There have been several posts on Revelife recently about Christianity being about having a relationship with Christ. I see where they're coming from, and they're probably right.
But I just don't get that. I'm speaking only for myself, so hopefully this doesn't make me a bad a Christian. I just can't wrap my mind around what it means to have a relationship with God. God is God. God is an amazing, all-encompassing, unfathomable reality. That much I can sense. I don't know how to talk to reality itself.
Other than that, my faith is a logical quest. I became Catholic when I started realizing that my answers to the big questions weren't adequate. Looking for meaning in a transient world was impossible...Looking for ethics and morality in a meaningless world was also impossible. So there had to be something meaningful and eternal. I am and have been committed to intellectual responsibility, reasoning not just accepting. I think that everyone is different and that God and Christ come to people in the best way for that person and that maybe the best way to come to me was in reasoned premises and theology.
I am an introverted, unemotional person. My husband teared up during our wedding vows; I didn't, even though I love him with all my heart. Maybe relationship is not how Christ manifested himself to me. Is that possible? Maybe it's my educational experience; I learned to encounter religion through a scholarly lens and I continue that currently.
Whatever the case, my faith is not about personal happy feelings and encouraging sentiments. It's about reasoned theology, a reasonable worldview, and a strong moral code based on that worldview (which is love). It's also about practice: things and actions that I can do. I can make a point to go to church; I'm not always able to make myself feel God's presence.
I hope that one day I can understand what other Christians mean when they talk about their relationship. I've brought this up to priests who have responded that I should be grateful for the way that God comes to me and that there is nothing wrong with having a reason-based approach. This makes me feel better, but I still feel like I'm doing something wrong.
It bothers me greatly because of what Jesus has said: that God has revealed to children what he has hidden from the learned. I believe that faith should be accessible to everyone regardless of station in life. Should my faith really rely on intellectual premises? Or is it ok that I am like that and others are different?
How do you approach your faith? Is it a relationship or something else? Got any advice on how to grow in relationship with Christ?
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Interesting.
My faith is a little of both. I'm very intellectual, but I'm also pretty relationship-based. I crave relationship, communion with others. So, naturally, a relationship with God, who is EVERYTHING, would be something I'd probably gravitate towards. At least I'd like to think so...
As with any relationship though, I am not always perfect at keeping it all good and what-not. Sometimes I forget to talk to people, sometimes I forget to talk to God. Sometimes I don't think about what others might need/want/feel. I guess that one doesn't really apply too much to God, but I guess I forget God in general sometimes.
I think a relationship with Him is what we're made for. People, human-kind, is relational at the core. I think if you're honest with yourself, you crave at least some relationship with others. If not, you probably wouldn't have gotten married. Would you really be okay with being completely alone your whole life? Only talking to people on the surface and never really getting to know anyone and never talking to them more than once or a few times?
I believe God wants to know us. Yes, He technically knows everything, but I think He wants to hear it from us. The best way I can describe that is with an analogy: Let's say you know everything about your best friend (or maybe husband in your case) - wouldn't you still want to talk to them? Wouldn't you still want to know them? I think of it kind of like that. Though, that's generally my analogy for an answer to the question "Why Pray?" it kind of works here.
I'm not very emotional most of the time, though I can be. I probably won't cry at my wedding, but I guess I can't say for sure. I am no where near that stage of my life! I'm also pretty introverted, but I still want to be near people (as long as I do get some time to myself too, haha!).
Anyway, often it's hard for me to imagine a relationship with God though. I'm not very sure about "feeling God" or "hearing God" - what that feels or sounds like. So, really, it feels kind of one-sided to me...MOST of the time. However, not always. There are times where I have felt His presence, but I guess if I "felt" Him all the time, then faith wouldn't be needed. Huh?
