What about...
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There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, ...a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace." -- Ecclesiastes 3:1-3, 8
How does the Christian pacifist deal with this passage? Does this scripture teach that there are times that it is proper to kill, hate and make war?
People often read Ecclesiastes 3 and take away that Solomon is saying “There is an appropriate time to kill, hate, and make war” when he is actually saying “There are times of killing, hate, and war.”
These verses are not granting people permission to make war or hate just as they don’t grant permission to be born or die (after all, who needs permission for birth or death). A sober reading of this text will show that Solomon is speaking of the way the world is and not what is appropriate action for believers.
If we say that this passage is an allowance for hate, killing, and war then we must also say it grants allowance for every activity under heaven (aka on earth). Hopefully we would all agree that not every activity under the sun is permissible for Christians.
Jesus tells us in his Sermon on the Mount that peacemakers are the children of Father God (Matthew 5:9), that if we remain angry and insult brothers we are hell-bound (Matthew 5:24) and that hate ought to be replaced with love (Matthew 5:43-44). Killing, hating, and making war are antithetical to the way of Christ Jesus. Even
if Solomon were saying there is permission for such things, Jesus has rebuked such teachings with his own.
Do you agree that the passage is not saying there is a time to make war? How do you interpret it?
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Comments (20)
What, then, do you make of the verse shortly to come after, "He has made everything beautiful in its time"?
While this set of verses is more observational than preceptorial, you cannot necessarily jump to the assertion that it is inappropriate for believers to perform these things. Your conclusion doesn't fit the unity of the passage, which appears to be more descriptive of the appropriateness of God in causing these things to happen, which may or may not involve believers.
Your statement that Jesus "rebuked" these teachings is absolutely astonishing. Really? Show me the evidence where Jesus has ever rebuked/contradicted a teaching in the Old Testament. He certainly gave new laws to enhance the original intent of the old, but to say "rebuke" is to suggest a rather disturbing interpretation of Christ's teachings... unless you hold that Solomon's words do not constitute "law" per se, but even that's a stretch.
@WasaiWarrior@xanga - I don't think I jumped to such an assertion butnstead pointed to the teachings of Christ who instructs us not to hate but to love, to not kill but help and heal, to make peace and not war. I believe the words of Jesus surpass those of Solomon. I believe Creator God can make anything beautiful (in time) but that certainly doesn't mean humans are permitted to hate, kill, and make war. There is a great divide of righteousness between the creator and his creation. Father God is right to command and do whatever it is he decides and we are right to be faithful.
I meant that Jesus rebukes the teaching that to hate enemies, make war, or hate are permissible. I don't think this passage teaches that (as I stated in the blog) because this passage is not one of teachings as much as poetic observation. Jesus' teachings rebuke a reading of this passage that says it is permissible for the children of Creator God to hate, kill, and make war.
Interesting observation.
Would you possibly think that an alternative understanding could lead to saying that this verse may be speaking about Gods plan throughout time?
In other words-- God clearly had Israel destroy and wage war on nations. During this time of nationality for Gods people, He had war waged. During the time now, when Gods people know no national boundaries, the time of war is presently ceased and the time for His people to be peacemakers has come?
What I just listed is certainly not an exegetical interpretation-- it's far from it; the context of this is not even written in prophetic language. However, it would not be impossible for the man of wisdom to have looked into this and seen that God has his plans when his people are to come to war and times when they are to be in peace. It's certainly not beyond my comprehension to think this could be possible.
As I do not see Jesus rebuking the OT text I think a more appropriate endeavor is to know whether Jesus had seen the fulfillment of said scripture and issued in a new beginning, or whether the scripture actually aligns with Jesus' teaching.
What I wrestle with is the fact that Jesus rebukes murder, not killing; neither did he command Roman Centurians to stop being soldiers.
Because I AM a pacifist (always have been by nature-- I do not like violence), this challenges me and I am beginning to re-evaluate whether or not War is the topic of Jesus' teachings or, rather, personal violence and killing towards each other???
Anyone's thoughts?
@deepestrecesses - I'd say that's possible. If it is in an ainaccurate reading I think it's still a true statement in general. We can obviously see that there were times when God of Israel waged war with with people and so on. There has been holy hate and killing as well (hate for sins and such). But Christ reveals to us what is happening now. I think Creator God has always met us exactly where we are at and done what he could to bring us back to a place more appropriately in line with his will, even if it meant not acting within his own ideal for a time, for our sake (for his glories sake). I'm sure that sounded confusing lol.
I don't see Jesus rebuking OT text either. I think Jesus was concerned with peacemaking in every way possible.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - Yes, as do I believe Jesus was concerned with peacemaking. I think it is what he wanted for us because he knows the nature of the Spirit and of the Spiritual and He came to enable us to take on a "new life".
What I have difficulty understanding is how a text from the scriptures of Christ, even of God the Father, can be used to encourage unjust acts of violence.
I might not say that a Christian cannot be a soldier... I admit I still wrestle with this a lot... but as I come from a background of hard-core; completely red-blooded Republicans, that are already talking about "revolution" and all that junk, I am just amazed at how these types of people will try to ignore the teachings of peace and submission that Christ taught.
To me, we never deny our beliefs or faith-- and if a government becomes so unjust that it begins to persecute a Christian, then the rightful place of the Christian is amongst the persecution.
Anyway.... I'll end that rant before it goes to far.
