I've never heard of Religious Freedom Day, but apparently, it exists (maybe it's everyday in the US...). Nonetheless, according to this
article, the Florida "Collier County School Board allowed World Changers to distribute free Bibles to students during off-school hours on Religious Freedom Day,
but now the school officials claim that Bibles do not provide any educational benefit to the students and the distribution should stop."
Basically, the World Changers (who appear to be Christian) are now barred from handing out bibles. That seems...to violate the first amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
First things first, if this were a private school, it wouldn't be an issue. The whole freedom of religion thing applies to government run organizations, and private schools don't have to follow the rules. But this is a public school (you can't have an official prayer in it), so all the laws apply. And part of the law is that religious freedom is not to be abridged.
Additionally, there was precedence that the bible distribution was OK: "The Collier County School District policy specifically allows the distribution of literature by nonprofit organizations, but only with the approval of the superintendent and the Community Request Committee, whose members are appointed by the superintendent. Approval was denied to World Changers, despite the fact that its distribution included a disclaimer of any school endorsement or sponsorship and that receiving a Bible was purely voluntary. "
So...non-profits are allowed to distribute materials, but all of a sudden bibles are no longer ok??
It is no longer possible to argue that religion is not under siege. The school arbitrarily decided the bible should be singled out as an unacceptable item to hand out. Doesn't that abridge the "free exercise thereof"?
Lastly, the reason the school board gave is bogus: "Bibles do not provide any educational benefit to the students." So there is no educational value to the primary document that provides first hand insight to the culture of the ancient Hebrews, early Christians, the life of a man who had an unimaginable impact on history (Jesus), information about the Roman Empire and the status of other peoples within it. Really, no educational value there? And that's from a completely secular perspective.
My Western Civilization professor at the University of Virginia was not a religious man, but always advised that we accept the bibles when they were being handed out. He said there was always value in having the primary source on you even just as a reference.
For that very same class, we were assigned to read part of the Old Testament while studying ancient Mesopotamia. An acquaintance saw me reading and asked: "What are you reading?"
Me: "The Bible"
Acquaintance: "
Why?" with shock and disdain.
Me: "Because it's assigned for my Western Civ. class."
Her: *with relief* "Oh." *phew*
Such hostility! How very rude as well to judge someone's reading material like that.
But the bible is educational for other reasons too. In English class at my
public high school, a teacher once told us that in order to really understand the vast majority of literature (from Shakespeare to Dostoevsky), one needed to have a decent familiarity with the Odyssey and the Bible. Why? Because references to these two riddle just about everything you will ever read, at least as far as literature is concerned. Authors constantly use biblical phrases, allusions and allegories within their work. To miss these is to miss significant portions of the meaning and the message.
But all secular value aside, the bible is the Bible. It's a sacred text, and there's no reason people shouldn't be given the opportunity to learn about the sacred. I remember receiving bible handouts in middle school (while I was not particularly religious), and I never thought it an imposition. The kind, old men in suits just handed it if we reached out for it while walking home. And you know, I actually read it. I opened the book when I got home and looked through it.
Granted, it gave me more questions than answers back then, but I learned something. And I at least gained a familiarity with what the Word really said, and not just what someone else was telling me about it. That in itself is valuable.
What do you think of the "educational value" of the Bible? Is it constitutional for the bible to be excluded from freely being given like this? Should people have the right to be exposed to the sacred?
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Comments (77)
Now that is interesting. I wonder what the reaction would be if I handed out Hesiod's Theogony, or the Nag Hammadi texts, or any of the Buddhist sutras, or the Tao Te Ching, or a compilation of Upanishads?
Probably no reaction at all, given that most public school officials in the U.S. would be lucky to recognize even one of those texts. The Bible has the misfortune of being well-known in the U.S. The Koran might cause a kerfluffle too, if it was being handed out at schools.
