Saturday, 14 August 2010
-
The Arguments Against Women as Pastors
In the past week or so, Revelife posted a blog entry about women pastors. I decided that, instead of commenting, I was just going to write my own blog entry on the subject -- although I wonder what view my readers think I am going to take. They won't have to wait very long.I grew up in the Worldwide Church of God; I have attended an Evangelical Free church, a Southern Baptist church, and a National Baptist Church. As far as I know, each of those denominations do not allow women to serve as head pastor of a church.
And I disagree with all of them on this subject. I do not object to women serving as head pastor of a church. The rest of this blog entry will be spent discussing the two most common arguments against women serving as pastor.
Argument #1
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. "
1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV)The argument is basically that this verse says that women should not rule over men. At first glance, that is exactly what it says, but, in matters of theology, we should not take what the first glance says. The word for "Authority" that is used in this verse has a particular meaning. For those of you who pay attention to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, the word for authority is G831. It has 4 meanings.
- one who with his own hands kills another or himself
- one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
- an absolute master
- to govern, exercise dominion over one
The first meaning has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion; the next two meanings talk about a person ruling with an iron fist -- a Church Dictator of sorts. The last meaning is the only one of the four that would lend agreement with the argument against women. So, out of four meanings, only one of them would be against women serving. Two of them are against church dictators. So, when we decide the meaning of the word, do we go with meanings 2 and 3, or only 4? which is more likely? The odds would say meanings 2 and 3. But let's continue on and see if argument number 2 might shed light on this matter.
Argument #2
"the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."
1 Corinthians 14:34 (ESV)
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."
1 Timothy 2:12 (ESV)The argument here is that these verses say that women should remain quiet. It is difficult to be the pastor of a church if you are silent. So therefore women can't be pastors.
Does the verse really say that women should be silent? If they are not pastors, what is a proper role for women?
"but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven."
1 Corinthians 11:5If women can pray or give prophecy, how does she do this while keeping silent? I can hear one objection -- maybe she does this at home, and her husband brings the prophecy to the church and delivers it for her. Well, what or where is the proper place for prophecy?
In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul speaks in several verses about prophecy being a way to lift up the church, to edify and support the people. I maintain that this means the prophecy was delivered in a church service. Also, Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:5 says that a wife should do so with her head covered. If she was not in a public place, how would anyone know? You only need to worry about how you look when someone will be watching you.
So, if women are giving prophecy, then she is not remaining silent; if she is not remaining silent, then what does the verses above mean when it says that women should be silent? I think the answer, is in 1 Timothy 2:12, the verse we started in.
The final word of 2:12, is the word silence. It is Greek word 2271 in Strong's. Do you know what it means? It is the description of one who stays at home doing his own work and does not meddle in the lives of others.
Wow, that is quite different than remaining mute or quiet, isn't it? Paul is not saying that women cannot speak, but that they should not meddle in the lives of others. I think that is advice we can all accept, male or female; we should not meddle in the lives of others.
So, let's see if I can't sum this one. Argument #1 said that said women should not usurp authority over men. I think it is safe to say that Paul was talking about a church dictator -- someone who just goes in and acts on his own authority and does whatever he wants. It is, from personal experience, a sin that more men get into than women. Sorry guys, but it tends to be more true than not, doesn't it?
Argument #2 died a painful death when we discovered it has more to do with meddling than it does about being silent. Remember, women cannot give prophecy if they are not able to talk. I didn't mention it before, but remember the verse from Joel in which God says that he will pour out His spirit in the end times, and our sons and daughters will give prophecy. Once again, hard to fulfill if the women are quiet.
So Who Should Be A Pastor?
Now, the above was my defense of women as Pastors, but I want to get into something here. This section may actually get me into more trouble than the above.Personality types: I am not saying this is true of all people.
In my experience, a lot of the women that I have met -- not all, but a lot of them -- have tended to be the loving and nurturing type. They are the type that want to kiss the nicks and scrapes of life and make a person feel better. This is a good quality to have in a mother but a rotten one to have in a Pastor if you sacrifice doctrine to avoid hurting feelings.
Men tend to be the opposite; they tend to want to push you toward a higher goal -- to make you work hard, to toughen you up. They put feelings aside in order to act tough, which may be a good quality sometimes in a father but a rotten one in a Pastor if you run over the feelings of others in order to protect doctrine.
So, if Women tend to be soft, and Men tend to be tough, who is suited to be a Pastor?
