Tuesday, 29 December 2009
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Did You Ever Believe in God?
"If God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that's okay, he's God. He can do whatever he wants. Anyone who adheres to this philosophy has had his sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the opposite."A couple days ago, I was trying to remember exactly when the moment was I stopped believing in god. I don't know if it was the time i realized Santa and the Easter bunny weren't real, as I've heard many people before explain, or some other monumental life changing moment that just doesn't seem too relevant anymore.
All I know is I remember going to CCD (I was raised Roman Catholic) at my church St. Thomas since first grade until eighth grade. I remember going to mass once in awhile, and just sitting there trying to make myself believe, but I never really did.
It was kind of like a big lie; I felt like everyone was just pretending to believe. It was almost like a giant surprise party every Sunday, where I felt like sooner or later, everyone was going to jump out and be like "Just kidding, we don't believe in god! This is all fake!"
Its not like I always felt like that either. I mean, sure, I was always bored in church until about third grade. I would literally be the kid who would fall asleep mid-sermon on Sundays on either my sister's or mom's lap. Before first grade, I would just be the small child screaming and crying until my parents just finally decided to stop taking me.
But then again, I do remember one of the only times I actually had a good feeling of spirituality. I was in third grade and it was after my first communion.
I actually felt like god was coursing through me like blood. But honestly, I always had my dad say, "As long as you live under my roof, you're Roman Catholic," so it really could have just been my little third grade self excited about finally doing something he would be proud of me for.
After then though, I got older and it all just seemed like everyone around me really believed, when I just kind of sat there; the lone nonbeliever, looking for something to do while these people prayed to their "god" for an hour.
I would search for my friends, peaking around random praying bodies, and pretend I had to go to the bathroom three or four times a mass out of sheer boredom. I also remember tracing the patterns on the front of church books to waste time.
So, I don't know. I've always been a lot more interested in the concepts of different religions, as far as their beliefs and rituals go and as far as a society goes, because I'm interested in people and why they do the things they do. Otherwise, I believe Marcus Aurelius said it best:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories o your loved ones. I am not afraid."
Why do you believe in god? Or why don't you?
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Comments (122)
I can relate with your boredom with church and church folks. I've felt that way often as I grew up. Boredom with church was probably a bigger problem to me than how God conducted himself in the Old Testament. I think I needed to distance myself from it for a while, see myself without the lens of the church to be able to understand who I am without God and who I am with God. The recovery of my boredom and loneliness was made possible through a personal revelation of how relevant and necessary God is for life and society. That's how my spiritual life revived. Living as a Christian, for me, has been a trying, stressful, and enriching experience. (Sometimes life does gets boring. But boredom is useful. I notice, for example, that it's when I'm extremely bored that I must work most creatively. It stretches me out in a good way. This may have not helped you.)
You recall falling asleep or otherwise not paying attention in church when you were growing up, so my question to you is, did you ever try to research your religion, or other denominations, before realizing it wasn't true? Have you ever tried to read the Bible in an attempt to understand it? Faith isn't something that can be determined by feelings; even the most devout of Christians throughout history have faced doubts and had questions. Faith is trusting in God even when your emotions play tricks on you due to life circumstances. I would encourage you and everyone else who doubts the validity of faith by doing a bit of research and soul-searching, if you haven't already done so. You may be surprised at what you find.
I do not believe in God.
The only reason I believed in God was because of my family influence and my hopes for a just God.
I realized years later that just because my family believes or says there is a God does not mean there is a God.
And just because I wish for a God does not mean he will exist.
@sarahzthoughts@xanga - faith is not trusting in God when your emotions play tricks on you due to circumstances.
FAITH is believing in a system without reason or belief without truth
You cannot validate your "faith" because then you would not have faith in God. The only reason people say to have "faith" in God is because all research points God does not exist.
The ultimate test of faith is believing entirely and whole-heartedly without evidence or proof.
Otherwise, your faith is not legitimate.