Anyway, I came to Christ based on both intellectual reasons and relational reasons. Intellectually, I searched out a lot of answers to a lot of questions and those answers seemed logical (though, I do still have my doubts somedays - but that's another topic for another day). Relationally, I met some amazing people who just embodied a Biblical love. They showed me what love really was and how to love. They brought me to a communion with God and the body. :)
Alright, sorry for writing a full novel! Hope that's somewhat helpful?
Hello my dear friend in Christ! I just wanted to stop by and encourage you in your walk.
Here are just some things that are interesting to note:
-How do you interact within relationships with other people? Do you spend time in conversation with them, getting to know about them?
-Or, are your relationships dependent upon their answers to generic interview questions?
-What is prayer, to you? It undoubtedly has to be important for scripture mentions it quite frequently. Prayer is one way to grow in a relationship with God. Is it one-sided?
It sounds as if you are using your personality to give yourself excuses not to grow? Knowledge is great...but how does that knowledge affect you on the inside? That's where growth and the relationship occurs. For example, currently, God's teaching me how to love people like he does. I can study scripture all day and night, and read about love, because it's mentioned that many times. But when I try to put it into action, i'm not always a success. Praise God if you are! Thus, the relationship. He shows you how to better love others through his pushing and prodding.
Sometimes, the thing that keeps us the most from growing is ourselves. Think on that.
Reason is an important part of Christianity, but the heart of the matter is a relationship. That relationship is not about feelings only. It is about knowing God personally, through good feelings, bad feelings, and no feelings.
In Philippians 3:10, Paul said, "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the
fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,"
It can seem overwhelming to know the omnipotent God of the universe. That's one reason He sent Christ, who showed us what God is like in terms we could understand. I believe the place to start to learn about relationship with Christ is by studying the things He did when He was on earth. He didn't interact with people in a distant way-He was personal in His actions. He touched people and showed His love individually.
Your hunger to know God is not even one millionth as strong as His hunger to have a personal, intimate relationship with you. I know this from personal experience. I have an incurable disease, and I have been in some terrible places emotionally and physically. The reason I am alive today is because of my personal experience of God's love-personal experience, not reasoned knowledge. If it was not for that, I believe I would have committed suicide. His personal tenderness to me kept me going and keeps me going.
1 Corinthians 8:1 says, "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." That's true for us. We can know everything, and it won't be enough to satisfy the hunger in our hearts for love. Sometimes that hunger gets buried-we get so numb that we don't even feel it. But it's there deep down, waiting for us to let God love us tenderly and personally.
Knowledge of God can never, ever substitute for relationship with God. It is good, and it should be a big part of every Christian's life. But it's not enough.
You sound hungry. The first step is just asking God. He wants to have a personal relationship with you, no question. If you ask, He will help you get there, also no question.
@ashleyannaka@xanga - "Would you really be okay with being
completely alone your whole life? Only talking to people on the surface
and never really getting to know anyone and never talking to them more
than once or a few times?"
This is a really good point. Sharing thoughts and deeper feelings with others is so much more connective and fulfilling than charring about the weather.
@Pickwick12@xanga - ""Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."
That's true for us. We can know everything, and it won't be enough to
satisfy the hunger in our hearts for love."
Yep! I need so much help...
@Pickwick12@xanga - Definitely agree with the first step here. I prayed "God, I want to know you" and wow has He come through in interesting ways...haha. I'm still growing (and always will be - relationships are dynamic, always changing). I'm still learning.
My relationship with God feels one-sided often. However, as I continue pursuing Him, He continues revealing more of Himself. :)
As a logic-minded, intellectual young woman, I can actually relate a lot to you in this. Although I sincerely believe I have a relationship with God, I find that a lot of my faith based on logic, reasoning, knowledge, etc.
Do you talk to God? Do you consider him a father? If so, then you do have a relationship with him. Maybe it's not ooey, gooey, feel-goody like some people's relationship, but I believe it's a relationship indeed. I think you've revealed something about yourself when you said that you didn't cry when you read your vows, even though you love your husband with all your heart. Perhaps you do love God with all your heart as well, but you just don't manifest it in an emotional way.
