will always be...
I can't help you understand why peeps don't like agnostics. Actually, you are certainly in a much better position when you just truthfully say there is not enough info to make a decision, than an atheist who says there is no God.
The step from being an agnostic and a believer is called Faith. Nothing else but simple Faith. Many, many, people have said to God, I do not know if You are out there or not, but if You are, I want to know You.
God knows the heart where the rest of us just see the shell. Try it. Couldn't hurt and you just might find God.
i definitely agree. while i am decidedly atheistic when it comes to particular gods, i'm agnostic in general because the very definition of faith excludes knowledge. if i cannot know something with the same amount of clarity as i know my name, i'm not interested in dedicating my life to it.
It's stupid how you are looked down on for being agnostic. I can't really understand why people don't like agnostics, but I guess it's the aversion towards people simply not making a choice, and not choosing an extreme. But I think that being agnostic is as real a choice as any, and it's really stupid how people choose to force their beliefs down your throat.
Though I don't agree with agnosticism, I do accept that you have your own views, and that you have a right to express your views and hold it. But I also believe that sometimes we don't have the luxury of simply choosing not to choose (in regards to the Dante's Inferno excerpt)
My first thought when I read the title of this weblog entry was, "Oh my goodness. Stop hating on EVERYONE!" (It's no different to hate someone because they're agnostic than because are atheists, buddhists, protestant, Christian, whatever. Also, if religious people show hostility towards non-religious people, isn't that inherently going against the core values of most religions themselves?Christian tenet of unconditional love, anyone?...)
In any case, I think it's simply disrespectful.
I have no idea why anyone would dislike agnostics just for being, well, agnostics. Maybe they just want you to have a side so they can be either "with you or against you"?...
I don't think anything of agnostics... I've been on many sides (I grew up in a super religious environment, I've been devout Catholic, considered becoming a nun, but have also been an atheist, agnostic, etc) and frankly I don't care about what anyone believes in. I know of atheists who put Christians to shame. Telling me that you believe what the Bible says, or the Qu'ran, or that you don't believe in anything, or that you don't even know WHAT to believe in ... doesn't make me think any higher or lower than you than the color of the shirt you are wearing. A person's heart and actions are what matters in the end, not the specifics.
If people are looking down upon you for something like that then they need to get a life.
I kind of think agnosticism is a cop-out. Actually I'm torn about it. I strongly believe in God, but I'm not a Christian. I don't think the evidence is there for Christianity. But there are so many religions, how can you seriously say none of them ring true for you? Have you even looked? Done any reading, outside the standard Abrahamic religions that are shoved down our throats on a regular basis? I think for the agnostic who has done the research, or is in the process of researching, is making a valid statement. But for the person who says they're agnostic and haven't done (nor do they intend to, I understand people get busy) any research, any soul searching, yeah, that's lazy. But I wouldn't tell an agnostic that unless, like in your case, they ask what I think. I would still gently encourage them to read about religion and talk to various religious people though.
[When I state that I'm an agnostic, I often hear the phrase, "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in something." Why must I do this? First of all, it's my own life, my own choices, and my own beliefs...please stop telling me what to do.]
Niiiccceeee.
@Biblerapture@xanga - there is also not enough to prove God's existence.
"Hating" is a natural reaction. Groups of people tend to negatively respond to those that threaten their beliefs (and this does not only happen with religious groups such as Christianity). Even the most mundane groups, such as juniors and seniors in high school. This is a normal trend and will most likely never stop.
The best we can ask for is for them to recognize their biases (as well as our own) and accept others for who they are. We cannot point fingers and make a general statement that Christians hate on agnostics (or even atheist). We can tell them their being bias though.
I don't mind agnostics inherently. Although ultimately I disagree with them, I can respect some of the positions some of them take.
The OP would be better w/o the first part imo (i.e., if it started with "Since I'm not a religious person...").
God gave people a choice to believe or not to believe. It is freewill that He gave us and we are not robots!