Very good post! :)
@Kara_K - That may be Webster's definition, but in Christian theology, my definition is just as valid. You can have faith in the goodness of your friends or family even if you feel they have let you down in some way, as imperfect humans tend to do. It's the same with God (minus the part about imperfection): Christians have faith that He exists even in the moments when He feels far away.
Everyone has faith in something, even if it seemingly defies reason. And for the record, there is no way to prove OR disprove the existance of God. The scientific method isn't the only way to prove something.
Did you even read the rest of my comment about doing some honest exploration before coming to the conclusion that there is no God? You say you only believed because your family did...but that's not a reason to disbelieve either.
@Kara_K -
"The ultimate test of faith is believing entirely and whole-heartedly without evidence or proof.
Otherwise, your faith is not legitimate."
That's rubbish. Even Jesus says to his disciples to believe in him based on their relationship with him, or at least based on what they've seen him do. You're strawmanning faith to be something that it is not. Faith comes from the word pistis which means assurance of something... as in "he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
@Kara_K - The ultimate test of faith is believing entirely and whole-heartedly without evidence or proof. Otherwise, your faith is not legitimate.
One cannot have true faith in God without first becoming reasonably convinced that he exists. Our capacity to reason is what allows true and sure faith to blossom.
A huge problem with religious education is that it leaves adolescents in the lurch just when their capacity to reason and question begins to develop.
It's like you go from the Lion King and Alice In Wonderland to Black Hawk Down and the Ruwandan Genocide in a heart beat. It's no wonder that intelligent, thinking young people raised in religious families head for the tall grass.
Another person saying why they don't believe in God. Another person saying they don't need God. Another person who thinks their idea of "good" is better than God's. I see a theme here...
@sarahzthoughts@xanga - Thank you for correcting me. You are right, there is not evidence that God exist or does not exist.
Rather than say research, soul-searching would be the only option. For you, yourself, have just proved there is no research or valid evidence that proves God's existence. And as for the word Faith. There are several meanings to this word. Your logic or reasoning is fallacious, a logical fallacy known as equivocation. The use of the same word and mixing up the multiple meanings.
@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace@xanga - there is actually no solid reasoning that would convince a person he exists or to even believe in him.
@nyclegodesi24@xanga - I am not strawmanning the word faith for something that it is not. I am taking the word for what it is. Oddly enough, for such religious people, I do not think you understand what faith actually is.
Rather than say have faith, why don't you say you're just assured of his existence.
Otherwise, I am not a fan of long battles and replies. They are rather useless. People just want to vent, feel empowered, and belittle those who threaten their beliefs. This will be my last comment. For those who reply to my postings without the intention of the three reasons I have provided please do not feel offended. I am still interested and will read the posts.
@Kara_K - "I do not think you understand what faith actually is."
Then, what is it? In the N.T., the word, pistis, is the same used to describe evidence, like in the works of Aristotle and the likes. What's your basis for defining faith as it is used in the bible?
"why don't you say you're just assured of his existence"
Perhaps I should. Let's just all do that. Thank you for your input.
I'm not trying to belittle you, it's just annoying when people tell me they know that I'm just full of blind faith. I'd like it if you didn't assume I had the intellectual capacity of a two year old, especially if you don't use evidence in supporting your own claims. K, thanks.
We've found no empirical information that proves the existence of anything supernatural. No evidence of fairies, unicorns, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus - or of God, Allah, Zeus, Thor, Odin, Buddha, Vishnu, etc. Of course, supernatural means "above nature" and therefore probably won't have empirical proof, but I will not place my trust in something without evidence that supports it. So far, nothing proves the existence of any kind of supernatural being.
But even if science cannot verify or disprove the supernatural, it can estimate likelihood. Richard Dawkins makes a logical argument why there almost certainly is no god. One argument shows why the origin of the universe could not have been complex, let alone intelligent:
1. Complex things do not form spontaneously but instead form from simple beginnings. A baby does not start out fully-grown but instead as a bundle of cells. Tornados don't just pop into existence but develop from specific factors like air pressure and temperature.