Each of us are different... although we love the same God, we express our love in different ways. Really, think about your relationship with God the same way you think about your relationship with other human beings. We all have different ways of interacting with people, different love languages.
Personally, I feel like I encounter God in a really intellectual way. I love him with all my heart, but my joy is found, not in emotional experiences, but rather in my ever expanding quest for knowledge about him. I delight in learning about who he is and what he does. I yearn for knowledge about him BECAUSE I love him. Maybe it's similar for you?
@StephanieP - haha! The weather is so boring. :P
Feelings are hard to share...but when I have shared, I've felt much closer to said-person. Or, amazing things have happened. For instance, this past semester, I started sharing some really deep stuff going on in my heart/life w/ a friend of mine - stuff I hadn't really ever talked to ANYONE about. Turned out, she was struggling w/ a LOT of the same stuff... We were able to help eachother out of this brokeness and begin healing from it. She said to me recently: "Because of honesty about your struggles, you have allowed me to come clean about my own. You have allowed the light to shine on my darkness. I thank God for you everyday because you have allowed me to be completely honest." I think this is good. :) It wouldn't have been possible without relationship! And, through her, I've also been able to get closer to God. And, w/ her guidance. She happens to be one of my mentors (funny that I ended up mentoring her too - God can meet us where we are and use a lot of different things to do it!)
@StephanieP - I'm really, really excited for you, and I mean that honestly. I really had no idea that we could know God personally, and I reached out to him one day. He showed me His love right then and there, and it's been an amazing ride since then. He's the best friend ever. I'll be praying for your journey!
@StephanieP - I recently had a refreshing break through in my prayer life. When I stopped speaking preformatted prayers, regurgitated prayers, routine prayers, and lip service prayers, and I opened up in all honesty, and shared my heart daily on the issues I care about in my life and about other people, what I struggle with, and if I think I am not growing in an area, when my prayer life became more natural in that sense, it improved substantially. These are in depth/ in detail sharing with God, which can sometimes last my whole 45 min drive to work; I consider that part of relationship.
Even notice when people pray, sometimes they sound the same each time, or they say father God, Holy Father, Lord, etc, etc, etc like 100 times in their 2 minute prayer, or they sound like the pastor's prayer, or the radio station prayer. You don't have to be like that, just be fully honest in prayer, and speak like you would to a friend.
I hope that made sense.
@StephanieP - Ah, my sister! I didn't know you were married! God BLESS you! And that you found a man who offered tears on your wedding day; what diamond could then please you after so great a gift? Wow; Jesus is being really sweet on you!
Reason or no, you have a relationship with Christ. You may not "feel" it per se, but I'm sure you are aware of it, even if it is on a very cerebral yet deeply meaningful level. If you never "feel" like you are in a relationship with God, please don't also "feel" like there is something wrong with you! Christ knows you and loves you, and He will relate to you and love in a way that is unique to you, in a way that honors who you are. There are so many ways He relates to you, especially in two ways: the Eucharist and your Marriage.
When you receive the Eucharist at Mass, you receive the Living Christ. What happens when you consume food? It becomes an inseparable part of you, it nourishes you and gives you life. The very same occurs when you receive this Sacrament of Sacraments: the very Living God, Jesus Christ, unites to you, nourishes you, and gives you Life. He is the Bridegroom; you are His Bride (being that you are part of His Church!). In Genesis "the two become one flesh;" in the Eucharist, Christ and the Church become one as well, though in a mystical, spiritual way. That mystical marriage of Christ and the Church as lived and experienced in the Eucharist is also reflected in your own marriage.
Christ also chooses to relate to you through your husband; He so loves you that He worked in the heart of the young man you married, shaping Him into the kind of man that would love you and whom you could love, not merely so you could love each other but moreso that in coming to love your husband, you would come to love Him all the more. Likewise He so loves your husband that He shares His own place as your Divine Spouse with him (what a lucky man!), entrusting His Bride to him and granting him an earthly share in His Divine Joy.
