Monday, 28 December 2009

  • Pastors and Language: Is It Okay to Yell and Cuss?

    "Who the hell do you think you are?" That's what Mark Driscoll, pastor at Mars Hill Church in Seattle, yelled to his congregation in a sermon, "Marriage and Men" (link is to sermon), a week ago. He was directing it to "men" who don't treat women right.

    Mark was referred to by Donald Miller, in the book "Blue Like Jazz", as "the cussing pastor". Aside from using "hell" outside the context of the firey place we all deserve to go, I've never heard Mark cuss, and I don't know if he has when preaching or not.

    Please listen to the sermon, and the one before it if you have time. Regardless of how you feel about the language and yelling Mark made some very good points.

    Trial: Marriage and Women
    Trial: Marriage and Men
    The links are to video, audio is also available.

    What do you think of pastors that yell? What about if they yell something like what Mark did? Is it okay for pastors to cuss? How about from the pulpit?

Comments (45)

  • TheGiantSlayer@xanga

    I swear, but I am upfront about the fact that is wrong. The fact that I am upfront about it being wrong doesn't make it right either. 

  • Lordv16@xanga

    I don't think cursing is in the bible. But it's whatever, not like anyone actually follows its word anyway.

  • TheGreatBout@xanga

    Stanley Hauerwas uses "cussing" language as well and he uses it because he was raised using that language and because he finds very clever ways to use it that challenge his audience. I don't think it's too problematic but at times it can be incredibly problematic. Discernment.


    It seems that anytime the topic of cussing comes up on Revelife we conclude that we should be more concerned with holy words than culturally taboo or edgey words. I've got bigger beef with Driscoll than the fact that he uses four letter words that upset the pious.

  • SirNickDon@xanga

    @Lordv16@xanga - There is actually a good deal of offensive language used in the Bible, both Old and New Testament.  It is used because it is offensive.  Sometimes offense is what is called for.

  • SirNickDon@xanga

    @TheGreatBout@xanga - Yeah, like the fact that he wears suit jackets with trendy t-shirts.

  • nodnarbassoon@xanga

    I definitely had a blog of mine published here on Revelife a while back that asked the exact same question, and in fact, also refered to Pastor Mark.
    Being a member of Mars Hill Church, my opinion on the matter is that 1) Mark's language has toned down a LOT. and 2) in the cases that you mentioned, the Marriage and Men sermon specifically, the tone was right, and absolutely necessary for the topic at hand.
    In fact, I know someone personally who is married now BECAUSE of the Marriage and Men sermon, and its harshness.

  • ShimmerBodyCream@xanga
  • deepestrecesses

    @TheGreatBout@xanga - I do agree with the last part of what you said-- I have bigger beef with Driscoll than the language he uses.

    However, as relevant to the post: I am of the persuasion that the instruction given to Christians to "be above reproach" (Phil 2:15) is of the kind that would discourage a Christian from swearing-- regardless of whether or not the Christian is a Pastor or not. 

    I have a very different take on a very common (and applicable) scripture in James 1:26 which does state that "If anyone thinks himself to be religious" (a term used in the manor we would use the label "Christian") "and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless."

    I take this in a way that not only speaks about cussing, but about all speech in general.  Our words may be many or eloquent, but if not bridled by truth, humility and purity, then they are a defilement.

    So, I suppose the short answer is that it doesn't matter if he's a pastor or not; if he's a Christian, he should bridle his words with holiness and all the attributes of God taught to him by the Holy Spirit.

  • leadworshipper82

    the way he presents somethings are controversial... I frankly enjoy listening to him partly because he doesn't cater to the culture mentality.  He has said dropped some distasteful words from the pulpit... but it was in his early years and he admits that it was wrong and he's repented of it.  He's grown since starting and planting Mars Hill Church and you can see it if you follow his sermons throughout the years...


    @deepestrecesses - i would say though that sometimes truth must be delivered in such a profound way that if you do bridle yourself too much, you may just bridle the Holy Spirit from say what needs to be said.  Martin Luther eluded to sin in such a way that made his listeners gag because he presented it in such a disgusting way as to deter people from sinning and sadly the art of that has left the pulpits to deliver a "tasteful family-friendly happy-go-lucky" message that the culture tends to accept.  So... more or less, sometimes the purity OF truth must be delivered with unbridled tongues at times when it is necessary...

  • foxes_have_holes@xanga

    If you consider the nature of an expletive, you will find that it presents extremes. By using it, a person can convey the most effective and powerful form of communication that their language allows. If a Christian claims that God is the most powerful "being," than shouldn't they use the most powerful and extreme language when referring to God?

  • sarahzthoughts@xanga

    I think a person's intent behind the cuss words matters more than the words themselves. While I don't recommend it, using cuss words like that pastor did to prove a point is probably better than using the same word(s) to tear someone down. But cuss words themselves are constantly changing. Today's kid-friendly word "poop" may become just as deviant tomorrow as its 4-letter equivalent.

  • deepestrecesses

    @leadworshipper82 - I believe there is a significant difference between painting sin as sin... even with color... and using profanity to illustrate sin.