2. A designer must be at least as complex as that which it designs. So God would have to be as complex as the universe.
Since complex things must form from simpler beginnings, and the creator of the universe must be complex, what formed/created God? As Dawkins states: "How could it ever have been a good idea to postulate, in explanation for the existence of improbable things, a designer who would have to be even more improbable?" (italics mine)
I don't believe in God because I prefer believing in things with evidence, and there is no evidence of any god(s).
@nyclegodesi24@xanga -
From many many many bible dictionaries. The definition from the religious aspect.
The warrant or ground of faith is the divine testimony, not the
reasonableness of what God says, but the simple fact that he says it.
Faith rests immediately on, "Thus saith the Lord."
Whatever God (or his son Jesus) says is true, then it is true, whether the reasoning is flawed or not.
Just because the word in pistis is used for both evidence, assurance, and faith does not mean they are all equivalent in definition and meaning. Odd fact of the day, Pistis in the Lithuanian Language means sexual intercourse (in more, of course, vulgar terms). If this is your evidence or reasoning of logic, I fear you are only trying your best to prove me wrong because of your perceived assumption that belittles you.
A two year old may be willing to believe in Santa Claus.
Adult are willing to believe in a God.
Your intellectual capacity is not being compared to a two year old's.
Your belief in God is being compared to the imagination of a two year old.
You may very well be full of blind faith. Throughout your many years believing in God, you search for reasons to believe in God even if they are illogical, so that your belief in God does not appear unreasonable. As people grow more attached and loyal to a cause or belief, reason cannot even shake them from their imagination or devotion. Ego plays a part.
If not for the Holy Spirit removing my nature to suppress the truth in unrighteousness and my worship of the creation rather than the Creator I would not believe. But He chose to remove my heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. Only then was I able to "see" His work in all of creation and even begin to comprehend all of His purpose in why things are the way they are.
i have never believed in the existence of a god.
Well you know, I would answer but I don't think there's anything about me you don't know.
Good post.
When I was a kid I believed in god, but I also believed in santa clause. Eventually I grew up and realized both were fairy tales. Death is a hard concept to deal with for some people, and if a promise of an after life helps you sleep better at night more power to you. I am content with the idea that the end is the end. It doesn't keep me up at night.
@Kara_K - there is actually no solid reasoning that would convince a person he exists or to even believe in him.
Yes there is.
There are various ways of approaching the existence of God reasonably. The problem is that people who insist on being unreasonable devise erroneous modes of thought that make thinking about God impossible.
We were created to seek God. Our intellect and free will make such a search natural and ultimately successful.
@Ex_Adyto_Cordis@xanga - I don't believe in God because I prefer believing in things with evidence, and there is no evidence of any god(s).
Whether you know it or not, you have just expressed a preference to remain ignorant. Freely choosing to remain ignorant means that you have made a decision not to learn.
Since God created us in his image, it is natural for human beings to want to learn, not remain ignorant. The last time you came here your brand of limited thinking was thoroughly discredited.
The entire universe if full of evidence for God.
Dear OP,
I will be praying for you, and if you would ever like to talk about this, please feel free to message me any time. I grew up with a similar faith experience (even with the rule of "if you are under my roof...!), but as you can see by my profile pic, things changed.
To me, faith is a very personal thing. If you ever listen to peoples testimonies on how they became Christians, they are always different. God can call to us at any point in our lives. We just need to be ready to see this calling. I myself come from a non-christian family. I only ever went to church towards Christmas with my school to sing carols. But I can always remember having this thirst, this thought that their has to be more to life than this. I didnt do anything about it until I was 15, when I met a Girl. She was totally different to any other I had been out with. I found out she was a Christian. This re-lighted that desire to learn more and I asked if I could go along to her youth club. I went a long and started to learn about Jesus and what he has done for us. The thing that swayed me to become a christian was what was Jesus's motive?