These are just two ways (very important ways!) that you and Christ exist in loving relationship. Pretty spectacular, huh? So remember that when you love your husband, this is an expression and witness of your love for Christ (and hopefully your husband realizes the same toward you!!), and your relationship with Him deepens. Likewise the manner in which you live your Catholic faith, by prayer, by attending Mass, by trying to live a life of virtue and tackling sin head-on via the Sacrament of Reconciliation, etc. is all tied in to your Eucharistic relationship with the Lord Who loves you, whom you also love. If you have difficulty realizing your relationship with Christ, remember that your marriage is a living allegory of that relationship; let it guide you! Just as your vows were so moving and meaningful even though you didn't cry or anything, your relationship with Christ may be the same. Just love Him as you are accustomed to truly, authentically loving; there is nothing more He desires than your beautiful heart overflowing with love for Him!
As always, very dear sister, I'm always available for your questions and dialogue!
I think that you have a relationship, no matter how you have chosen to relate to Christ. Is your relationship growing and changing?
Others have said a lot of what comes to mind for me already, so I won't repeat it.
perhaps - just a thought - your relationship with Christ is one of a mentor/teacher/rabboni ?
i mean, when you think about this, it's one of the first relationships Christ formed.
that was the relationship He had with His disciples. some He had deeper relationships with, but most of them He was a teacher to.
[the following is one of my favorite accounts of such relationship, found in john 20]
"...Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away." Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher)."
i think it is about relationship... but what sets relationships apart are the vows made between the two parties... even if it's just as (seemingly) casual as a friendship all the way up to husband and wife. i like to think of my Catholic religion as the covenant that sanctifies my relationship with Christ and with others.
@jolehi - Jesus was certainly her beloved Teacher in that story.
That story continues like this:
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the
Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my
Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
I love that because it shows that He was her Teacher-and something else, too! He was her close friend, close enough that she ran to touch Him and hold onto Him. I believe He wants to be that to each of us, too.
Thanks for the reminder of that awesome encounter with Jesus.
I feel like Christianity is meant to be a relationship, and not a religion. It wouldn't be worth it to me, to just follow the rules of religion. Feeling the presence of the Holy Ghost is the most amazing thing to me. I love speaking in tongues. I love feeling close to God.Â
I would tell you to try a more charismatic church. There are definitely churches where the Holy Spirit is more present than others. Try and find them, it will be completely worth it.I cringe when I hear 'Christianity is about relationship, not religion'; as if the two must be mutually exclusive. It is a saying repeated all too often by people who simply don't think deeply enough about it. If one does not practice religion, how does one relate to God?
'Christianity' is a religion, that is sure; however to be a follower of Christ, that is a much deeper matter. God sent his son Jesus so that we might be reconciled in relationship to God. For many people I know and have read about (amongst whom are some wonderful Catholic Christians), religion (read: religious practice) is how they relate to God; the medium of their relationship. As long as relationship with God is the focus and reason for religion, that is OK by me. Remember Jesus' harsh words "Depart from me evildoers, for I never knew you" (Mt 7:23).
Learning and logic are great and not everyone has much capacity for those things either. God is like the ocean. It doesn't matter what kind or color of bathing suit you wear. It doesn't matter if you dive right in or stick your toes in the water first. It doesn't matter if you jog along that edge with your feet momentarily splashing through the water until it recedes and it doesn't matter if you sit on the beach gazing out at it in wonder. Nobody owns the ocean and ultimately nobody can tell you how or how not you should play in it.
A lot of people love to push their views on others no matter how steeped in ignorance those views may be so logic and learning can be very important. When we die nobody we mistakenly listened to is going to be there with us. Nobody is going to say "Oopsies. I guess I was wrong. You shouldn't have squandered your life in fear." The ability of critical thought can be a huge asset and it's better to learn from your own mistakes than to regret following someone else's.