I wonder if I could convince one of the "Greek" fraternities at the nearby university to distribute Hesiod's Theogony at one of the public schools in the area. That could be fun, and might make a good point.
The Bible originally in our nation provided the foundational elements for education and very much influenced the forming of our govt. and nation even though many would like to deny the place that it had in such things. Certainly not all of the nation's early leaders were professed Christians, but they were very much aware of the principles contained in the Bible and recognized its value in encouraging a culture of both education and civilty in this country and they encouraged those principles of morality, courage and loyalty. Too bad that is no longer the case. Liberty, civilty, decency and moral strength will continue to dwindle as people and the institutions they are a part of increasingly embrace the attitudes expressed by this Florida school board!!
Very informative post Stephanie! LAW--
@Nous_Apeiron@xanga - We should go to a school and try to hand those out, just to see what kind of reaction it gets! The only one I don't know is Hesiod's Theogony.
I hate public school.
More and more it seems to me that in America, "freedom of religion" really means "freedom to not be Christian." Respecting other religions and promoting religious freedom shouldn't mean denying Christians the right to worship, express their beliefs, or even just make them known in public, but that's what often happens.
Biblical references don't just appear in canonical literature. They are EVERYWHERE, from movies to TV shows to Justin Bieber songs. Jesus Christ is arguably the most influential person ever to walk the earth. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but do we not measure time based on His life? B.C./A.D. mark...based on the year He was born. That's a pretty major impact on world history.)
Sounds pretty educational to me.
@NightCometh@xanga - I hate it too...
@Suhijaquerida - "Jesus Christ is arguably the most influential person ever to walk the earth."
Very arguably. Do you know the population of China? China is not a Christian nation.
This is really about the spirit of, and agenda behind, why there is such a movement to push Christianity onto public school children.
First of all the founding fathers were very clear about the importance of the separation of church and state. Remember where they came from, a Europe where church and state worked together to oppress people.
In most parts of the country live people of various religious groups. If we put one religion into the school system we should put them all in. In that case there will be no time left for English and Math. In the case of the Bible, which version and which testament should we make kids study? If parents want to teach their children about religion that is their choice to do at home or they can send them to private religious schools. Taxpayers should not be required to pay for what churches apparently lack the ability to do, if we assume it is so necessary for kids to take religious classes in school.
It's kind of amazing that we in this nation look at a country such as Iran and agree that we wouldn't want our nation to become a theocracy and yet there are people who turn around and want just that. People don't want the Bible added to school curriculum to balance out the study of other religions. There is no study of other religions in public schools. They want the Bible in there in order to proselytize. I'm guessing that if you learned your children were studying the Koran or the Torah or the Bhagavad Gita in school you would be all over your board of education.
I'm a Buddhist but I would not want Buddhism taught in public schools. It is very clear to people in this democracy why a segment of the Christian population wants to put Bible study into public schools in spite of the wisdom of the founding fathers and most other people in the country.
@Suhijaquerida - "Respecting other religions and promoting religious freedom shouldn't mean denying Christians the right to worship, express their beliefs, or even just make them known in public, but that's what often happens."
And that happens with every religion. I don't see anyone protesting outside of churches or the homes of people of Christian faith but pushing Christianity on school children who are there for the soul purpose of receiving a secular education is contrary to the beliefs, values, and the very Constitution of this nation.
@TheSutraDude@xanga - Really, since when is passing out copies of the Bible pushing "Christianity on to school children?" or making children study the Bible as part of their cirriculum?? Nothing was said in the article about making it a part of school cirriculum--just the simple act of handing a copy of the Scriptures to anyone who wanted one. Nothing more--nothing less. And why should that be such a terrible thing?? LAW--
"To the American people
I bid a fond farewell. Guard your liberties. It is the trust of each
generation to pass a free republic to the next. And if I know you right,
you will rouse yourself from slumber to ensure exactly that." --
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
"Liberty is the right to choose. Freedom
Quotesis the result of the right choice." --Anon.