First of, it's hard to deny that Jesus exsisted. If we look back at several historical documents (Not just the Bible), they mention Jesus. An example of these documents (if you want to look them up are:
- The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more
Christusaccurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious
“Christians” (from
, which is Latin for Christ), who
Annalssuffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius,
chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named
Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (
15.44).
- Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (
Extant Writings, 18).
- Pliny the Younger, in
Letters10:96, recorded early Christian
worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as
God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love
feast and Lord’s Supper.
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The Babylonian Talmud(Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus'
crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ
of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
And I could go on. Visit the following site for a full list:
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-jesus-exist.html
So for me learning about Jesus, what he did, how he behaved, who he was is what brought me to God.
Do I still have questions? Yes. Do I still Fail? From time to time. But the fact that God sent his Son to die for us was the ultimate sacrifice.
@nyclegodesi24@xanga - Check out this article and let me know what you think.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8817
Grace and peace!
~Michael
AGH! Another sad example of confusing the "church" with "God". It's a wonder kids find God at all after sitting in the hard pews with their parents, stand-up--sit-down--recite--yawn--confess--recite--kneel--etc.
Of COURSE the style and language and ceremony of a previous generation's church do not resonate with the youth, but the CHURCH is NOT "God". God is the master chameleon who can meet you in a place where you fit in, speak in language you can understand, and touch your heart in a way that no hard-bound hymnal or stale liturgy ever will.
A teenager in my church put it this way: My friends go to church with their parents and think, "So this is God... he's not really all he's cracked up to be". I come here [our contemporary Methodist service], and I truly find God. He speaks to me through music I love, words I can understand, and people who are like me.
I'm not saying that you can have a total relationship with God WITHOUT a church--I'm just saying that churches come in many flavors, and I would encourage you to "taste and see how gracious the Lord is..." before you confuse your particular church with the total package of God.
We have a church in our town that is held in a movie theater. You walk through the hall, and on the right, the marquee says "Resurrection Rock", and on the left it says "Resurrection Country", and further down, it says "Rez kids". There are three flavors presented by one "church", but the message is always the same! You show up in jeans, they pass popcorn buckets for the offering, and the sermon shows on the big screen behind the band. For some people, this would feel like blasphemy, but for others, it is God making a house call and meeting them where they are.
You are going to need God one day, and he will be there the whole time,
longing for you to notice him. It doesn't mean you have to go back to
the church where you didn't find him in the first place to look for him
again.
I can relate to doubts, most religious people have as many doubts as
non-religious people they just make peace with them. Whether that makes
us crazy or noble is a matter of perspective. I think there's a couple
things to keep in mind.
1. Belief in God is natural, whether it's logical or not is an entirely
different question. Though, it's very possible that people have varying
abilities to believe. For example, Christopher Hitchens who's brother
Peter Hitchens is a devout Catholic may be an example of such a person.
2. I honestly, believe that the only intellectually tenable position
on religion is that one should evaluate religion based on how it
affects society and themselves personally and while you might get a
different perception based on popular media this is the majority
opinion among academics.
3. Everyone believes in something that is far fetched at least on its
face. Even though for example, I believe in evolution, it's hard for me
to understand based on my life's experience how my genetic ancestors
could have been non-human primates, let alone sea animals or single
celled organisms.
4. Finally, even though this will sound harsh, I am going to say this
because I sense that your an intelligent and open minded person who can
learn. Specific religion aside for the moment, saying that there is
moral, logical and spiritual consistency to the world whether correct
or incorrect is not the same as saying that someone breaks into every
house in the world and leaves presents one day a year and only petty
dogmatist like Hitchens equivocate the two. Making illogical and
ridiculous comparisons like this undermines your credibility and at the
best makes you look closed minded but more likely makes you look
unintelligent and unwise.
@Pcgecko85@xanga - You don't believe in God, yet he is always on your mind. You are content with your end, yet I always see you in this blog corner.