Hating people does no one any good. Christians are told to love and pray for their enemies. Hate does not enourage people toward Jesus. If one claims to be a "Christian" what difference is it making in your life?
I have friends who reject Jesus and live their lives they way they want to without some "book" they don't believe in telling them how to live. It is their choice. I don't agree but it is their choice. Some have told me they don't want to be "fake" like others in how they see other's live.
I also make a choice to encourage people toward Jesus. I want good things for them like I have found. Yet, people have the right to reject Jesus. Yes, it makes me sad but it is their choice. Christians may dislike/hate choices others make but not the people.
If Christains hate people then what makes them different than any other? Is what they believe lived out in their lives?
It's what you believe, and it's no one else's right to comment on it. There's nothing wrong with having your own faith, some people just can't accept another point of view.
@Covergirl_For_Sanity_Fair@xanga - I can tell you why I'm an agnostic rather than religious or atheist. Personally, I believe that it is impossible, just about by definition, to prove whether God exists. He does not exist in the physical realm, but in the spiritual. And even if God exists, the idea is that he's inscrutable. But if he's inscrutable, then how can any religion have it right about him? Personally, I feel that all religions are probably way off about God if he exists because we're told that we can't understand God.
However, I've been thinking about looking into Buddhism. That religion looks interesting, and possibly right up my alley. No need to put my faith into a higher power that I can't be sure exists.
@Liquid_Pain_523@xanga - I believe that all religions (well not all, but the ones that promote being a good person and things like that) are a valid path to God, and that there isn't only one correct religion.
I like and minister to people in general. So, there is no special feeling against someone who is agnostic simply because they are agnostic. If we discuss matters of faith and belief, then I will share the Law and Gospel with him/her. If she/he rejects that, I am saddened, but that is about all.
I don't see anything wrong with Agnostics. I didn't know people had an issue with them, actually. I always see Atheists going back and forth with religious people more than anything else.
Being agnostic doesn't make you a coward or anything like that. With me, I don't take on any religion. I'm not a religious person. I'm not sure whether I believe that there is a God. I know that I know something, but I don't know what it is that I believe for sure. So I suppose I might fit under the Agnostic thing.
I don't have to have a religion to feel good about things. I can't really believe that there isn't something after death at all, but I can't lead myself to agree with the Bible. I can't bring myself to agree with what most Christians seem to think about the religion or their God.
The God that I do think is possible to exist, isn't one that any religion particularly takes to.
Since I"m an agnostic atheist, does that mean all three groups don't like me?
Lovelovelove this post! My mother doesn't understand my being agnostic. She thinks that it is necessary to have faith in a higher power, and that I can't just "not believe". I told her that I'm unsure that there's even a higher power but she still tries to make me become a Buddhist or something. I'm fine without religion, thank you. I totally understand what you're going through!
First, I love Dante's Inferno. I read it in twelfth grade and really enjoyed it. Many of his decisions (to place certain groups in Hell) were odd and horrible to me, too, but I love it as a work of literature.
The "I don't care what you believe in, just believe in something" line confuses me, too. A person can have so many other beliefs besides religious beliefs. Being an agnostic (or an atheist for that matter) doesn't mean we don't believe in anything.
All the best.
again, I dont know why this even needs to be a topic of discussion.
the people who DO believe in god, dont know that he is real. there is no proof that any of it is real.
"turning your back on god" isnt a big deal because "he" may not be anything.
and please dont use the bible as a reference.
for all anyone knows, we are something unexplainable, and however we got here was NEVER meant to be discovered. its probably so beyond any of us that it can't even be put into words! so the bible and everything else could be completely false and just created by man many many MANY years ago.
anything is as true as anything else could be.
none of us are going to know the truth until we ourselves die
and maybe not even then.
we probably die, have 7 seconds of brain activity before we die, and THAT is your whole religion.
that is everything that your life is in the end. you dont go to heaven, you dont go to hell, you go to wherever your mind takes you those last 7 seconds of brain activity.