on Freedom
@TheSutraDude@xanga - In the history of civilization there has never been a government which has been more closely connected with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the principles of theism than the United States of America. Though Europe had close ties between church and state, ultimately, it was a class-based system and the political equality originally promoted in the US is closer to the Christian ideal Jesus taught (The neo-cons and neo-libs, however, are radically altering this equity). Before the American Revolution occurred, there was an incredible spiritual revival in the country, known historically as the “Great Awakening.” Most of the signers of the Constitution were dedicated Christians and believed that each individual had dignity and value being created in the image of God. Thus, each person was entitled to “inalienable rights.” God talk is one of those rights found in scripture. Countries established based upon anti-theistic principles, by contrast, such as the Soviet Union, present day China and North Korea, have a great disrespect for human dignity and human rights, such as free speech. Many US Founding Fathers realized that true freedom and democracy are not even possible if the people do not have a moral compass.
The real agenda today is not passing out some Bibles but, rather, forcing students to accept the materialistic, atheistic world-view as fact, when, increasingly, Intelligent Design science is disproving this hypothesis and must be violently censored for these reasons.
Are Atheist Jellyfish Taking Over the World?
@Mr_Turniphead@xanga - As I stated, one has to look at the spirit and the agenda of people who wish to hand out Bibles at schools. Call it intent, something which we often have to judge when serving jury duty. Would people who want to hand out Bibles at public schools feel as eager to see the Koran handed out at public schools? Why is it necessary to hand out either?
So I say "Really" back to you.
@templestream@xanga - The idea that intelligent design and science are ultimately at odds is indeed a problem that arises from both sides.
As for your statement that our government is closely tied to principals of theism, I agree but as someone born into a family of Christian ministers, and someone who has studied many religions and is now a practicing Buddhist by choice, I find the principals of theism to be very much the same throughout the world, distorted by institutional politics and religion throughout the world but at their core theisms bring the same message.
Here are some things to consider:
The word "God" does not appear within the text of the Constitution of the United States. After spending three-and-a-half months debating and negotiating about what should go into the document that would govern the land, the framers drafted a constitution that is secular. The U.S. Constitution is often confused with the Declaration of Independence, and it's important to understand the difference.
The Declaration of Independence is seen as that document that established the new nation of the United States. It was written by Thomas Jefferson in 1776. It was signed by the Continental Congress and sent to King George III of England. It is a very eloquent document that is celebrated every July 4, but it is not the law of the land. It is a statement of sentiments directed to King George III in reaction to unfair taxation. The U.S. Constitution was ratified on March 4, 1789 -- thirteen years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
The Declaration of Independence refers to "the Creator:"
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
The Declaration of Independence is not a legal document; it is not the U.S. Constitution. Foes of the principle of separation of church and state often refer to the word "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence as proof that the framers of the U.S. Constitution intended for the United States to be ruled by a soveriegn being. Nothing could be further from the truth. The United States Constitution was written and ratified by elected officials representing a coalition of Enlightenment rationalists and evangelical Christians who were deeply concerned about entanglements between religion and government.
The Tripoli Treaty of 1797 between the US and the Barbary States, unanimously approved by the US Senate on June 10, 1797, specifically states that the US is NOT a Christian nation. At that time, the US government was still dominated by those who are referred to today as the "Founding Fathers". ARTICLE 11:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...
Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun in the Lee v. Weisman ruling, 1992:
"When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some."
The quotes came from: http://www.theocracywatch.org/separation_church_state2.htm
Most US school students, and citizens, don't know the term
separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. It was
taken from a private letter by Thomas Jefferson. This
misinterpretation of the Constitution has been long propagated by
historical revisionists.
There has been a well documented agenda to actually dumb down US
students to make them compliant citizens of the global world order,
rather than to make them successful as individuals.