I find this topic a good one to discuss and challenging. I do not yet have the answers to it.
Thanks for posting.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - Revelife is driving me crazy, posting all these XCCP posts in a span of three days. They even made my Violence of God post featured twise. Did they make XCCP a sponsored site now?
Starting tomorrow, my Sunday school class is going to be reading Ecclesiastes. Three chapters or so a week.
@TheGreatBout@xanga - Thank you for the clarification, though your original post did seem to indicate an understanding that Jesus would have rebuked Solomon, in which case I think you'd engage in a case of eisegesis by assuming pacifism to be the true and guiding principle rather than the meaning of the text itself, which is by no means as definitive as either of us would like it to be.
Speaking of which, still no answer to my original question: What do you make of the phrase, "beautiful in its time"? I'm very curious.
The way people spoke back then is very tricky to understand, which is probably why the NIV Bibles are now so popular in comparison to the KJV Bibles. And I'm sure that some of it gets lost with the further translation, as well. So, I definitely agree that it could be interpreted this way, even though it doesn't seem so if you take it at face value. Then again, you can't take many things in the Bible just as they sound. I'm sure it extends to this kind of thing, too, in many instances.
It would make more sense if Solomon were saying it the way the post interprets it. However, as the post also pointed out, it doesn't matter so much if that isn't the way it is supposed to be interpreted, because Jesus Christ's teachings would've negated it if Solomon were actually saying that there was a time when such violent acts were alright and condoned.
So, really, it doesn't matter either way. :p
we take description as prescription WAY too often. honestly.
@SirNickDon@xanga - I sent them the three but I expected them to get spaced out. Oh well. Ecclesiastes rules. Tell them I said Hi and that I miss them.
@WasaiWarrior@xanga - Sorry I thought I answered that. I think that is speaks to the truth that Creator God can make all things beautiful and that with the tool of time he can bring good from the bad just as manure can become fertilizer. My comment to deepestrecesses might be of some use in answering this. Overall, God is just and can do what he pleases and it will always be beautiful. I like the line that follows; "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end." The works of Creator God are always good, even if they are less than his ideal. Honestly though, I'm not sure I have a confident answer for you. I hope you'll settle for this lol.
@SirNickDon@xanga - @TheGreatBout@xanga - I didn't want to have to post them so close together, but post submissions are down, so I'm trying to make do with what I'm given. Sorry! I'll do better next time...
@TrumvilleOrbison@xanga - Agreed.
The time of war comes when marauder comes. We have no control over that. And soldiers kill best when they hate the marauder and the marauder is just plain hateful.
Just as we have no control over the seasons, we also have no control over the marauder who comes like a thief in the night.
That is why there is a time to kill and a time to hate and a time for war. Turn, Turn, Turn.
One needs to look at the context of the ancient world. War is pretty much the norm, as nations strive for superiority. War often has a cycle; battles are often fought in spring when conditions are ideal and rest in winter (cyclic peace-war). The author of Ecclesiastes (be it Solomon or not) is simply stating the reality of human history.
Overall, the passage is talking about the futility of the mortal human life which is seemingly meaningless.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-faith/fc-warperspectives.html
There is and will always be a time for war, unfortunately. If possible, be at peace with all men. If possible being the qualifier.
livehttp://www.christiananswers.net/q-faith/fc-warperspectives.html
@LoBornlyte@xanga - So Christians should not only be willing to kill, but willing to hate? This gets harder and harder to justify as Christian.
@SirNickDon@xanga - So Christians should not only be willing to kill, but willing to hate? This gets harder and harder to justify as Christian.
We must accept the season of killing, hating and war when it comes whether we like it or not. They are truly a seasons of hard times. The Christian soldier who experiences this season literally goes through hell.
Because in giving his own life for his brother he must be forsaken.
That is why soldiers are to be cherished and given the deepest respect.
Matthew 24:5-7
"For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You
will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not
alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."
Just as Solomon reflected on past wars, and Jesus prophesied of new wars, we can pretty much assume that wars will always happen regardless.
But look in Joshua 6...
Verse 22-24
"Joshua said to the
two men who had spied out the land, "Go into the prostitute's house and
bring her out and all who belong to her, in accordance with your oath
to her." So the young
men who had done the spying went in and brought out Rahab, her father
and mother and brothers and all who belonged to her. They brought out
her entire family and put them in a place outside the camp of Israel.
Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the
silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury
of the LORD's house.
But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who
belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to
Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day"
Then verse 27
"So the LORD was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land."
Joshua and his army burned the whole city and everything in it. We know there were people in it because they spared Rehab and physically removed her from the city before they burned it.
But the Lord was with Joshua, so we know, given Lord's command went into this battle.
So I would say given Lord's command, there will be times when followers of Christ will go to war. Or God might use other people of this world.
Matthew 24:6 NKJV And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled: all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
So Jesus answers that there will be wars and in wars people die Solomon spoke of that also. Jesus talks about loving your neighbor, but He also states the fact that wars have been and still some are to come, before the end. Revelation talks about warring against the saints. It also speaks about those that have died for the name of Jesus, that's called murder. Everyone has there say, but what really counts is not what you think that the word says, but what it actually says. We don't have to read between all the lines of scripture, and yes the Holy Spirit brings interpretation. But the word says that there is a time for war, and whether you like it or not war will be here from time to time until our Lord comes.