A private Lutheran school in California kicked out two girls because these girls were accused of, and apparently later confessed to,
being lesbians. It was taken to court -- oh the American way! -- and the court determined that the school was within it's legal rights to do so.
I do agree that the school should legally have that right, being as it is a private religious school. However, being that it is a Christian school I wonder if they should make use of that right.
The article didn't say that the girls were causing trouble, or that even they refused to repent. The girls were caught after they had posted on their Myspace -- be careful what you post kiddos! -- that they were in love with one another.
My thoughts on the matter are that it would have been a good opportunity to show the girls the love of Christ and perhaps offer counseling rather than to kick them out of the school.
I also realize that it is California, and it was reported in a San Francisco newspaper and the story is likely very biased, but, based on what I've said here, and what the article says, what do you think they should have done?
What should the school have done in this situation? Would you have made the same decision? Who decides what is acceptable in private Christian schools?
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Comments (47)
I think it really depends on what the "code of conduct" stated (most Christian schools require not only the student but the parents to sign this). Would they kick out a student who had gotten pregnant? I'm sure that sin = sin in their eyes. It's really an issue of where do we draw the line? Clearly most schools (even Christian ones) aren't going to kick out a student for lying, so they shouldn't be kicked out for having sex or being homosexual. I think it's a good idea to accept everyone, as long as they don't interfere with learning. Heck, I went to a Christian school from K-12, and I actually enjoyed some of my high school education more because my school inadvertently (or not?) accepted a few students who weren't Christians and who questioned everything. It helped me learn a little more about how to debate and how to stand up for what you believe in.
i dont think that any one sin is greater than another. all are equal.. which is why if someone is lying.. and then continues to do so over and over and over again.. or disrespecting their elders over and over again or gossiping over and over .. the consequences should be the same. God gives chances to everyone but still even in the end there is a consequence for those that continue in un-Godly ways right? and that consequence happens to be the same for all sins regardless.
I just have to wonder... why does homosexuality rate higher among sins than other things? Would they kick a student out for lying, disrespecting their parents, or gossiping? Nahhh, I don't think so. That would just be ridiculous, right?
Why then, should they kick out these girls? It doesn't seem like they were being disruptive in school or anything like that. They simply aren't falling within the lines of morality that the school upholds; but realistically, how many students in the school actually obey all the rules?
My thoughts are: if they aren't being disruptive to the learning experience and are not hurting anyone, why should they be kicked out? Like you said... this is a good opportunity to show them the love of Christ. But then again, why should I expect that? There are a lot of Christians who refuse to show the love of Christ to "sinners."
@Morningstarrising@xanga - I agree with you wholeheartedly. We (Christians) can be so hypocritical sometimes. We say all sins are equal, but do most of us REALLY believe that (or at least show that we believe it in our actions)?
Wonderful! Another group of Christians who are making a difference for Christ. Not a positive difference, not a constructive difference, not any real difference. They've made a difference to themselves and let's be honest who the hell matters more than themselves anyway?
This reminded me of what happened, back when I was in high school when I was still attending an exclusive Catholic school. There were a lot of homosexual relationship in the academy but only a few were caught. As far as I can remember, all they did was call these girls (the ones accused) and their parents, then have them counseled (1st, the guidance counselor then the priest and a few nuns) and separate their classes together. Fair punishment, I must say!
Unless they were making a public disruption, the school had no right to kick them out. Off the top of my head, I can list at least five lesbian/gay/bi-sexual kids who made it through private Catholic high school.
People who say all sins are equal in an effort to have something like a homosexual lifestyle excused often retract that statement when something terrible has been done to them. Because quite frankly, while God may see it this way, we as humans living on Earth can not, and should not. We as a society must punish sins and violations to different degrees, because if we didn't there would be complete chaos. So while God may be just as upset that I lied to my mother about brushing my teeth and the girls being lesbians, it would be ridiculous for us humans to see it in that way. Not everyone in this world adheres to God's values, and as Christians we must learn to accept that. And if you don't want to, blame the liberals. They're responsible for separation of the Church and State in the first place.
If this falls under the school's rights, and as a Christian school it absolutely should, then what's the big deal? I feel like a lot of these blogs are intended to stir up useless discussion. And especially considering the school is in the "Left" coast, there really is no argument once the judgment has been passed.
I agree with the schools actions wholeheartedly.
The kids knew the rules of their school. Hopefully this did not come as a surprise.
My thoughts are that the school should have some kind of policy stating that "if you come forward first, before you are caught, and seek counseling, we wont kick you out."
Obviously no rules or system will be perfect in any case.
My main thing is that for us, Christ's love does not mean the removal of all consequences. In this circumstance, if the girls truly repented later, you can still dismiss them from school as a consequence for breaking the rules so that you maintain the proper respect for your rules throughout your organization, but then you may still provide counseling and personal support to help them get through these things and learn how to deal with it properly. You don't, on the other hand, want to teach them that breaking the rules is ok and has no consequences-- there is already too much of that in our society as it is.