    I've seen a great deal of wisdom in the writings of James and I've seen the effectiveness of that wisdom when put into practice manifest itself in ministry.  I still remain unconvinced that James would be so bold in telling his readers to bridle their tongues (especially in the context in which he says it) if it were not true.  I am only convinced of one thing which is that if the Holy Spirit worked as you suggest, perhaps James would not have given a command that would hinder the Spirit so much.  His command would have followed along a different line. 

  • leadworshipper82

    @deepestrecesses - maybe not profanit per se... but colorful and poignant enough to do what is necessary to get a point across especially if it's applicable to the congregation.  The example in question w/ Pastor Mark is that he dropped hell in his rant at the immature and abusive men sitting under his teaching... and it wasn't in reference to the place... so how would you suggest the bridle of the tongue in that moment?  Especially when the point of that magnitude MUST be made...

  • TheGreatBout@xanga

    @SirNickDon@xanga - That's definitely on the beef list. It's right up there with being John Piper's fanboy.

  • ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake@xanga

    I teach kids, I would not use Hell as a word in my discussions with them, if I was not refering to the place. I might be more inclined to say "What  on earth are you thinking?" then say  what Mark said.


    Having said that, I am not a member of Mars Hill, I am not Mr. Driscoll's mother, I am not his boss, or on the church board. Basically I don't have a dog in this race and if his church is not upset by his language, it means one of two things


    1. His language is okay.


    2. His church is full of people that could care less.


    if it is two, then he might want to think about why they don't care and addressing it in a future sermon.


    Btw, I realize I said I don't have a dog in the race, but we were asked by the blogger to say what we think.


    I think if it was full of adults and no children were present, then it is okay to use the word Hell in the context that He did. I might not have, and it may be a little strong, but I personally don't mind him using the word Hell in this context.

  • Such_Were_You@xanga

    It is proper to use profane language when describing profane things.   As I've said before..."We're okay if a couple of teenagers are "doing it", but when they start "fucking" all hell breaks loose."  


    @TheGreatBout@xanga - Some would argue being John Piper's fan boy is better than being Greg Boyd's.  I'm not a fan of either, but if I had to pick, Piper would win hands down.   I Like Boyd's stance on America not being a Christian nation, but can't think of any other reason to like what the guy says.   Let's not forget, "one man's treasure is another man's trash," and vice versa.     

  • myfanwe@xanga

    Whatever. I don't really have an opinion on this as I am neither a member of this man's church, nor am I perturbed about/by cussing. Words are just words. None is worse than another in and of itself. It's the power we give them that counts.

  • TheSutraDude@xanga

    In my opinion this guy is no Christian and if I was sitting in his church my reaction would be to get up and beat his head into a pulpit. The Tony Sopranos of the world have anger management problems because of the way they were raised too. There were real mafia people in the area I grew up. It was "accepted" behavior because they went to mass, or at least their wives and kids did every Sunday but to me even as a preteen I had enough sense to know there was something wrong when kids got expensive birthday gifts that "fell off a truck". As for cussing sermons? People who cuss are usually trying to intimidate others in the only way they know how. I guess when we see Christians being urged by ministers to bring their guns to church cussing is relatively mild. Then again, listening to this stupid piece of shit cock sucker cussing at women and children....I'd still kick his fucking head in.


    Do you think if Jesus attended this asshole's church he would just sit there and listen like an obedient dog? I doubt it.
  • tau_1@xanga

    well, I leave to just say Jesus Christ....Remember most so-called pastor are only human. However, I can just say home and read or go sometime to hear all types of language, but we have to choose what we want to hear and believe..

  • LoBornlyte@xanga

    I've been to more Masses with more different priests then I can count.  Not a one ever yelled or used profane language.  This contrasts greatly from the brotherly conduct of priests at the dinner table where lively discussion might even include salty language.


    The priest stands in for Christ at Mass which is a rememberance of the Last Supper. As a result the proceedings are done with the maximum reverence.  All priestly language and demeanor glorify God through the ceremony of the Mass.


    The Protestant Sunday go-to-meetin' is entirely different, however, and isn't bound by the formality of religious ceremony. Since the success of the Sunday go-to-meetin' is preacher-centered and music-centered and not Christ-centered its success depends on the charisma and stage craft of the performers.

  • FilmCritic19791208@xanga

    This may not cover all possiable examples, but yelling is are result of an outburst of anger, rage, etc.  which is a fruit of the flesh.   We should always pursue the fruit of the spirit, so I'm going with not ok.

  • too_pretty_to_die@xanga

    when someone cusses around me, i think that one of three things is true:

    1) they don't find the words offensive, and don't really care if others do (making them insensitive)

    2) they're trying to get attention (making them annoying)

    3) they can't come up with a better and more acceptable word to use (making them dense)

    if the Son of God he believes in so deeply didn't cuss when he preached, i don't see how it's intelligent of him to do so... there are better ways to get someone's attention. 

  • musterion99@xanga

    @TheGreatBout@xanga -  I've got bigger beef with Driscoll than the fact that he uses four letter words that upset the pious.

    I'm not very familiar with what he teaches. What's your biggest beef?

  • SamEwing@xanga

    Of course it's generally not okay for a pastor to cuss. However, christian's loss credibility when they fail to realize exceptions. The words he used towards men who beat their wives are far too kind.

  • TheGreatBout@xanga

    @Such_Were_You@xanga - Some would say that. But those people would be wrong ;)

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