If you have
not read Iserbyt's best-seller, you should at least peruse through
the free e-book for your own knowledge of what has been transpiring:
The Deliberate
Dumbing Down of America
taken from a private letter by Thomas Jefferson. This
misinterpretation of the Constitution has been long propagated by
historical revisionists."
That is a popular argument akin to saying that although a system states that all flavors of ice cream are equal and have equal rights under the law it doesn't state that vanilla does not deserve to exert its will and prioritize its flavor over other flavors.
"It is true that the literal phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution, but that does not mean the concept isn't there. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."
"In an 1802 letter to the Danbury (Conn.) Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson, then president, declared that the American people through the First Amendment had erected a "wall of separation between church and state." (Colonial religious liberty pioneer Roger Williams used a similar phrase 150 years earlier.)Jefferson, however, was not the only leading figure of the post-revolutionary period to use the term separation. James Madison, considered to be the Father of the Constitution, said in an 1819 letter, "[T]he number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church and state." In an earlier, undated essay (probably early 1800s), Madison wrote, "Strongly guarded...is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."
"Jefferson's Danbury letter has been cited favorably by the Supreme Court many times."
i'm sure everyone would be freaking out and calling people terrorists if someone wanted to distribute copies of the Quran. Christians only get upset about freedom FROM religion when the religion is their own. sorry... but if i wanted my kids to be exposed to religion at school, i'd send them to a religious school. no one should be handing out books of any spirituality in a public setting, especially one where children have no choice but to attend.
some other points...
"That seems...to violate the first amendment "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free
exercise thereof.""
where is it in official Christian doctrine that handing out religious texts is a form of worship??
"So there is no educational value to the primary document that provides
first hand insight to the culture of the ancient Hebrews, early
Christians, the life of a man who had an unimaginable impact on history
(Jesus), information about the Roman Empire and the status of other
peoples within it."
then why aren't the Christians handing out copies of Livy and Josephus? in terms of historicity, those texts are far more respected by scholars. stop with the smoke screen... clearly, they are trying to convert. this has nothing to do with educational value.
"But all secular value aside, the bible is the Bible. It's a sacred
text, and there's no reason people shouldn't be given the opportunity
to learn about the sacred."
more hypocrisy. unless you'd want your child to study other sacred texts just as much, you're really only interested in preserving your own faith.
@Mr_Turniphead@xanga - i don't believe that people are only capable of being good with religion. America was also founded on slavery, misogyny, child labor, and racism. i haven't heard anyone arguing for those ideals to be preserved.
"Nothing was said in the article about making
it a part of school cirriculum--just the simple act of handing a copy
of the Scriptures to anyone who wanted one."
i had to suffer through the experience growing up. i felt ridiculously pressured. no child should have to deal with that while they are at school to learn. growing up is hard enough as it is.
@Suhijaquerida -
"More and more it seems to me that in America, "freedom of religion" really means "freedom to not be Christian.""
to be blunt, for a long time in Western society you were a complete social outcast if you did not attend church and did not appear devout. if it had been any other religion, i think the same effects would apply. i think Christians confuse losing their perfect stranglehold on culture with being persecuted, and you guys should still relish in the fact that in America, people still assume you're Christian (because i really don't).
"Jesus Christ is arguably the most
influential person ever to walk the earth. (Correct me if I'm wrong,
but do we not measure time based on His life? B.C./A.D. mark...based on
the year He was born. That's a pretty major impact on world history.) "
that made me laugh. sorry, but i'll worship whoever first discovered agriculture over someone who started yet another religion any day of the week. without the free time to develop spiritual thought, Jesus would have been just another hunter trying to feed his family.
@templestream@xanga -
"In the history of civilization there has
never been a government which has been more closely connected with the
teachings of Jesus Christ and the principles of theism than the United
States of America."
why does that mean American children should be required to be exposed to Christianity?