I hear SO MANY stories of what is wrong and what is right in life. some christians who think they are the REAL christians say one thing and then other christians who ALSO think they are the real christians says something completely different but they are both just as stubborn and hard headed and the other~ yet one christian says we are created to worship god and then the other christian says "no we arent put on this earth to worship god. we arent robots he wants us to live how we want, be happy, and do as we please" one group of christians says being gay is a sin, and then another group says absolutely not! because we are all gods children, and we are all different, and regardless he loves us all.
two completely different things, same god, same faith.
how can both of those christians be right?
isnt that enough to say that everything you believe in and worship to is nothing?
shouldnt that be enough to just make you want to live out your life happily without the burden of a religion, and seperation, and unnecessary rules?!?!
it's obvious whats wrong or right, or good and bad.
and you shouldnt only be doing whats right just because you feel that a god will punish you in the end of it all.
you are just living in fear, and as sad as it is, that is exactly what religion has become.
I think agnostic and athiest is the way to be.
and im going to be just as hard headed and stubborn as every christian is and say "im sorry, I just don't agree with your ways, but it is your choice."
because I DONT agree with the christian faith for the most part, but again, it IS your choice.
and yes, I feel very strongly about this issue because in my whole life, almost every christian I have encountered has given that religion an AWFUL name, and everyday they have driven me further and further away from everything they believe in.
ironic isnt it?
dont get me wrong, im sure there is something great out there.
energy, the universe, the galaxy! endless possibilites as to why we could be here or how we got here.
I am not narrowing down my answers for life to a man in the sky who "created us in his image" and speaks about peace even though almost every follower of his religion is filled with hate for anything BUT him.
it's nonsense.
@Covergirl_For_Sanity_Fair@xanga -
"But there are so many religions, how can you seriously say none of them ring true for you? Have you even looked?"Easily. The idea of a "higher power" is utterly ridiculous to me. And yes, I have looked. I'm not agnostic, though, I'm an atheist. I've studied a lot of religions (not just the major ones) and I fundamentally disagree with all of them.
I was one before I went full atheist. People never had any issues with that. People around me don't care that I'm an atheist too. Like wise that I don't care if others do or don't go to church. Just don't ring my doorbell at 7am on a Saturday( after drinking on Friday) and you're okay with me.
You are brilliant. Thank...something, someone, thank YOU for wording these ideas so brilliantly.
i feel like a lot of these comments are saying how awful christians are to agnostics... but i am a christian and dated an agnostic for four years. he was weak. when i broke up with him he said "i'll belive in god for you." that says to me some of you (not all) might be doing it because you just don't know what to believe. and furthermore..i feel some of these commenters are attacking christianity like they say christians attack agnostics. isn't that hypocritical?
personally, i could give a rip what anyone believes. I believe in God and I know he is real. Some people don't understand that and never will.
But believe in nothing :) its your life therefore your choice!
I'm an atheist and I often hear, "I don't care what you believe, just believe in something." I mostly try to avoid the topic of religion altogether because A. I don't believe that it is anyone's business but my own what I believe (usually when they are asking it's because they are religious), B. It's controversial, C. It makes people look down on me when they find out how I feel about it and D. Then I usually have to listen to a lecture about Christianity. I am not ashamed of my religious non-beliefs, but I find it easier in day to day life to not bother flaunting them.
I went to church twice a week for 17 years, and researched several other religions in depth in the process. You aren't going to tell me something I don't already know.All of that being said, I understand 100% why someone would be agnostic, and I myself was for a long time (transition period from the belief system I was raised in to what I discovered I truly believed about the world around me).I also think it must be a strong comfort to be able to believe in "unconditional love" from a higher power, and to have the reality that death is finite be taken from your sphere of understanding.Does that mean that I can personally bring myself to believe in it? No.As someone who definitively does not believe in a God, it makes me a little sad that other atheists treat you this way or call you a "coward" for not being an atheist as well. It is not cowardly to admit you do not know. Not to mention, being the minority themselves, one would hope they would have mutual compassion and respect for a similar minority.