The title is paraphrased from magistertom's question which was much longer, so here is his official question:
"Ephesians 5 says 'wives, submit to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands'
Is this a cultural thing, or is this something that Christians should apply today? How should this apply in marriage? And how should this apply in a dating relationship?"
Short Answer:
No, this is not a cultural thing. Yes, this is something that Christians should apply today in marriage and to a lesser degree, in their dating relationships.
Long Answer:
So, first of all, I believe this is not a cultural thing because of the way the passage (Ephesians 5: 22-25) continues to say that:
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. "
Therefore, I feel that saying that women should submit to their husbands is a cultural thing, would by extension then mean that husbands loving their wives would be a cultural thing, which I'm sure we would agree is not true!
Is it something that should be applied in marriage? Well if it is not a cultural thing, then I would say definitely it should be applied, but
both parts must be applied. Although 1 Peter 3 says even if your spouse is not a Christian, you must still try to fulfill your God-given role.
But how would this be applied in marriage? I feel that although the woman should be submitting to her husband, this does not mean that the man does not listen or respect her opinion. The way my dad explained it to me when I was a lot younger (so bear with the simplification) is that they discuss everything, but my dad makes the final decision. With that, he also takes the blame if it was a bad decision, whether or not it was originally my mom's idea. In the same way, he can take credit, although the smart thing to do would be to acknowledge my mom's contribution.
If we look at what Ephesians 5 says, although the woman is to submit to their husband, the husband is to love her as Christ loved the Church, and Christ loved us so much, he took all our sins upon him, and died for them. He paid the debt we owed, and paved a way for us to enter into a great relationship with God.
Deviating from the passage and looking at 1 Peter 3: 1-2 (which Mark Driscoll has some awesome messages whose links I will stick at the bottom of the post), we can see what is expected of wives:
"In the same way, you wives must accept the authority of your husbands. Then, even if some refuse to obey the Good News, your godly lives will speak to them without any words. They will be won over too by observing your pure and reverent lives."
However, to the husband Peter also says in 1 Peter 3:7:
"In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your equal partner in God’s gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered."
So although women must submit to their husbands, husbands should also honor their wives. This means that the husbands, while leading and having their wives submit to them, should be doing so in a manner that honors their wives.
Within dating relationships, obviously this should be a bit different. For men, I try to submit to my boyfriend in small things, like where we go for dinner, or if he says he doesn't want me to wear a certain shirt or something. If he said don't go to this university, since we're not married, I would not submit to him in that, or at least not just because he said so. I think of it like this: when I get married, I am not all of a sudden going to be a super wonderful submissive wife (considering my independent and outspoken nature, whether I ever will become this is doubtful, but we can pray =P). Therefore, I should practice it now, at least in the smaller, less important things.
Even now, whenever my boyfriend asks me to submit to him (not quite in those words of course), it has mostly been for my benefit, because, like in the case of the shirt, I was attracting attention that I was unaware I was getting, and that he knew I did not want. In the cases where it wasn't, it didn't hurt me either, like where we go for dinner.
Naturally, in no situation, marriage or dating, do I approve of abuse, in any form.
I know a lot of people won't necessarily agree with me on this, and that's okay. If you are going to comment, whether it be in agreement or not, I ask that you be respectful, both to me, but also to other commenters.
Here are the Driscoll links I mentioned:
For women: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/trial/marriage-and-women
For men: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/trial/marriage-and-men
With that said, how do you feel about this issue? What does it mean to submit? What are the practical implications of this?
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Comments (64)
I think alot of the bible is outdated personally...I think husband and wife should share equal responsibility, and should both honor eachother equally...no one should sumit to another...you shouldn't tell another what to do, unless it is your opinion, and only an opinion and it is to look out for the other person.
I've been having alot of issues lately relating to religion...it's been really hard to have the faith I had several years ago...
I don't think I would subscribe too much to what MagisterTom says, he tweets while driving
. Anyway, I believe that the man in a relationship is, and is meant to be, the head of the household and the leader of the relationship. I understand that the case can be made that there is nothing natural about that and it is probably true; Emperor Penguins, meerkats, and bees tell us that. However, for humans, it seems natural and we have existed as a patriarchal society for a long time with decent results. Submit seems like an odd word and I don't know if I am comfortable with it, but I agree with the premise.
if Scripture says submit... then we can either obey or disobey... i think many a person on here would judge the Scriptures based upon their own prejudices rather than having Scripture judge them... if it irks them, rather than trying to say, "Oh it's just some archaic book that's outdated." they should maybe look into why they feel that way. What may seem outdated may actually be the MOST relevant of all to govern our lives...
but isn't that the way much of the culture ignorant of what the Bible says? Oh, except for the fact that they know the whole "submit" verse... but take it completely out of context and then blow it completely out of proportion and then go off on some tirade that makes them look foolish...
if ppl in the culture understood what this verse communicates... it'd be much different... but since when are people in the culture open to listen to what the Bible says....
I submit requests to men, they obey them like the good little doggies they are.
Where did Christ say women should be submissive? Oh wait, he didn't.
Jesus - 1.
@The_Pyrate_Wenches_Ramblings@xanga - I've been having alot of issues lately
relating to religion...it's been really hard to have the faith I had
several years ago...
Why?
I'd be glad to answer any questions you might have, and to pray for you. A reply here, or a message would be great.
@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - Are you implying that the writings of Paul contradict Jesus?
SHOULD women submit to men in relationships? The short answer: no! They SHOULDN'T! If its a rule or law a woman is attempting to follow than no, as we're told that the law (ie starts with 'shalt' and 'should') only brings death (1 Cor 15:56).