"Many US Founding Fathers realized that true
freedom and democracy are not even possible if the people do not have a
moral compass."
last i checked, people are capable of being good without religion. but even supposing they aren't, why not teach Buddhism or Wicca as well? if a Muslim family is trying to raise their children with THAT moral compass, how is it not against their rights to have it contradicted in a PUBLIC school setting? if you lived in a country where Christianity is a minority religion, would you be perfectly fine with your children being taught that the only way to be a good citizen is to be a member of another religion? because that's precisely the message you seem to want to send: you're only American if you are Christian. if you want THAT, go found your own theocracy somewhere and leave the rest of us alone.
"Most US school students, and citizens, don't know the term
separation of church and state is not in the Constitution."
there was nothing about women being allowed to vote in there at first, either. just because it's not in the Constitution, doesn't mean it isn't a damn good idea. and i find it strange that a Christian seems to want to look at the Constitution with the same level of infallibility as the Bible.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - Great points!
I was going to reply, but Too_pretty_to_die nailed it...the same people crying persecution at this act would be flipping out if Satanic Verses were being handed out.
I wish the Christian community would choose to either have their cake or eat it on the issue. Public school is already sprinkled with thinly coated Christian values and we have God stuck on our money and injected into our pledge.
@TheSutraDude@xanga - thanks. i just get tired of Christians feeling so sorry for themselves. it shows a real ignorance of the world and their own religious history.
Anyone ever notice how the Bible says we're all so eager to do things OUR OWN way?
Ironic, isn't it? That's exactly what this whole argument is about. And look at our nation now. The more we get AWAY from God, the more we go downhill. But the people who follow God have more going for them than most. An entire Hispanic city years ago dedicated themselves to God and, through great trial and effort, managed to eradicate the drug and gang influences that plagued them. It wasn't until people started living for God that things got BETTER.
This isn't a political question versus a religious one.
It's a matter of whether we're going to follow God in EVERYTHING or not...including the way we run government.
@When_We_Were_Both_Cats@xanga - Well, Satanism propagates lies and hatred, among other things. Do you want that in your schools, too?
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - We're not ignorant of the history of the Church. We just get tired of what appears to be an isolated restriction against Christians. Basically, a wrong cannot be used to set another wrong as right. Many say Christians are hypocrites...go figure that ALL of humanity is hypocritical. All the same, many of us are striving to do what is right, regardless of the past.
If the government says that "this" is okay for all in the general circle, then "this" should be okay for Christians, as well, for we are part of that general circle. And yet we find little by little, we're being excluded. The government is wrong for that. There is nothing that can justify that.
@NaitoOfNarnia@xanga - The government does not say it's ok for other religions to do this. The government also does not say it's ok for other religions to turn our government into a Christian government. I am a Buddhist and I would never want to see Buddhists standing around at schools handing out books about Buddhism.
"We're not ignorant of the history of the Church. "
But what I see more and more is that there are certain types of Christians who are ignorant about the beliefs of others.
@NaitoOfNarnia@xanga -
"Well, Satanism propagates lies and hatred,
among other things. Do you want that in your schools, too?"
doesn't Christianity, by definition, think that of all religions?
"We're not ignorant of the history of the
Church."
i didn't say history of the Church (assuming you are using the term in the common way, to refer to the Catholic Church), i said the history of the religion. huge difference.
"We just get tired of what appears to be an
isolated restriction against Christians."
if i ever heard of a Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, Jewish or Muslim group who wanted to hand out texts at a public school, i'd be against it as well. the simple reality is, i have yet to hear of ANY other world religion other than Christianity expecting such privileges in the public sphere. at best, they only seek out the same privileges afforded to Christianity when they notice the leniency (which usually pisses off Christians, ironically). you're being singled out because you're the only religion acting out. you're not special, just infinitely more annoying in comparison.
"If the government says that "this" is okay
for all in the general circle, then "this" should be okay for
Christians, as well, for we are part of that general circle."
except... the government says it's NOT okay for everyone. and you guys are the only ones who seem to be incapable of listening. really, i don't see how i should feel sorry for you.