Both. No one can be an island. I think a lot of churches would be better off if they hired the Pastor as a husband and wife team. I am not saying that both should preach, but I think both should work together. They can temper each other and support each other during the rough years. In some cases, the husband might be the better preacher, but the wife can still do something like playing the piano, leading worship, running various outreaches and so forth. I think a Husband and Wife team is the best option for churches and certainly is an option that should be looked at more often.
Do you think that women should be allowed as pastors considering the scriptural references above? What do you think about husband and wife leadership teams instead of just one single pastor?
Related Posts
Post a Comment
- Back to revelife's Revelife Site!
- Note: your comment will appear in revelife's local time zone: GMT -05:00 (Eastern Standard - US, Canada)
About the Author
-
- From: ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga
- Name: ProudToBeAChristianFruitc
- About Me: The name for this site was taken from a conversation where someone told me that all christians were crazy and were fruitcakes. I figured if he is correct then I am proud to be a christian fruitcake.
-
True
Stats: This Week All Time Posts: 0 24 Views: 0 17099 Comments: 0 540 View all posts by ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga
Comments (55)
My denomination, the Assemblies of God, has female pastors and missionaries. I recommend a fantastic book by a Greek scholar called God's Women Then and Now that explores what the Bible says about women in the original text and the ways it's often been mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood, as well as providing extensive and exhaustive possibilities for original meaning. While I don't believe women in ministry is a salvation issue, I do believe God uses women in mighty ways, and I have seen women minister through the anointing and power of God. Thanks for bringing up the topic.
I received God's call to be involved in missions work a long time ago, and I am excited to see what He has planned for me.
I am in agreement! Good post!
Props.
I don't agree with your opinion on head of household. The woman should'nt be absolute master of the church. Men need to understand that, as Jesus is above us he still washed our feet. He served us, so as it should be for the men and women in comparison.
AS FOR WOMEN PREACHERS I BELIEVE IN THAT
WOMEN PREACHERS
How do ya explain the fact that God does use women to preach the truth?. No man will speak highly of Jesus and not be of God. 1Co:12:3: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Well there are many woman preachers who are speaking highly of Christ. I believe god can use who he wants, when he wants. If you here truth comeing out of a woman preacher she just might not be a woman in gods eyes, for when you are baptized by the spirit we are one. Ga:3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Yes Paul say's that man is head of household, but just maybe the Corinthian people have not been baptized in the spirit yet. Then again are the women preachers considering themselves as the head of there household?
@Shaggy808@xanga - I am sorry, I am not sure, that I understand what you are saying. Could you please explain again?
I like your reasoning. I disagree with using a single man's writing as the go-to for all church policies, but this clarifies something I feel is important using scripture that I can use for discussions with people that do use Paul's writing all the time.
Both. No one can be an island. I think a lot of churches would be better off if they hired the Pastor as a husband and wife team. I am not saying that both should preach, but I think both should work together. They can temper each other and support each other during the rough years. In some cases, the husband might be the better preacher, but the wife can still do something like playing the piano, leading worship, running various outreaches and so forth. I think a Husband and Wife team is the best option for churches and certainly is an option that should be looked at more often.
This is exactly what I wish my church did. I think it's very important that a man is the senior pastor, but there are so many things in the Bible for women to know (how to be a godly wife, mother, homemaker, etc) that I think the pastor's wife would do an excellent job of discussing...although I suppose that's what women's ministries are for. Over all I feel as if a woman being a pastor would be kind of destroy the whole roles of the family...men are the providers, women are the homemakers, etc. But that's just my opinion :)
@CecilliaMarie@xanga - Over all I feel as if a woman being a pastor
would be kind of destroy the whole roles of the family...men are the
providers, women are the homemakers, etc.
If you look at Proverbs 31, you see a woman that is planting, and growing things. she is making clothing and selling them. From the looks of it, she is providing for her household. I see no difference in a woman that plants fruit and sells it, and a woman who is paid to minister. They are both using the gifts and talents that God gave them.
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - I see what you're saying, but being a pastor is such a huge leadership role and the sermons are directed at both women and men. Personally from seeing things within my own church, I don't think men would respect or listen to a female pastor as much as they would to a male pastor, but again I could be completely wrong. My own personal feelings and thoughts are that women should be supporting their husbands by doing other things within the church (leading worship, etc) and not taking that leadership role away from them.