But if through self healing and awareness one discovers joy in submitting...and an understanding of what 'submitting' actually means...than praise God for then one is no longer held bound by written law, but has chosen life...and will experience true joy (not some hard to understand intangible, detached from real life sort of 'joy', but honest-to-goodness authentic JOY)!!
Do you realize the amazing moment in which we live? For the first time in all of human history (millenniums), women throughout much of the world enjoy an unprecedented status of equality within society. Its only been a generation or two that this has been the case. Its an exciting time...for you as women...and for me...and my brothers. I and many of us are so FOR you...as you navigate what this can mean for you...and us together! What is the hope for you to more fully experience your femininity...in freedom from mysogony! You and we haven't arrived, but what an amazing view from this vista on our shared journey!!
Praise the living God!
@MagisterTom@xanga - Of course.
i dont think that dating is really addressed as in that culture and time, dating wasnt something that really happened. it's a relatively new thing in the scope of history. what you describe here however, is excedingly rare. relationships today are mostly a pearls before swine proposition. i dont know if i would like to see the church actualy start taking these things seriously or if i would just feel more bitter and cheated. not that it matters how i feel. the point is, sadly, most churches these days preach independence and non-submission, and of course allow for men to be unfaithful.
@god_stories@xanga - Praise God and feminism! Sing it!
I think it's more important for spouses to have a mutual respect for the other, because only then is it possible for decisions to be reached in an appropriate fashion (that being, *not* the man saying that that is that because he's the man).
@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - Ha. Very nice.
My husband and I are a team. He's not my boss and I don't have to do anything that he says if I don't want to. We work together and we wouldn't ask anything of each other that the other wouldn't be comfortable with in the first place...so why use the label of submission?
Nope.
i couldn't disagree with you (or mark driscoll. don't get me started) more vehemently.
@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - @god_stories@xanga -
@LauraG0929@xanga - @Oh_Perkele@xanga -
I was writing a comment on why I agree with the passage in Eph, and was explaining it to you... However the comment got to be ridiculously long for a comment, so I just posted it as a blog insted. I hope you take the time to read it. I'm happy for discussion- so long as the discussion is respectful and mature. Rudeness is a major pet peeve of mine...
God Bless you all!
Taylor
@FirstxChairxOrchxDork@xanga - I don't see your blog post.
Husbands and wives should make every effort to see eye to eye and agree in a marriage. I do not believe that a wife must ultimately submit to her husband. The inclusion of these passages in a book we're still using today speaks more to the misogyny and patriarchal power of those who chose the content more than to any inherent rightness of the passages.
Which can be found here
@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - Sorry, I don't know what happened... I just checked. It should be there now :D
I agree wholeheartedly with your viewpoint. (which is Biblical). The word "submission" is a dirty word in today's culture, what with feminisim and all. And yet, the biblical understanding of submission is nothing short of beautiful. Besides, Christ was the ultimate One who submitted .....He submitted to be born of a lowly woman, he submitted to leaving behind the glories of Heaven to take on the sin of all mankind. Marriage is about MUTUAL submission. A good relationship is servitude towards the other. There is no "dominance" in marriage - only mutual submission, in a loving relationship that mimics Christ and His Church. When we "chafe" against submission, all we need to do is remind ourselves of our Saviour washing the feet of others and dying on a cross. In gratitude, I'll gladly submit!!
@leadworshipper82 - A lot of people say that we take the verses out of context when they are blatantly misogynistic, but I don't really buy it. You have to interpret the bible very liberally to pretend that the verses don't obviously consider women to be less than men. It is also plainly factual that around the times and places that the bible emerged, women had very little rights and much lower status than men.
I don't really buy that loving wives necessarily makes them equal by biblical standards. You love your children but are they equal to the head of the household?
@nicolevw@xanga - If this is so, then how come the bible doesn't tell men to be submissive to their wives just as often? Instead of how it never says for the man to be submissive to the woman? The only verse in the bible I can think of that claims men and women are of equal status is one verse by Jesus.
There's no need to kid ourselves here:
Corinth. 14:34-36: "Let your women keep
silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but
they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they
will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame
for women to speak in the church.
"
1 Tim. 2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in
silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp
authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed,
then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
"
Hell, Leviticus even goes to state that menstruation, a natural biological process, is a sin, an "unclean" "sickness." And Deutoronomy has the wonderful insight that women who are not virgins by marriage are punishable by death, while mentioning no such law for the men, who, if they tire of their wives, they can dispose of them by getting rid of the sheets on which he first went unto her, and then claiming she wasn't a virgin.
For people to pretend that the bible isn't clearly misogynistic, I can't offer any other answer rather than cognitive dissonance.
The relationship between a man and his wife should be symbolic of the relationship between Jesus and His bride, the church. It has nothing to do with the man or the woman being "better" or less equal than the other. The woman submitting to the man is symbolic of the church submitting to Our Lord, to show her commitment to her faith. Likewise, the man is love his wife as Jesus loves His bride, the church, to the point of giving his life for her, should that become necessary. That is the way I believe the Bible means it to be.
@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - well... if you believe that Jesus is the Bible Incarnate... then He actually DID say wives submit... and He did it through Paul... so therefore, He kinda did... but I suggest you keep reading... it might give you some valuable insight on the context of what this phrase is talking about... if you're willing and open-minded enough... (i'm not trying to sound cheeky, if it does come across that way, I apologize... the downside to digital conversation)
@redshad@xanga - couldn't have put it better myself... though I would add too that Jesus submitted Himself unto His Father... and so to be like Jesus would be to emulate that kind of submission... then u read in Philippians how Jesus was exalted from His heart motivation to submit... so too women who emulate Jesus will be like that as well...
no.