Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in his book "
Ethics," talks about what we should do when God gives us a command.
Just like a child and their parents, when God gives a command, we aren't to stop and consider the command; instead, we are to execute on it. If you have stopped to consider it, you aren't in obedience. Instead, you are judging God's command, and in essence, you are declaring yourself to be God, or to be above Him. This is the same as Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. Eve questioned God's command and she chose to disobey
after having judged God as not being Lord over her.
Obedience doesn't require judging the command. It instead requires obeying immediately without stopping to consider.
Do you obey God when He calls, or do you judge His command?
True
Comments (18)
so... if you think God is telling you to kill someone, you shouldn't take a second to analyze that?
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - I was going to say the same thing.
What if it is the devil disguised as god? Then you are in trouble. if you believe god gave you intelligence for a reason then use it.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - @Pcgecko85@xanga - I'm in agreement with you both. Sometimes you need confirmation that it came from God.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - @Pcgecko85@xanga - That is actually precisely what Bonhoeffer was getting at, and he used the story of Abraham and Isaac as an example. And that is why Bonhoeffer, a committed pacifist, joined a conspiracy to assassinate Hitler.
But you're right about the fundamental problem. Was God really telling Bonhoeffer to assassinate Hitler, or did Bonhoeffer take the idea into his own head?
I think it's foolish to not question any command, whether it be from parents, employers, "God", or any other litany of potential commanders. Your parents aren't God, and they're going to fuck up things, and if they're like my parents, after they've fucked stuff up, they'll try to pretend nothing bad happened, and just keep doing it the same way over and over again, until your life is an utter shithole. I think it's appropriate to question, and even refute a command in these circumstances. I also think it's appropriate to question a command regarding manslaughter, or any sort of "something bad is going to happen to your fellow man if you do this" command. If the reasoning for it is not apparent to you, ask. This goes for kids too- how else are they supposed to learn? The goal in being a parent is not to control your child until they're eighteen, it's to teach your child how to operate on their own, and this includes teaching reasoning. They won't always agree with you, but it's in their best interest.
I'm okay with entertaining the prayer of "If this cup may pass..." and discussing Creator God's will/plan with him like Moses, Abraham, and others did. I mean, why not? I don't see how it is wrong to make sure commands come from Father God by testing them against scripture, a faithful witness, and whether or not it brings creation (or elements of) closer to God. If it is truly of our Father then it'll be proven true. The Spirit guides us. We can act in faith like Abraham, but only if we know who the command is coming from like Abraham did.
@SirNickDon@xanga - I think Bonhoeffer said that it wasn't of God that he did what he did, but he couldn't bear not taking action.
@too_pretty_to_die@xanga - @Pcgecko85@xanga - @notjus4ne1@xanga - I don't think Bonhoeffer meant not to determine if the command was from God, but to not question a command from God.
The Bible is full of examples of good people questioning God. Moses did it all the time and Lot's exchange with God attempting to bargain for a few good people in Sodom is a classic.
And raising kids to blindly follow commands is how dogs are trained, not human beings. Once children are able to reason, a loving parent explains the reason for things.
And this is precisely the way God has treated us. He has given us Commandments, but he has lovingly given us the Church and the Bible to explain them.
yeah, i'm pretty much in accord with everyone who's replied thus far. you can read plenty of examples in the bible where people thought they heard god telling them to do something, and it was completely wrong and unethical and against all the principles that the son of god stood for.
this is IDIOTIC. COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY AND UTTERLY INDEFENSIBLE TRIPE.
and worse - it's DANGEROUS.
how do you know it's God?!?!
how many SERIAL KILLERS and MASS MURDERERS and SUICIDE BOMBERS do exactly what they do under the pretense that "God told me to do it".
THIS IS WHY PEOPLE HATE RELIGION. AND THE RELIGIOUS!
and if you hear God tell you to kill YOUR first born, and you obey that voice, i want you locked up and horse whipped for being an idiot before i lock you up for the rest of your life.
QUESTION EVERYTHING. your religion gives you NO EXCUSES. you do not and you MAY NOT check your fing brain at the door.
jin
@jinchoung@xanga - ...darn. You said it all for me.
I agree, we really shouldn't question it when God gives us a command. However, I think a lot of the problem isn't always that we question the command God gives us as whether or not God is right to give it to us, but more that we question whether God really gave it to us. It is sometimes confusing to be able to figure out if it is God who is giving you a command. :/
I think a lot of people do struggle with this in one way or another, though, so its good to address it. :) Good post.
@tracezilla@lovelyish - Thanks. I do understand the need to know the command is from God. However, once we know it is we must commit to it. Sadly others didn't see what I was trying to say in the post.
which brings us to a truly lovely situation where those who are most convinced that God is talking to them are probably least likely to be actually hearing Him.
i stress again - NO ORDER is subject to obedience without DEEP, CRITICAL THOUGHT... no matter where you think it comes from. in trying to magnify God, you diminish the very real power of the human mind and how truly fing nuts (psychotic, sociopathic, neurotic, delusional, etc.) people are.
remember kids - DOUBT IS GOOD. especially if it's telling you to kill mummy and daddy.... : P
jin
"great minds..." : )
jin
I'm a physics grad student at UC Berkeley, and we get our fair share of preaching on campus. I once engaged a woman in conversation about just this topic: If God Almighty asked you to sacrifice your son (say his name is Isaac or something), would you do it? "In a heartbeat," was her reply.
Yikes!
When I asked her about the implications this has for schizophrenic Christians, she put her hands up and proclaimed, "Schizophrenics are possessed by the devil!"
Double yikes!
I think that @MagisterTom@xanga is misunderstanding what @jinchoung@xanga is saying. It's not that you shouldn't carry out God's will, but that you should be absolutely 100% certain that it is indeed God's will that you are carrying out. It is in this sense that the commands and your subsequent actions require deep and critical thought, not immediate (and blindly idiotic) compliance.
Moreover, isn't it reasonable to use the nature of a command to speculate about its (potentially divine) origin? For instance, I would be hesitant to attribute a command to light my son on fire to a benevolent and loving God--unless, that is, the God that I worship is sadistic and requires human sacrifice of children as evidence of my ultimate obedience.
In fact, I believe so strongly that no God would command a parent to murder a child that I wouldn't even allow such a defense to be used in court. Would you?
@jinchoung@xanga is right on another count: The capacity for blind obedience and unquestioning faith make me terrified of the religious, whether they be Evangelical Christians or Radical Muslims. From executing abortion doctors like Dr. George Tiller to suicide bombing in the Middle East, the will of God is used all too often to justify and motivate intolerable acts of violence.
The real miracle would be if the Holy Spirit could inspire patience, reason, and humility in any of God's sheep. Patience and reason: Stop and think before acting. Humility: Consider the possibility that your bad ideas aren't actually inspired by God but are rather the product of your own self-righteousness.
@jim_the_american@xanga - >terrorist fist bump<