Stephanie, I think it is great that you are a logical person, and I agree with everyone that said you do have a relationship with God, but I'd also like to second some of the opinions that relationship can grow. And my best advice for you would be you ask God for it, he will give it to you.
My faith is a relationship while being a discovery. I study my Bible so I can know what I must do for him.
I don't think relationship and reason are opposed. Like you were saying about your relationship with your husband, relationship does not equal emotion. Emotion should not be contrived or demanded, but rather a natural response to the way things are. Some people will have more and some will have less emotion.
Relationship with God means we that we are in Christ and Christ is in us (a big theme in the book of Ephesians). We are also adopted as God's children; we become His family (Ephesians 1:15). We're related to Him objectively. Relationship with God also means that we don't just study Him with our minds, but we personally trust Him. We know Him to some degree, however small. I think Christians often overstate the degree to which we know Him. He is unfathomable and we only see a poor reflection of Him (1 Corinthians 13:12). However, we have the assurance that He knows all about us, hears our prayers, and intimately teaches and counsels us through His Spirit living in us (John 14:17, 26).
Hope this helps!
Father/Child, Bridegroom/Bride.........the Bible indicates it is a relationship. Yet, feelings are sometimes traps for the unwary. I may not 'feel' God's love (like you may not 'feel' Mr. Right's obvious love for you), but that does not mean it does not exist. Don't get worked up about it. Your intellectual confidence is wonderful! However, there may be some time when even it is challenged. Do not despair. Seek out those (like Ancient Scribe above) for counsel and encouragement. When you see what all God has done for you (e.g., the death of His Son for you!) and continues to provide (faith, Christian friends, hubby), then you grow. Keep studying His Word, keep attending worship,and look to be someone who can help others see this wonderful truth.
I think two big things are less pre-thought out or written prayers and more off the cuff praying to God that is from the heart. Another is reading His word, and praying also while reading. Also maybe a third thing... our works should be out of gratitude to God, not forced things that we have to do to cover our sins, or make things right again but just stuff we now want to do to because we enjoy doing that which God wants and because we are so grateful for what he has done for us. Ok so it was three things, lol.
@AmyDoo@xanga - Matthew 22: 36-37
It is also repeated more than once in the Bible, but here is the scripture that I know for sure.
God bless!
-Jen
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga -
@TheSutraDude@xanga -
@rusty0505@xanga -
@Happily_Married_Guy@xanga -
@goodnessgraceness@xanga -
@midge4ever@xanga -
@caroliiineee@xanga -
I hope I tagged everyone! Just wanted to say thank you for responding to this personal post, for your insight and help. I am exceedingly grateful for all the advice and am seeking to implement much of it!
Think about it this way, who do you have relationships with. Your parents, God the Father is the perfect parent who loves his children perfectly. Siblings, God the Son is the perfect brother, always caring and loving and willing to lend a hand when he can. Friends, God wants to be your perfect friend, always willing to listen or lend an ear or shoulder. He'll be there when no one else is, and even will forgive your deepest darkest secrets and tell you they don't mater any more because only he can wipe them away. Whats even better, he knows you wont be perfect, and even though it may make him sad, he is forgiving and overjoyed every time you come to him. He doesn't just want someone to come to him when they are having trouble or because its Sunday. He wants someone who will come to him in the good times and bad, who will come talk to him on Tuesday because they were in a car accident, or on Thursday because their child came home with a bad cough. He wants the person who comes to him on Wednesday because they heard the words 'cancer free' or on Friday when someone sees their new born baby for the first time. Being intellectually close to God and perusing him that way is great, but I think these are the reasons that having a personal relationship with him are important too.
And don't worry about not having a close relationship with him right now, like all relationships, it takes time. Eventually you'll find how he is calling you to speak with him, and it very well may be intellectually. Never loose faith.