I don't have scripture to back me up, but it seems to me (and I am a very intuitive, touchy feely type sensitive guy) It seems to me that the scriptures above don't hold too much water in this culture. What "impression" I get (once again, intuitive type here -- my woman boss nailed me every time I could not quantify my intuition -- when I sense something is wrong, it almost always is, I just can't find it just yet -- she says dig deeper and bring it up if I don't find proof, but don't pull the fire alarm either, because I am overly sensitive -- then she had to spend the rest of the week getting me to believe she didn't hate me LOL) it seems that there is this "image" of man and woman, husband and wife, that is a symbol of Christ and His bride -- us (including me, um, I'm a bride?). It seems like there are so many patterns in nature that echo this -- man having dominion over animal, light driving away darkness. I am making no judgement calls here nor am I even saying I agree, however, it seems like once again we might run into that image of Christ being the head of the church, God the Father over God the Son, God the Son over the church, husband over wife. I don't want to sound sexist because I'm the world's biggest feminist that is not a female, I think. In fact, I might be joining a church that did a huge amount of praying and research over having a woman preacher. I've gone to churches with woman preachers. And this church, boy howdee for a "woman preacher" she will lay you bare and flat on your face. Then, allegorically speaking, she might help you up and put a bandaid on it and send you on your way with a cookie, but not before she makes sure you understand what the Bible is saying here.
I'm practical, I take a "last one standing in the Sahara" approach -- If my plane goes down in the desert and we're going to die of dehydration in a couple of days, of course I'll listen to the female preacher tell me how to get right with God. Then, in that arid desert where there is no water, the "woman preacher" can "baptize" me with sand, just so I can in some way embody the image of Christ and His death and resurrection in the best way I can with what I have available.
I challenge the men to do better than some of the "woman preachers" I have heard. Since they are so nurturing, they get very protective of their church. They conduct themselves in a way that won't put their "children" in harm's way. They tend to be lionesses. If you want to see where a woman's place is, just watch a National Geographic special about lions, er, lionesses. I think there is room in the pulpit for these fierce mammas who will send you to bed without supper, so to speak, if you sass them; but will come after you hard if you mess with their babies -- whether those babies are their own offspring or their congregation.
I might be joining her church, and I would think long and hard before starting something with any of the other parishoners. This woman has carried life within her, and she has gone without for her children. This woman has *given birth* which pretty much is reason enough for me to shut up when any male/female arguments come up, as I can only say I had a wisdom tooth out once, and that was under anesthesia with lots of pain meds for the next few weeks. Males just go away, and I don't have a high view of men, since most of them abandoned me. Women don't.
P.S. besides, who does the Bible say fed Jesus and supported Him? Women. Also, who was there at the cross when He died? Women -- not the apostles, who had scattered. Who did the resurrected Savior first reveal Himself to? A woman, and not just any woman, but Mary Magdalene, who He freed from seven demons, who followed him, who was *at the cross* when He died (where were Peter and John and all the others?) and who, even though she was devastated that things did not go at all like she thought -- I get the impression she might have been severely let down -- yet she still went to take care of his body, to annoint it this one last time, without trying to sort things out.
If Jesus first appeared to a woman, then those women can preach to me any day.
I've been in a couple of churches now that have husband and wife pastors, as well as husband and wife worship leaders, and I think it's awesome!
by William Webb.
Appreciate your research and I'll definitely look into it by reading 1 Corinthians as a whole to make sure I see the entire context. I don't know why Paul would contradict himself only paragraphs later. I mean, he wasn't stupid. And if it is the Word of God, then certainly God does not contradict himself. It confuses me also when in Titus Paul gives guidelines for an elder or overseer or pastor and he says "husband of one wife" and other things that only describe a man. It would just be hard to say he's including women there when its male specific. But again, good to study the word more and I will do that :)
@abowman27614@xanga - Could you eplain what you mean when you say that you don't know why Paul would contradict himself a few paragraphs later? I thought I had answered everything.
This post was kinda long to begin with, so I started with what I thought were the two main objections. I am planning on writing another post to cover Titus. So stay tuned, and with any luck, Revlife will post that one as well.
Other than the two that I covered in this post, and Titus, do you know of any other objections to women pastors that I should cover?
According to one of my seminary profs, Ben Witherington, the phrase "do not" (as in "I do not permit"), should be translated "I am not currently permitting." He says that it's usage always indicates a present tense, rather than a hard and fast rule. In addition, as was mentioned, Paul obviously allows women to speak and prophesy in other writings, so obviously this was not a hard and fast rule for all time.
While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure your arguments are sound. You said that Paul was speaking of women not being 'church dictators.' I don't really think that was the problem that was in mind. It was more likely a matter of women, who were not educated in that culture, taking liberties to teach things they were not at that time qualified to teach. Women often taught in pagan religions, and many new converts to Christianity probably assumed they were qualified to teach, despite the fact that they were not familiar with Jewish scriptures.