I went to a Christian school, and kids could get kicked out for premarital sex, heterosexual or homosexual (but usually, they only got found out if the girl got pregnant). As far as I understood, just being gay couldn't get you kicked out of school. You had to actually have sex. (But then, seeing as the only way most people got caught having sex was if the girl got pregnant, you could probably have as much gay sex as you wanted and get away with it.)
I think the schools do have a right to make their own rules, but the rules should also be reasonable, as in they should be rules that prevent students from becoming distracted from their studies while they are at school, not arbitrary rules to get people to conform to a certain image. If a couple is making out in the back of the classroom, that's disruptive whether they are gay or straight. If two people just happen to like each other and they aren't disrupting the class over it, then why is it anyone's business?
And why do so many religious institutions act like being gay is the worst thing you could possibly do? Kids suffer a lot more damage from being around people who ridicule them or humiliate them than they could possibly suffer from being around someone who happens to be gay. If you're going to kick people out for being gay, then why not kick out the people who really are causing real problems at the school, like the ones who bully the other kids so badly that some of them end up in therapy for years to come trying to get over it?
@ilovemusic1594@xanga - The "Liberals" were responsible for separation of church and state?? Not hardly; actually, it was the Founding Fathers. They didn't want this to become another England, where one religion ruled and you were not free to choose your faith.
Thomas Jefferson, primary author of the Declaration of Independence, was a firm believer in separation of church and state...quote: "Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and State," Letter to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
Why should they have to go through counseling? To cure them of their "gay-ness"?
God. Christianity gets dumber every day.
@Shy___Away@xanga - I was equally put off by the 'counseling' comment.
I have not read the details behind this situation, but I will suggest that the school acted because the girls denied their conduct was sin, or sinful. Sure, that can be debated by those who feel the opposite about homosexual behavior (and I do not post to enter into that debate), yet the private religion-based school can make the decision. If the conduct were deemed as 'sin' and the girls refused to agree such is sin and change their behvavior, then why are they at or even welcome at the school? I do not assume that the school acted quickly, but gave the matter some deliberation and tried other steps before the ultimate result.
Did you read the article, or did you hear it from another source? The article was not biased. Just because it's from San Fran doesn't mean you should assume it being biased.
If the school sees itself as a church, or an extension of a church, then by all means they ought to exercise church discipline. Jesus compared sin to yeast, and we are warned that a little yeast works its way through the whole batch of dough. Jesus didn't just come to hang out with sinners and love on everybody, He came to call sinners to repentance.
After the church was established at Pentecost, we see many letters written to rebuke and correct various bad behaviors, and not all behaviors are given equal treatment. When it came to blatant sexual immorality, Paul practically shouted at the Corinthians to "Expel the wicked man from among you!"
Of course, if the school is just a school, then none of this applies.
@mikenpeg@xanga - I thank you wholeheartedly for your comment. Ignorant accusations frustrate me.
@unabridgedtales@xanga - You're welcome, and ditto to your second sentence.
Hm. So I guess gay kids shouldn't get anything from Christians...let the secular world educate them, feed them, clothe them, deal with them. That'll show them Jesus! Way to go Christians.
@ilovemusic1594@xanga - Yes. Everyone in California is left wing. And everyone in Texas is a cowboy.
This is silly. But what do you expect from conservative schools? As a die hard liberal I expect this level of bigotry from religious schools. It's what they do pretending that they have righteous standards when all they do is force some form of legalism on people that the religion doesn't apply to.
p
@ilovemusic1594@xanga -
I think in addition to the reasons you listed, this sin can be contagious. There are a lot of kids in public schools who "try out" homosexuality because it is treated tolerantly, and thus viewed as a positive option - a view many in our culture like to push. I agree that counseling is in order, but the school acted in wisdom to remove the girls first. That sort of counseling really belongs to the parents and pastors.
@grace_not_linda@xanga -
Ahh, thank you! And your writing is beautiful. Amen.
@subSacred@xanga -
I'm just so sick of sarcastic comebacks. I didn't say everyone in California is liberal. However it is the Left coast. Just like the South is "Republican," although there are literally millions of flaming liberals. Get it straight. What I'm talking about is in the historical sense, statistically speaking, and what the polls show. California IS liberal. Which is why it's pretty incredible that something like this actually happened. I would have figured too many people in power to make that change would be liberal. Not necessarily average citizens.
well, the actions of that school reflect the reasons so many people thing Christians are overly judgemental and just plain homophobic.
if they were really Christians, they would have, like you said, tried to show those girls the "error of their ways" (put in quotes because i don't think they're in error, but religious Christians would).
it's just sad, really.
@ilovemusic1594@xanga - Statistics actually show that California, with it's Republican governor, is just about evenly divided. The whole Prop 8 situation demonstrates this quite while. California consists of much more than Hollywood and San Francisco.
Nonetheless, dealing with homosexuality in a well informed, just, Godly manner is neither an issue of liberal nor conservative politics.
In my opinion disrupting the education of these girls in this way is not a well informed, just, Godly set of actions.