It's also important to note that you can't just take a concordance, look at multiple definitions of a word, and pick the one that best supports your position. Context is everything. For that reason, I encourage people who are not well versed in Greek and Hebrew not to form arguments based on Greek and Hebrew word meanings, unless they are quoting someone who is. Looking up words can be useful for personal study, but when people start to form arguments based on word meanings of a language they don't understand, things can get distorted very quickly.
@Theophilus166@xanga - Great points. I have also heard what you said first, about the tense thing.
Women tend to speak with their feelings, while men tend to speak with waht they know. I'm not saying that feelings are bad. But you can't base your relationship with God on feelings alone. I'm also not saying that women aren't able to gain knowledge on what they speak about, but no matter what women tend to go back to their feelings. Women are also softies when it comes to "hurting people's feelings." I know I don't like to tell someone that they are doing something wrong. But, as Christians it's part of our calling. If a fellow Christian is living in sin and they don't want to give it up then it's something that we as their brothers and sisters in Christ to help them deal with their sin. I like my pastor because he's not afraid to tell us what's right and wrong. He doesn't tell us what we want to hear. He tells us what we need to hear.
THANK YOU.
In 2:12 the word "silent" is the same word as in 1 Corinthians 14. How do we know what "silent" means? Um it says she's not permitted to speak. That pretty much throws out the argument that "silent" means something other than not being permitted to speak.
I was in primarily Baptist type churches all of my life. Then we joined a Friends Evangelical Church. I found out that a couple of women were Elders. That was sure new to me. It worked our OK in practice. My wife does not think a woman should be a pastor of a church. I have friend who is a seminary NT Greek professor. He thinks much of the language was cultural for the time. I don't know.
I think it would be best for women to minister to women and men to minister to men. That way everyone gets their needs met by someone who "gets it."
@abowman27614@xanga - Actually, it is not the same word. the word for Silent in 1 Corinthians 14:34 is transliterated as sigao. In strong's concordance it is G4601. Strong's concordance has two meanings of the word.
1. to keep silence, hold one's peace
2. to be kept in silences, to be concealed.
If, you read the context of 1 Corinthians 14, Paul is talking about disruptions, and chaos in the church services there, so he spends some verses, telling them how to do things in an orderly manner. As part of that, he encourages women, to hold their peace. So many people were talking and adding to the din, that Paul wants the women to set an example and not add to everything else going on.
Now, as for 1 timothy 2:12, the word used there, is transliterated hesychia. It is Strong's concordance word G2271. As you can see, it is not the same word as the sigao from the above verse. I talked about the meaning of 2:12 in the original post. It does not refer to silence, as much as a life that does not meddle in the lives of others. This seems to partner, with the not adding to the din of voices, and keeping your peace. Not everyone needs to speak, and I think it might be nice, to have a minister who knows how to hold his or her tongue.
@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga - "the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."
1 Corinthians 14:34 (ESV)
It says she's not permitted to speak.
He also appeals to the Law, his authority. Is it a Law for the corinthians only? See what I'm saying?
Good post. The Bible also mentions a lot of women who were prophets and spiritual leaders. Men and women both spoke in tongues in Acts when the Spirit came upon them.
Acts 21:8: Philip the evangelist had four unmarried daughters who were prophets.
Philippians 4:2: Paul refers to two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as coworkers who were active evangelicals, spreading the gospel.
Romans 16:1: Paul refers to Phoebe as a minister (diakonos) of the church at Cenchrea. Some translations say deaconess; others try to obscure her position by mistranslating it as "servant" or "helper".
Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague."
Just a few examples. :)
God can use anyone He wants in any way He chooses.
I am a baptist pastor's child, was raised in a christian school and went to a christian college. Over the past 28 years I have heard hundreds, maybe a thousand sermons. The only pastor that really got through to me was Joyce Meyer. She preaches the word of God! I have never learned so much from any other pastor. I have never been able to apply so much of it to my life. Her sermons have touched my life in a way no other pastor, male or female has. Are you really going to tell me that her work is null and void because she is a woman??? Really?
Because of her, I have turned back to God. For years I hated so much of Christianity because I saw all of the bad that went on under the facade of that name. I had a male youth pastor who was the real deal, out of so many men. I turned away from it all, but his lessons were always there. Then Joyce, a woman, spoke the truth and I heard it again...in my heart. I have no arguments beyond the fact that God used her to reach me. I think God can use both. He used my youth pastor and years later, her ministry.
Besides, Pastors are not rulers. They are shepherds... they are to lead their flock. I don't consider that ruling over anything.